Doris,
I have the Seed Sowing Guide that T&M includes for free with embarassingly large orders. Verbatim, here's how they define HA and HHA:

"HA-Hardy Annual
these re flowers that complete their life cycle in one year. Sown in early spring, they will mature and bloom in summer, make seed if allowed to do so, then die away. Flowers in this group do not need to be raised indoors but can be sown direct in the garden soil, where their final flowering positions will be in your garden.

HHA-Half Hardy Annual
These also germinate, flower and die all in one year, but require a rather longer period of growth than the hardy annuals. To give them this early start they are sown in trays in early spring and given a warm, light position such as in a propagator, sunny windowsill, conservatory or heated greenhouse.

Half hardy means that the plants are frost tender and must not be planted in their flowering positions outdoors until all danger of frost has passed. To prepare them for transplanting they should be gradually hardened off, in cold frames or a sheltered spot outside (see Hardening Off).

Most of the popular summer bedding plants like Begonias, Petunias and Impatiens are in this category."

Hope this helps.

T&M tends to be a bit cautious in what it calls HHAs. You'll find genuinely tender annuals labeled HHA, but also a few things that fall kind of between hardy and non hardy depending on how hard a frost you get - like snap dragons.

With HHAs, you are safest sowing them after frost risk, but some of the T&M HHAs may actually survive mild frosting. The only T&M HHA's I'll sow before late April are the plant types that have a really good reputation for success with winter sowers.

Most of my HHAs will be started in mid to late April depending on the extended weather forecast, and if a surprise hard frost is predicted after they start sprouting I'll probably give the most tender ones a little extra protection.

Lynda

Seedmama, don't forget that those Cherry Brandy Rudbeckias are considered HHA's by T&M. I won't be wintersowing mine. I'll start them in late Feb here and put them in the cold frame as soon as they sprout.

One question about cold frames and annuals. It's not so much the cold temperatures, but the frost that kills them, right? I mean, they can survive a random freezing night, as long as they don't actually get frosted on?

Ummm, gee Token, I don't know the answer to your question, but perhaps it's splitting hairs? They can't really get frost on them unless it's cold enough. Inside the coldframe doesn't get as cold as outside the coldframe, because ground and air heat are trapped inside. Maybe it is the actual frost. I don't know.

I did all my annuals in succession last year,I started with my hardy annuals and ended with my tender annuals,I didn't lose any doing it this way,I had everything sown by the end of April,I even started my poppies way to early and they still made it. I just marked my containers with different colors to tell them apart at a glance,when we were due for any really cold weather or freezes,I just pulled those ones onto the covered porch and threw a blanket over them,they all made it! :)

Thanks for the great info Lynda and token..Tom right? I had no clue about the Cherry Brandy and was going to ws it,now that is going to the box for indoor sowing! Thanks!:)
~Angie

I'm never quite sure about what annuals can be sown in winter. So far, all I've done is Forget-Me-Nots and Candytuft. I heard those self-sow, I've also heard that about Morning Glories. I'm holding off on those though, I really need those hanging on the fence by the pool this summer, if I hope to have any shade at all to work in!

I think there is some trial and error required here. My first year wintersowing, I too was confused about which annuals I could WS and which ones to spring sow. I used Trudi's database, and also asked about specific plants here on the Winter Sowing Forum that I wasn't sure about.

Even with all of my research, I still had some things I just wasn't sure about. What I did was sowed those in March, then if they didn't do well, I made myself a note to try sowing those in April next time.

This is my third year to WS, and I finally feel like I'm fine tuning my list, but it will be different for each person depending on where they live.

Oh, and another thing that helped last year, was putting all of the containers of tender stuff in one milk crate, so that whenever a frost was predicted, I just carried that crate into the unheated garage for the night. It sure made it simpler than fishing through a bunch of containers for the ones that needed extra protection.

Hope this helps!
Bonnie

Hirts Gardens at Amazon.com lists Cherry Brandy Rudbeckia as: Perennial, Bienniel, or Half-Hardy Annual depending on the winter temperature. That really clears things up! LOL

Pat

I noticed this too, no seed,or very few, list what zone,i was trying to enter all my seed into the site that Kym sent to us, and i had to look most of it up,as they were seeds from the SS,not a lot of info out there as to zones.
I have already sown my MG,they also were from the SS,i hope they make it,( I am z5 Illinois )as i Really want to have these,i thought it was ok to do them now,live and learn eh?
Carol

Oh, and Bluestone Perennials lists the Rudbeckia 'Cherry Brandy' as hardy in zones 5 - 8. I'm planning to sow mine in late March/early April just to be safe.

Bonnie

Here's a link to key words regarding what is ok to winter sow.

Here is a link that might be useful: Catalogue and Seed Packet Germination Terms Indicative of Winter Sowing

I think most rudbeckias are pretty hardy. But with something like Cherry Brandy where it's pretty much THE seed of the year, it makes sense for a seed company to call it an HHA so that they don't end up with a bunch of folks starting them inside and then putting them out early and getting them all frosted away.

You don't want th go from seed of the year to disappointment of the year!

It also makes sense for Bluestone to try to sell it as a perennial suitable for as many zones as possible. And to grow out plenty so that if someone's doesn't overwinter and they bother to complain they can send them another.

With my rudbeckias, I'm sowing them now IF I either have enough back-up seed to try again later (or don't mind ordering or trading for more) or if it wouldn't break my heart if I ended up not having them grow this year. In fact, I'm doing that with other HHAs that have a good reputation for WSing well.

Of course, I'll still sow everything labeled HA first and fret some over whether I'm making the right choice with the tougher HHA's!

Lynda

I might try to wintersow 5-10 seeds of the CBR. I've traded away two sets and sent one as a gift, so I don't have as many as I did. BTW: For those that haven't opened their packs from T&M, mine had 141 seeds in it, not 50. You might be surprised.

they list coleus as a greenhouse annual.

Great info on the HA and HHA Seedmama! That's helpful!

Doesn't Davesgarden/plantfiles tell whether specific plants are annuals/perennials, etc? Now I'll have to go look.

Token ~ from my experience last year at WS'ing, if there's a frost predicted I just threw a twin size sheet over the top of my jugs. :) They were just fine by doing that, then I'd uncover after the temps raised past the freezing mark. I did this w/ all my WS jugs, not just the annuals. Worked like a charm. Seems easier than lifting and moving them elsewhere especially when you get up into the high numbers of jugs! Of course, granted, in our zone we don't STAY in freezing temps for long periods of time.. I'm sure the results would differ in the more Northern zones.

~Wendy

T&M lists all Rudbeckia Hirta as HHA. All of mine have lasted at least 2 years, i.e. at least biennial. Don't pull them at the end of year one, maybe they'll come back. Mine generally stay mostly green, though maybe some slimy or crispy leaves, in winter.

Other Hirtas I've sown in winter, they'll germinated fairly early at low temps, and done well in cold weather. I intend to do the same with Cherry Brandy, though I haven't sown my first seed of any kind yet. Soon, very soon.

Karen

Sassy, I placed several orders before I got the T&M seed sowing guide for free. Now that I have it, I see it would have been worth the $1 or $2 they charge with small orders.

It isn't rocket science and it won't change the world, but it gives me great help on how long certain things need to be exposed to cold temperatures. This is tremendous help as I schedule sowing. Something that needs 3-4 months of cold gets sown long before something that needs 2 weeks. It also puts lots of other tidbits at my fingertips for easy reference from the arm chair.

Seedmama

None of HHA or tender annuals need cold to germinate well, therefore I would not start them early anyway. After few years of growing annuals in our zone I came to conclusion that unless I am happy for my annuals to bloom late summer I do not bother WS them. Or I might want them in succession so I will start some indoor and some outside. Clarkia, schizantus, dianthus, diascia, stock, sweet peas, carnations, pansies will do best in cool weather. Everything else starts indoor if I want to have bloom more than couple of weeks ...

Ellen: I guess that's the difference one zone can make. I checked, my hirtas wintersown in January germinated in March and started blooming by July 4. They keep going through October or even November if deadheaded.

My second year hirtas started blooming in late June

Karen

Seedmama ~ yea that sort of info is priceless! :)

Our last frost date is May 15 (IRC), but you REALLY cant count on it until June 1. And THEN it goes directly to HOT HOT and DRY DRY weather. So if you wait until the "frost free" date, you dont get any of the nice warm "spring days " that the seedlings like. So anything that is frost tender -- doesnt have a realistically have a chance until June 1 and like LindaL said, wont bloom until LATE in the summer. Linda is 20 mins from here so ... we got the same situation.

Im not set up for indoor seed starting and dont intend to get set up for it. This is all helpful, thats for all the comments guys!

:)

Doris,
I didn't send out your seeds we swamped yet, but if I can find the T+M germination booklet for you, I don't use it.
I just updated my 2009 garden journal from notes from last year. When I get a chance I can post what worked for me in the same zone.

Last year was a bummer for planting in May heavy rains, couldn't get into the gardens or fields.

Linda and Doris, I think I'm pretty close to you two... I live on the border of Lake & Cook counties. When can I expect my Morning Glories to bloom? I was counting on them for shade in July and August, is that possible?

yep, pretty close nancy, is it deerfield?

Im in glenview. i cant tell you about the morning glories, the dang rat-bits (or something) ate . I planted them at two-true-leaves and they never even made it to 4.

Dang! I just might cook at the pool again this year!

No, I live in Wheeling, but don't tell anyone, ok?

This is almost depressing news about the CBRs...HHA or even Biennial. (Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't biennial that they grow in season one, bloom, go to seed & die the next?)
Do seed companies tend to err on the conservative side when introducing a new seed? Is that why all the discrepancies on growth habits?

Token- good deal on the CBR seed count from T&M! I'm wondering now if that is why they are being sold on Hirt's/Seedmart as packs of (repackaged into 1x2 plastic baggies) 20: because Hirt's ordered from T&M and got plenty to profit from?!
If my Agway (carries T&M) has them, I'll pick up a pack and give you another random seed packet count.

Ive been to wheeling, izzat where the fish restaurant on milwaukee is, whaddayacallit? .... A memory is a terrible thing to waste....

"Do seed companies tend to err on the conservative side when introducing a new seed? Is that why all the discrepancies on growth habits?"

It depends on how the company makes their money. T&M has a reputation for a broad range of seed types, high quality, and top not new introductions. They also used to have the reputation as highest price, but Park's and Burpee see price increases in the past several year make T&M look quite economical. T&M also seems serious about selling SEED - not garden whatsits and doodads - as you can tell by the fact they they use their Jun 1/2 price sale and their Value Seed outlet to make sure that overstock is sold and grown - not just thrown away.

Then you've got companies like the catalog I got yesterday: Inter-state nurseries. They've gor rudbeckia Cheery brandy on the front page - selling plants for $2.99 each.

Their hardiness claim is zones 3-9 - which is a mighty broad statement compared to most rudbeckia sellers. They also say "although it's hardy, it literally blooms itself to death with an extremely long flowering period and should be treated as an annual."

Accurate? who knows - I kind of think their advertising language is what you'd expect for someone selling CB rudbeckias for $2.99 each. At that price you'd want to sell a bunch of them, make them sound hardy for people that want perennials, but also give a some kind of excuse for why it might not come back AND be sure to suggest that the customer rips them out at the end of the growing season so they can buy more next year.

I don't know who "Inter-state" is affiliated with, but the paper of the catalog looks a lot like it could be a Michigan Bulb offshoot. Either way it's going for the same market - which I expect is very different than the customer base T&M goes after.

My experience with T&M is that they deliver what they promise, and often considerably more. Cherry brandy should grow just fine as an HHA and will likely be quite a bit hardier than that in a lot of zones - and people who expect that should be happy.

And I guess the people who buy Cherry Brandy bu the plant for $2.99 each and plant them in zone three will like them and if they aren't that hardy will take solace in the fact that their plant apparently "bloomed itself to death".

Lynda

Oh, you mean "Restaurant Row", that's what we call that strip of Milwaukee. Bob Chin's Crab House is fabulous! That's if ya have a few hours to wait. In the summer the line is a block long just to get into the bar area! lol You can smell the garlic blocks away!

Lynda, that is by far the absolute best explanation of how seed companies work. Thanks.

Cover all the bases, blame the plant or the gardener.

The Rudbeckia hirta cultivars that I've grown are at least a hardy annual, if not biennial or perennial. I would expect Cherry Brandy to be the same, but perhaps for some reason it is more tender.

Last year I wintersowed 5 cultivars of Rudbeckia hirta last February and March - 'Irish Eyes', 'Indian Summer', 'Gloriosa', 'Prairie Sun' and Cappucino (yes I love these). They all sprouted in April and didn't miss a beat when we got a freeze in early May. Most bloomed by mid-late July and kept going for the rest of the summer. I have had 'Indian Summer' overwinter before, so I expect some of them to return this Spring.

This picture was taken May 1st, and it was 27 degrees that morning (thanks Weather Underground!). These frosty little sprouts weren't bothered in the least.
{{gwi:346175}}

yeah THATS it Bob Chinns! We used to eat there before we had kids.

Boy, I used to have their mugs int he cabinet and always knew the name, i cant believe I forgot it. Its prolly been like 12 years since Ive been there. the garlic rolls....I remember those. YUMMY!

oh well, McD's makes a pretty good filet-o-fish ya know. hee!

:)
D

I would also think some misgiving info about new intro related to short trial periods and desire to bring new plants intro rather sooner than later. I am sure it is not easy to be in horticultural industry- once economics are down such industry suffer first and even when they good it is a touch and go- late freeze could destroy all your work in a day...
It seems like an excellent idea to look into plants origins and know that Rudbeckia hirta cultivars are not going to be perennials in zone 3...
so buy or grow new intro at your own risk and let us all know how it did for you...am sure there will be people who will pay $2.99 for new annual...