Your kidding right? How could someone NOT come to the same conclusion about your post? I didn't distort anything so please don't accuse me of it. As a reader, I came to the conclusion that you were disagreeing with the OP's and not just sharing your opinion. If not, my mistake... I look at MM and Techron like vitamins for your engine. Do they make a difference? I have proof they do. For instance, if you are familiar with Saab, you know that many followed the recommended maintenance to the tee. They were rewarded with sludge that rendered the engine unusable. On my Saab, I've been using MM and Techron and have not seen any issues. As a matter of fact, my mechanic was amazed at how clean the inside of my 10 year old engine was.

Yes, I have the Cyclone Rake off the wall. I'm looking forward to using it. Thanks for asking! It's been dry here in the North East so the leaves are falling early.

I still have the opinion that you don't understand how mulching leaves is not practical for some. Do you really want to drag up that thread again ;-).

-gh

"How could someone NOT come to the same conclusion about your post?"

The conclusions that readers draw are their business. Compare your post with my post. You gave your experiences and opinion. I did the same. What's wrong with that?

"I didn't distort anything so please don't accuse me of it."

Here's what you wrote.

"So are you saying that ALL the folks that have had problems with their upper end (OP's point) is due to LACK of recommended service intervals and all these units are stored outside?"

I didn't say any of those things. If you don't call that a distortion, you don't know what distortion means.

Forum Readers, I'd like to make a correction to my earlier post. I wrote "ethanol" but should have written "gasoline containing ethanol".

-Deerslayer

Did I SAY anything was wrong with posting opinion?? Talk about distortion. I ASKED you a question to make sure MY conclusion was correct.

Thanks for the laugh Deerslayer! You clearly know what denial is ;-)

-gh

Greenhobby, you can distort a person's position by asking a question. Here's an example:

"So are you saying that EVERYONE can ignore service intervals and can store their tractors outside as long as they SQUIRT "MYSTERY OIL" in their gas tanks periodically?"

I don't think that's what you meant. Just like you didn't think I meant what you asked. I believe that you posed the question for effect and to distort the facts. "You clearly know what denial is" (your words).

Remember that the OP wrote, "The thing about additives, after a while, you begin to wonder, if they are really doing any good." I simply stated that I haven't used any additives and my tractors have operated a long time. I attributed their long life to following service recommendations and storing them inside. I really don't think that my statements are controversial.

I think the readers have had enough of this ridiculous debate. I've made my points and you've made yours. I'm willing to let the readers decide who needs therapy.

-Deerslayer

"I think the readers have had enough of this ridiculous debate. "

I'm glad you think so... I'm thinking a simple answer to my post would be "no, that isn't what I was saying, here is what I meant...".

I think the readers know who started the ridiculousness.

done...
-gh

"I think the readers know who started the ridiculousness."

We can agree on that.

-Deerslayer

I think I belong to the "it can't hurt" camp. I'm not sure what the ratio of MMO to fuel is, but I suspect that buying a can periodically would not bust the bank.

Let me ask this--does anyone know of any reason that using these additives would cause problems with our engines?

Let's all have a good weekend.

"does anyone know of any reason that using these additives would cause problems with our engines?"

I haven't read an engine owner's manual yet that recommends using additives. Some specifically state not to use them. In these cases, your warranty may be invalid if you use them.

Below is a clip from the B&S V-Twin Owners Manual. Look under "Recommendations". Later in the manual, under "Fuel" it states "Do not mix oil with gasoline". I interpret the statement as including both two cycle and oil based additives like Marvel Mystery Oil. Others may interpret it differently.

-Deerslayer

{{gwi:346849}}

I've never heard of "clean oil" damaging any part of an engine. Excessive oil could foul the plugs.

Maybe, it's the "brother-in law" effect. ... brother-in-law makes and sells replacement parts. ??

"I've never heard of "clean oil" damaging any part of an engine."

If the "clean oil" changes important properties of the recommended engine oil (e.g. viscosity), damage may result.

-Deerslayer

That could be true in the crankcase. However, I don't think, oil added to the fuel would be a factor in changing the properties of the crankcase oil. They do say it can be added to the engine oil, however I'd question that.

"I don't think, oil added to the fuel would be a factor in changing the properties of the crankcase oil."

I agree that oil added to the fuel won't change the properties of the crankcase oil. As I stated earlier, B&S also recommends not adding oil to the fuel.

-Deerslayer

So, what can we imagine "adding clean oil to the fuel" could harm?

How come, if I don't modify the "subject" of a follow-up, it gets rejected and what's the work around?

With 4 stroke engines, anything that burns in the combustion chamber, in addition to the requisite gasoline and air, generally leaves behind deposits.
'Blow-by' of lube oil is inevitable, usually causing unwanted carbon, and other deposits in the combustion chamber.

"Stuff" (Oil) for lubrication/heat transfer works best when it's not burned.

Mike

"How come, if I don't modify the "subject" of a follow-up, it gets rejected and what's the work around?"

That only happens when you have two posts within a short time frame. I don't know why it works that way but my work around is inserting an extra space somewhere in the original title. The extra space gets dropped when displayed. Sometimes when a debate gets heated, I add three or four spaces so each of my responses appears to have a different subject.

-Deerslayer

tmajor...

I had to chuckle frequently while reading through this thread you started. Kudos to you, my friend...for maintaining your cool. I wonder if we should start another, but related, thread...possibly "What percentage of tractor owners display evidence of hazardous testosterone levels".

Good grief....what a pathetic display of egoism your post elicited. After your initial observations, things went downhill in a hurry, didn't they?

Anyway, tmajor, thanks for your sane responses. I thought your original post was a good one. Too bad it turned into what it did....sadly more and more common on this forum, where we used to share our ideas and experiences cordially.

Hal

Yes, things are really dead since LB59 isn't posting ... have to take what we can get.

Hercules, if you think I was out of line, please tell me where I went off track. I genuinely want to be a good member of this forum.

As I see it, I simply stated my personal experiences and gave an opinion. The next post was an abrasive question that I believe distorted what I wrote. I agree that my view may be biased...so please tell me what I did wrong.

-Deerslayer

Well, we don't know exactly what MMO is, as it's a "mystery". It might be oil or a solvent. Or both.?

It's been around since 1923 (longer than most of you proud tractor owners or your tractors)and has a pretty good history and some good testimonials.

I've never seen or heard a bad report about it, except that it may not cure a blown engine. I'm still of the opinion "that it can't hurt". The owner of a Harley, which I bought, used it since new. While I didn't use it all of the time, I did add some, when I thought about it and never had any problems with the Harley. (This was a Harley build for leaded fuel, but was using unleaded.)

You can read the MMO history and testimonials below.

Here is a link that might be useful: Marvel Mystery Oil

At the risk of getting flamed again, I'm going to present another perspective.

Cause and effect sometimes can be very difficult to determine. For example, after a shipwreck the survivors were asked, "What did you do that saved your life?". Nearly all responded, "I prayed".

One may draw the conclusion that if you are in a shipwreck and you pray, you'll be saved. More than likely, nearly everyone on the sunken ship prayed for their life. However, only the survivors were alive to answer the question.

Here's another example, I'm sure most people have seen old movies where dowsers use Y-shaped sticks to find water. What most people don't realize is that in many parts of the U.S., you can find water regardless of where you drill. Believe it or not, some people still think that dowsers are responsible for finding water.

TMajor, I offer the following as a possibility. Isn't it possible that you wouldn't have experienced any problems with your Harley without using MMO?

For those of you that would like to read an informative article on the subject, here's a link:

Oil Additives

MMO is specifically mentioned. The article is fairly long so you may want to skip to the conclusion. Here's a quote from the conclusion:

"In the case of oil additives, there is a considerable volume of evidence against their effectiveness. This evidence comes from well-known and identifiable expert sources, including independent research laboratories, state universities, major engine manufacturers, and even NASA.

Against this rather formidable barrage of scientific research, additive makers offer not much more than their own claims of effectiveness, plus questionable and totally unscientific personal testimonials."

Flame away guys!

-Deerslayer

"Isn't it possible that you wouldn't have experienced any problems with your Harley without using MMO?"

Yes, that is possible. I do, however know of many, who were concerned, due to the unavailability of leaded fuel. Many had the valve guides changed to bronze. How many did have or would of had problems, is anybodies guess.

I'll read the link, which you provided later, as it's bed time. .. I think, I'm down a quart on MMO.

"I do, however know of many, who were concerned, due to the unavailability of leaded fuel."

The article mentions that the unleaded fuel problem was a valid concern 30 or 40 years ago but it isn't any longer with the newer engines.

I need to go to bed, too. I'm driving to the Illinois - Penn State game tomorrow. I need to get up at about 5 to meet friends there at 10. Go ILLINI!!!

-Deerslayer

Hope PSU kicks butt!

I read the article. They are talking about "engine oil additives". I still think, help can be attained on the top end through fuel additives.

Naturally the manufactures don't want you to add additives. Why?? IMO two reasons. One they want to sell you parts or another product after the warranty runs out. And they don't make any money off the additives so they are not interested in anything the will prolong the life of there product. After all some of us guys keep Shyt running for ever. An "ever" don't generate any revenue for said companies.

I think it's a personnel choice, an individual has to determine wheather it does what it says and have the mechnical aptitude to determine if it will do harm.

IMO the mistery is out in MMO IMO it's mostly automatic Transmission fluid or maybe that was a trickle down product of MMO, transmission fluid has been added to oil and gas ever since they got mixed by accident in the early 50's long before computer control devices when everything was mechincal. For us old gear heads that still remember how to adjust solid lifters and install points we know which additives are rip off's and which ones does some good.

Big daddy Don Garlits (Quote in articles he use to write in wheeler dealer mag.) use to add transmission fluid to his dodge tow truck in the 60's. He say it has sealing properties and it will seal both ends of the combustion chamber by adding it to the gas and oil. Beings he was a mechanic and drove across the county several hundred times sealed the bliever in me in the 70's. But, Like I said it's and individual choice.

Let me first say I'm new to this forum and don't want to start stepping on old users toes,but I've been the Head Equipment Tech at a private country club for over 20 years,being responsible for over a mil's worth of equipment,from a handful of rotary mowers,weedeaters,chainsaws,and other handheld machines,to riding mowers and others worth up to 40K apiece,plus backhoes,various tractors,and trucks. I have almost as many diesels as gas engines,from air(gas)to liquid cooled.
I've always followed the manufacturers recommended service suggestions,never use additives,and only use Sta-bil on the ones I know aren't going to be started from Oct/Nov thru Apr/May and don't need to be serviced during the winter. The rest I fill with fresh fuel and run for a bit to be sure the batteries are charged completely. These I bring into the shop at some point during the winter,therefore they're run several times during that period. Doing things this way,I've never had starting problems due to bad fuel or premature failures. I just had one 4 cyl Ford engine in a 1990 Toro Groundsmaster 345 turn 6000 hours. It doesn't burn or drip a drop of oil. I've never even had the valve cover off. I have several other engines,both gas and diesel,with over 3 and 4000 hours on them. Not a problem!!!

OK. So it seems, that some or most have no problems with "upper engine" premature failure. This has been credited to regular prescribed maintenance.

The conclusion to that would be, the ones with engine problems, simply didn't perform the correct maintenance.

To help those guys get through life, what should they have done with their engines, beyond changing the oil once a year (typical homeowner)? And if they haven't been doing the prescribed maintenance, is there anything they might be able to do, to get a couple more hours from their neglected engine?

"The conclusion to that would be, the ones with engine problems, simply didn't perform the correct maintenance. "

Careful tmajor, I tried that conclusion/assumption ;-)

I think it also has to do with how one runs his equipment. In other words, a machine that is "mostly" used to go out back and load wood into cart, and come back into the garage (total run time 3 minutes) would have different maintenance requirements than a machine that is run for hours.

-gh

bob welcome to the forum. You will find alot of opinions, just don't be bothered by others theroies, especially mine cause I'm a bonehead oil changing nerd!!! Years of experience usually stands the test of time.

Now, I have some opinions on products, others may and do disagree, Don't bother me one bit, cause a forum is all about different experiences and opinions and we as forum addicts will never agree on everything.

I'm alittle sckeptal when it comes to stabil I also use it, but can't over look the reports that stabil turns to flakes after a few months or a year or so. For any prolonged storage beyond seasonally IMO I sure wouldn't use stabil to preserve the fuel system.

I had a can of MMO in my shed for 32 years, was lost or hidden behind framing. Naturally I just use it as thread lubricrant or rust cleaner, But It has NEVER turned to flakes. Isn't stabil an additive also, it's also red in color (which I suspect may have some properties of transmission fluid) and not as greasy as MMO????

Again, Nobody twisting anybody arm to use anything. Equipment that get used everyday runs good for a very long time with regular maintenance. IMO it's when you let stuff set around is when you may have problems or change you oil once a year in anything IMO. Some will say I never change my oil, but would you buy a piece of equipment knowing up front that the previous owner lacks knowledge is pre-ventive maintenance. Makes you ask the question what else are they not doing?????

I can tell you this I have NEVER used SLICK 50. But, that's personnal choice for me. Some swear by it. So see there are some additives even use additive user may think is BS or a scam. That's why it's always a personnal choice.

a recent example I ran across was the old guy across the street tossed a weedeater out. I being a scrounger and thinking I can get anything to run had to try it. Well, he used this equipment for a very long time. and yes it was pretty clean inside and out. But that still didn't prevent the connecting rod from wearing out. I suspect he mixed his gas lean with stroke mix or used the cheapest brand he could find. I did get it running, but it wasn't the usual easy fix that I find curb side. Can you tell I'm bored right now wasting time typing all of this!?!?? I have had some say I was DEAD wrong, but I have never had and engine failure on anything. So IMO it's what works for you.

"I think it also has to do with how one runs his equipment. In other words, a machine that is "mostly" used to go out back and load wood into cart, and come back into the garage (total run time 3 minutes) would have different maintenance requirements than a machine that is run for hours."

So, let's take a look at that aspect of operation and failure. What actually happens to make the difference and what can be done to prevent premature failure (we're talking about engine top end)? Even if the "engine oil" was changed every time you went for a load of firewood, I believe the results would be the same. Why do valves, push rods and guides fail?

MMM the article didn't mention the loved "stabil" the answer for any fuel related problems. IMO they should of done the test on 10 year old engines not brand new. brand new engine don't have no sludge, carbon, or tarnish in them. Why would you put a clean up additive in an engine that's not dirty yet????

Stabil IMO is just as bad or worse. It preseves gas at about the same amount of time gas goes bad, after that you have bad gas with lumps in it now.

I suspose carb. cleaners and fuel system cleaners don't do no good either, but if you new computer cars "the ones that don't need no additives starts missing the first thing the dealer wants to do it a fuel system clean-up with a solvent additive""" I guess it depends on who is adding the additive????????????

Good question tmajor. I had a car (mid 90's) that was driven 5 miles daily and the entire exhaust system rusted out (fixed under warranty). The mechanic was certain it was due to not letting the engine truly warm up. He also told me that an engine runs rich until it warms up. For instance the inspection stations recommend that you warm up the engine completly before testing. I'm assuming that this isn't optimal for the top end to always be in this state. I'm only guessing though...

-gh

I think, "warming" the engine isn't the answer, but "heating" it is one key. It's like baking in the oven, vs. setting it to "clean". "Clean" is hotter than baking. I also think, the hotter temperatures have to be maintained for an extended period of time to keep the valves, etc. clean (burned off).

My old boss had a P.O.S. Chevette, which he ran 75 miles at a clip on the turnpike, twice a day. At 200,000 miles, it was torn down, to find everything spec.ed out like new. The front end finally did it in.

Another example, which I just thought of, is a wood burner chimney. Slow/low burning of the wood will cause creosote in the chimney, whereas hot burning will either burn it out or allow the currents to take the creosote out of the chimney. (A chimney fire is damn HOT!)

I was reading an article earlier, where the old timers with flat-heads, would throw rice in the intake, which would take the carbon out the exhaust. My guess here, is that the rice had water content, which loosened the carbon. ?

Next thought: disassembling a carb or engine and cleaning it in cleaner, is "cleaning" ... period. Using the same cleaner, while the engine is running is an "additive". ?? Granted, they won't do the same amount of cleaning. .. but some?

I like the term POS chevette after 200,000 miles a teardown inspection reveal nothing. Vega engines was POS's Chevette engines were some of GM's best at the time. Cast Iron and built like a little tank, I know I also drove one through the late 70.s 80's and finely sold it in the early 90's with almost 287K on it still running good. I will amit the were cramped, powerLESS, and some components were near impossible to change, I've got alot of stories about chevette's including how I got it CHEAP. they got you from point A to B and didn't suck hardly any gas doing it.

Anybody thinking they are not going to do some additive/solvent type clean up on an internal combustion engine don't keep them very long. Heck even yugo's would run for three or 4 years. So IMO I would expect anything else to run twice that long with hardly no preventive routine maintenance. But, to think additives will harm you engine is outragous all pretroleum based product have additives. it's what puts the gas in gasoline and longivity in oils as we know them today. The problem is we have to know enough to not get scammed.

Even water is a lubricant. That's why you can see a engine run with no oil after they put the wonder additive in it and them spraying it down with the valve covers off and it keeps running at low RPM--No heat is building up. I bet if they left the valve cover on it would lock up in a short time.

The rice works like an abrasive blast or "shot peening" to grind and crunch the carbon loose. It's kind of like some of the "particle cleaning processes" that use walnut shell fragments (of various sizes) to clean objects. The rice isn't especially "abrasive", it's just a crunchy solid. I don't hear much about that kind of stuff nowadays. I would not recommend anybody feeding rice to the engines of today. What with some of the valve to piston clearances being only a few thousdandths of an inch, the likelihood of "jacking" a valve open to get struck by a speeding piston is much too great. Hmmmm...but then you'd get the opportunity to remove any carbon with scraping tools after you remove the cylinder head(s) and pistons. Better to use the rice in pudding or toss it at weddings. But I heard that's a no-no now. It seems that birds will eat the rice grains which will then expand in the bird's gut, causing death in some cases. Oh well, just throw Rice Pudding at the weddings (or birdseed).

"But, to think additives will harm you engine is outragous all pretroleum based product have additives. it's what puts the gas in gasoline and longivity in oils as we know them today."

You make some good points, however, I think we're talking about "additional" additives (e.g. Slick 50), not the ones already present in gas and oil.

TMajor, did you watch the game on T.V.?

-Deerslayer

Ahh ... Vega! I have to agree with you on Vega vs. Chevette.

Cousin's girl friend blew her Vega on the turnpike by running it low on coolant. I changed the engine for her .. twice! The first one I put in smoked so bad, you couldn't see the tail lights. Had to change it a second time.

Was a vag attempt of a all al. block and head in the vega. I'm not knocking vega's they make great race cars or transplants for SBC's, as we seen in a "Balwin Motion" Vega's, but you only seen the taillights! I'll never forget the first time I seen or heard a Balwin Vega on DFW turnpike in the mid 70's and I thought my 71 454 SS chevelle was fast.

Deerslayer,

In response to your way earlier plea to have me tell you what you did wrong with your post, it was just that you answered that challenge at all from "gh". It would have been best ignored...not worth the trouble. As I alluded to in my earlier post, I can't believe how egos have taken over from genuine sharing of helpful info on this forum, and that's a shame.

BTW, you did us in, you ILLINI! I think we here at PSU are in deep doodoo!

As you may notice, this response has nothing to do with "Balwin Motion" Vega's. Actually, it's BALDWIN!

Good grief, how many topics have we here on this thread?
~grin~

One lass if you quit pasting about FEETBALL!!!!! dad I spall that write! Smile For good "greef"! Life goes on, it's just a game!

deerslayer, No I didn't watch the game. I'm really not into sports that much. However, I did ask the guy at the store who won. "Ya win some and ya lose some".

Thanks for the feedback, Hercules. I agree, ignoring the post would have been a better approach.

BTW, the game could have gone either way. Illinois made a couple defensive plays that had a major effect on the outcome. Without those plays, Penn State would have won the FEETBALL game. 8^).

-Deerslayer

Or how about just answering the post instead. I in no way meant that as a challenge. I was genuinely trying to figure out what was said. Sorry if I hurt someone's feelings doing it. Hercules I've been on this site for a while and don't take kindly being called an "ego". Seems when someone bucks someone else, the "oh we're not sharing anymore, can't we just get along" crowd comes out. You talk about sharing and ignoring in the same post. wtf?

Please continue with your football...

-"gh"

Getting somewhat back on subject beings the topic is preventative engine maintenance. I consider preventative to include oil changes.

Did anyone notice under the notes in BOLD print on oil recommendations posted by Deerslayer: using syn oil doe NOT alter oil change intervnals????? MMMM I wonder why???!??? My guess is----it still get DIRTY.

"gh",

In case the point was lost, there is a vast difference between disagreeing and being disagreeable. Posts of the second type deserve to be ignored. Period. They add nothing to the knowledge we're in here to gain or share.

With that said, let me add another point...in your favor.

In a forum, or any written communication, there is always the pitfall of misinterpretation of intent. Lacking facial cues and body language to judge by, it's very easy to err on the actual meaning of ones statements. I've re-read this entire thread, and must admit I may have done just that. If that's truly the case here, "gh", you have my sincere apology for my couple of comments.

As a last comment on this, I'd like you to know I've been a member here for a long time, too. I'm not, stress not, one of the "can't we all just get along" crowd. Disagreements help spread information...good information. My problem is with those whose egos get in the way of good judgement. Unfortunately, the numbers of those who choose the style of confrontation instead of civil discourse seem to be increasing on this Tractor forum. Not so on most of the other forums, but surely evident here just in the past couple of years.

Sorry for the long post, but I chose to explain my position here (rather than send you a personal email) in the hopes that it may have some positive effects on the forum.

Once again, my apologies if I misjudged your intent. I enjoy all mechanical things, but I love FEETBALL, too!

Hal

Did we ever come to conclusion, whether it might be good or bad to run a few ounces of MMO through the engine now and then? ... mixed with the gas.

I've always preferred to draw my own conclusions. I think enough information has been presented for each reader to form an opinion.

Based on the article that I posted, the Briggs and Stratton recommendations, Bob Q's professional experience, and my personal experience, I think additives like MMO are a waste of money.

You may come to a different conclusion. We live in a free free country. Everyone has a right to their own opinion.

-Deerslayer

I tear mine down every 50 hours and polish my head.

WB.....I hope you are referring to an ICE on some OPE....If not, that is really "too much information". :^)

Why I am suprised WB can last 50 hours with out polishing the head (in an ^ and v motion) But, remember if you use syn. (which I sure he does) it don't extend the routine 50 hrs. polishing. read the label..

Tmajor,

In addition to following the recommended service intervals I would suspect the following play a role

1) Keep the cooling system clean and at 100% efficiency

2) As note before, operating conditions such as average duration of use could easily play a role.

3) Proper cool down. Most manufacturers recommend that you idle for a minute or more before shut down. This might be key.

4) Typical RPM. Most manufacturers recommend 3/4 to full throttle. Many operators find this advise "odd" and ignore it. But it could be a factor.

5) Design and manufacturing variations. Some engines are built on Mondays! Also some engines are just better designed than others. In some case compromises in design may be necessary to accommodate things like pollution rules. And of course compromises occur to meet cost targets.

Very hard to determine the real causes without a large sample and lots of statistics, so we will never know, I suspect. But I do like the original question!