Michael,
Can you possibly interest someone at Rutgers to take the Blackberry plant and graft it onto a multiflora under isolation conditions?
I know that there are some blackberry diseases with similar symptoms (and one that has the symptoms as well as an orange rust like fungus.)
I had a similar problem with some blackberry and rogued it out because I couldn't find anyone to work with it.

With Conard Pyle as a rose producer headquartered in NJ, you may be able to get through to the ag people to take that and work with it. I'll be happy to give you offline names of academics to fill in with the NJ ag people.
How can I help?

(I'm not convinced, because until the cross grafting is done under replicable conditions, it doesn't pass the test to be publishable. But I really hope you can get the right people to do the sort of tests by graft innoculation that are needed.)
And remembering that blackberries and roses are in the Rosaceae...

And I just came down to unplug the computer because of a lightening storm.

I live in an area that is under heavy RRD pressure. I've seen RRD like symptoms on other shrubs. I had an azalea with lots of RRD like witches brooms on one stem and have had a forsythia with a RRD like canes like the Blackberry cane. It might have been caused by roundup drift, but in both cases it was just one cane or branch in the middle of a bunch of healthy growth.

I don't know if the shrubs had RRD or something that causes similar syptoms. Maybe sometimes the mites think they're on a rose bush and bite into it and transmit RRD.

I find this a intresting twist to the RRD problem we all all facing. It will be intresting to see what happens if it is found that RRD is also killing a cash crop.

Bingo! rosesnpots.
Cash crops get attention.
And the plants in Rosaceae that are so important to our nation's fruitbasket ....get attention.

What was not considered when some of the initial testing was done was that they tested a single attempt to exarch/endarch transmit RRD into fruit trees. And it didn't take.
What about higher disease pressure?

There are also some similar problems. There's a different mite vector for a similar disease of peach trees in Mexico and California.
Europe has been dealing with Blackcurrent Reversion Associated disease (which apparently is a complex of diseases, at least one of which is spread by still another mite). It took Europe about a century to get some answers.

Wheat and corn have some similar mite transmitted problems.
Take a look at the references in my e-book, you'll see it's not just roses studied by these scientists.

The fact that they are in the same family is what made me do the double take. Ann, since you seem to know what should be done next, and who should be contacted send me an email and let me know so we can pursue this further.
Michael

Ann

I have read your e-book on RRD from cover to cover and what an eye opener. What really shook me was on another thread someone posted that they spotted RRD at the rose garden at Norfolk Botanical Gardens and I am about 10 miles south as the crow flies! And the local rose society meets there each month. Is via the wind the only way for the mite to get from one place to another? And how far have you heard the mites can travel?

Thanks
Liz

And, of course, Fuchsia Gall Mite has almost erased fuchsias from the average home garden. :-(

Jeri

Liz,
We on GW shared a story about RRD on roses in Chesapeake several years ago. So the potential has been in your area at least that long.
Wind can carry them. Jim Amrine has told me he wonders if the mites can ride in the space between big tractor trailers. I know in my county the first places I saw RRD were along a major railroad line that comes down from KY and points north...where RRD was before it was here. And it was where the railroad trains slow down to take fairly sharp curves (by railroad standards).
When RRD was just getting into north Georgia, somehow it got onto two HMusks in Bainbridge Georgia (way far south).
All it takes is one female mite who has lived on an RRD rose to land on another rose. And the storms that move at 50mph have the potential to move mites within their turbulence for hundreds of miles in just a part of a day.

The wheat disease that I mentioned elsewhere has vector mites and those mites now are on many continents.

Jeri,
I looked at a fuchsia today and may go back and get it and enjoy it while I can. (And save a fine old Port to toast its demise when it comes.)
There's some advantage to living in a part of the country which isn't gardening enthusiastic....lots of space between infections and the next plants. Isn't that sad, though?

Ann

Thank you for answering my questions. Enjoy your Port and relax a little. I am fairly new to the form but I can already see you are really helping everyone with the much needed education about RRD and how to fight it.

Liz

I am starting to feel like we did when the AIDS epidemic first surfaced- scary & hopeless.

I am following this because we have a lot of blackberry. Mind you there is no loose or wild multiflora around here and the only multiflora I know of is that I had some roses with roostock but I think they died and the rose has gone ownroot, so none of that but we are loaded up here with blackberries. This area was nothing much but blackberries and kudzu when I moved here. We killed the kudzu (don't ask and I won't tell how) but the blackberries are even impervious to that.

Patricia,
I will be pursuing this with the local ag agencies and try to alarm them enough to start some testing. If I can convince them that cash crops may be in danger they will act...... and we'll see if this is what it looks like.....the mite is moving onto plants in the rosaceae family, not just the rose. As this progresses I will keep you posted.
Michael

Michael, thank you very much for this and for pursuing this to some kind of information that may be helpful toward (if not eradicating) calling attention to it so that efforts are made to rid us of it. Hopefully, someone will pay attention.

JBCarr wrote: "I am starting to feel like we did when the AIDS epidemic first surfaced- scary & hopeless."

I am trying to keep in mind that you probably don't know anyone personally who has died of AIDS. I hate that the mites are causing such destruction, but I would rather dig out and burn a thousand flower gardens than to have buried my friend who died of AIDS (RIP Red Connor).

- Michelle

From what I can tell the scientists do not yet know whether the symptoms are caused by a virus from the mite or if the symptoms are simply caused by the mites feeding. I can't seem to find verification either way. Again, maybe Ann knows more on this. If simply the mites feeding then, in my simple mind, we can control the mites once we learn more about their habits. I've always been an optimist......drives my wife nuts at times.
Michael

Michael, just to ask the obvious, dumb question, since your garden is so remarkably and admirably weed-free...that damage could not possibly have been caused by herbicide?

And, of course, Fuchsia Gall Mite has almost erased fuchsias from the average home garden. :-(
Jeri

Does that explain my inability to grow the hardy fushsia??? I've tried three times, trying to do something nice for the humminbirds. So frustrating!

Comparing RRD to AIDS is extremely tasteless in my opinion. Seriously.

Elaine

I often have vague symptoms that go away. It is usually associated with the weather, but it bothers me when it happens. Dublin is one of the red roses that seems to start out in a scarey fashion, then straighten itself out. It is so good to be watching, but is everyone -- Ann? --certain that this is RRD?

Berndoodle has a point. Also at just the right time, cold, hot, rain can make them look funny.

Sammy

While the two are certainly not in the same league, I can't imagine any harm was meant and certainly scolding has no place here. Scolding is appropriate when harm was meant. Too bad the politically correct police are all over now. They spread like RRD.
Kathy

Michael, I am sorry that this side discussion ever got started on your topic. I really should have left it alone and not let the original comment get to me. I am following the topic because I am interested in RRD. It will be nice if people can stick to the RRD topic and try to keep it civil.

Back on topic, I wonder about the possibility of mites that prey on rosacea species hybridizing. It's a worrisome thought.

Cheers,
Michelle

I apologize about my post, and to those it offended.

I am just learning about this disease...I was looking at roses at a nursery yesterday..I was wandering around and saw two roses side by side who had this disease. I decided not to buy a thing there. It's contagious right?

JBCarr, I was not offended and a brother and nephew and very close friend succumbed to AIDS. I have had many roses that succumbed to RRD and as one with a medical background and a gardener who seems to be losing in this RRD fight, I have seen both up close and I was not offended nor should anyone be.

Without the ability to mention HIV/AIDS, research would have never progressed to where it is now, and we have made great strides through HIV research in the treatment of AIDS and many other illnesses are now benefactors of HIV research, some illness that were heretofore considered a "death warrant," can now be treated through that same research.

If we are going to feign offense by mention of every group, every issue and illness, we might as well all return to the 14th century when the very mention of anything related to sex was only mentioned in the most esoteric and scornful ways.

This poster has a right to express the hopelessness and helplessness we feel when confronted by illness of family, friends, animals, plants, etc.

My own autoimmune disease could have ended (and very nearly did) my life but through HIV research a treatment was found for me. This is just political correctness run amok.

zyperiris

As Ann explains it very well in her online RRD fact book. RRD is caused by a mite and it is contagous not in the traditional sense of the word but travels from one rose to another via the mites. So yes, I think you were very right not to buy anything from there (I would not have). Did you let the managment know what you found?

jbcarr has been a long time poster on here and has always been level headed and evenhanded in his posts. Actually, my initial reaction to finding RR infected roses in my garden reminded me of the early days of AIDS and I was working in a hospital at that time. When I read his post, I thought that is exactly how I FELT when I first spotted infected roses in my garden, scary and hopeless. In NO WAY did he imply they were of equal seriousness. I think the 2 people who were offended were out of line and mistakenly read more into it than he said or implied.
Sorry but it is a sore point for me on this forum. I have seen too many good people driven off these rose forums by posters who took offense when none was meant or given.

This is not my garden but one of my customers and there has been no herbicide sprayed. I wish it was simply herbicide. I've never seen this in my 15 years in the business so something is going on here. I care for nearly 3000 rose bushes and this is a very small percentage of the plants at this time but I want to make a strong effort to curb this now before it becomes a real problem. The appearance of these symptoms on plants in the Rose family, that are not roses, is alarming and needs to be addressed......hopefully it's nothing but I've got to find out.
For what its worth I thought the AIDS comment was just a poor choice of words and nothing more......from someone who regularly sticks his foot in his mouth I'm sure there was no malice intended.
Michael

Ann, Michael, anyone who has more scientific background than I, I am concerned about Michael's finding so much; however, is it possible this is RRD but it has mutated. Is that possible?

I know that so many viruses and infections can and will do that. However, I am just grasping here and hopefully we will have more definitive information.

What concerns me more, I suppose, than my own loss of roses to RRD, which was significant, are the thousands of other people out there who will lose them and if they get into the nurseries and fields where they are grown, this will be a bigger disaster than it is now. Then on mutating, is it possible it could come to adversely affect food crops and if so, we are all in trouble. Nothing to be taken lightly.

Again, I'm sure this will be figured out eventually. With people like Ann taking such an interest progress will happen. I'll reiterate that I'm not convinced this is viral.....it may simply be the result of the mite feeding that causes the growth abnormalities......unless Ann has some information I'm not aware of (which she may have). I'm working on controlling the mite at this point. If the only way this can be transmitted is via a mite, then the mite gets all my attention.

Michael

Hi Michael, I drove from Cape May to Atlantic City this weekend and all along the parkway there is an abundance of Multiflora blooming. I mean lots and lots on each side. Now this multiflora has been around for years and years, when do the mites step in and start infecting the multiflora and where do the mites come from?

The mites move on the wind so depending on which way the wind is blowing determines where they land. Just drove up from Egg Harbor on the parkway on Saturday and noticed the same multiflora.....lots of it and some growing 15-20feet up into trees. I don't know if cases have been spotted along the coast or not....maybe someone on the forum has some info on that one.
Michael

Any updates on this situation?

Something that has bothered me for some time now...what is to prevent grafted roses in the fields from being infected with RRD as well, and how long before we are buying bareroots that may be already infected? Any thoughts on this?

I've bought one single bareroot this year, budeyes had already popped when it arrived because it was so late in the season when I purchased it. Yesterday I noticed that a few of the budeyes are sending out triple shoots and that threw up a red flag. The rose is in a pot and I'm going to keep it isolated as much as possible until I can determine whether the growth is normal or not. So far the color seems ok, starting out pale due to being in cold storage and shipping but greening up now. I know it's probably fine but still...better to not take chances with the few roses I have now.

(And for those who may remember me, I didn't drop off the face of the planet...quite. Just a lot of personal upheavel resulting in a move, poorer materially but spades richer in peace and contentment. And I get to build a new garden now, albeit plant by plant).

It's so good to 'see' familiar faces...hi Ms Pat and Ann :)

Diana

Very weird on blackberry bush. I am sorry about your roses, been there done that.

Carla

.what is to prevent grafted roses in the fields from being infected with RRD as well, and how long before we are buying bareroots that may be already infected? Any thoughts on this?

*** RRD is still fairly un-common in CA. At least, in Southern CA.
So roses grown in the old Wasco rose fields, in CA's Central Valley, have little exposure to it.
(If any.)
As rose production moves elsewhere, I'd guess that exposure might increase?
Which makes Wasco-grown roses sound like nirvana -- but one must in that case consider downy mildew.

Jeri

I only hope the powers that be recognise it as a problem before it gets that far. I haven't had it in my own garden (knock on wood) but it's likely just a matter of time.
I'm almost certain I've seen wild blackberry canes with witches's brooms, but can't remember when or where. At the time I knew nothing about the disease, just recognised that something was really wrong with them.

Hi Carla, great to see you. I miss the roses something terrible...but I have to say it was worth it. As someone with a whole lot of sense used to say, "Life's too short to be driven crazy by crazy people."

I can rebuild my garden :)

I am just reading this with interest. I have had a case of RRD this summer, and posted on the Antiques forum. I have a huge field behind my house with no multiflora but lots of wild blackberries. I'll check for RRD symptoms on them. Clemson, BTW, told me they lost their rose expert and haven't hired another. Peach problems? They've got that more than covered!

I'm at the library and finally able to open this thread again. My home computer is slow.

There's a really strange thing about the virus that's assumed to be the cause of this. A student at George Washinton U did his Senior thesis on RRD in a leaf of New Dawn that was just coming down with RRD. (The paper's in my bibliography.) His advisor is a master of Transmission Electron microscope work and has published on other plant diseases.
After Graduation, the student began Med School and early on all the students had to present poster session of their Senior Theses to the other students and faculty. He was the only one who had done a plant. He had a huge crowd of Medical School Doctors who couldn't get over the similarity between the virus particles he showed and the pictures they had seen of the virus particles believed to be AIDS.

NO relationship, but it left him and his audience wondering.

These plant particles aren't exclusive to roses. A paper from Arkansas proposes a new class of viruses that encompases these and other eriophyid mite transmitted plant diseases (Plums, pigeon pea, peach, wheat, corn, black currents, and dates are just some of the really barely related plants to have somewhat similar diseases.) (The viruses are different sizes, for starters.)

CLEMSON: they may have lost their rose expert, do they still have someone who was working with plant crop diseases (like Peaches)?

I won't be able to reply here on this thread. Feel free to email me at home.

I am in Pendleton, SC (right next to Clemson). I found my first instance of RRD today on Altissimo. Sad because it was my first rose, and worried about the others now. I also have tons of wild blackberry that I am trying to eradicate and this post has me wondering if that's how RRD entered my garden.

Gnomey--I am in Anderson and work in Clemson!!! I finally got a plant pathologist out from Clemson to look at my RRD Belinda's Dream and he remained fairly skeptical despite obvious symptoms confirmed by Ann. He took some samples and reported finding no mites and that was the end of it. Oh and he also said there were no confirmed cases of RRD in the southeast. (WHAT??!!) The extension office agent said he's never seen RRD in the 30 years he'd been in Anderson. Like that is a reason we couldn't possibly have it! Let me know if you are available sometime for lunch. I have no local rose friends really and certainly don't know anyone locally who knows what RRD is!

personally I"m very thankfull for the RRD discussions on here. Earlier this year I spotted two RRD infected plants (which I'd never seen RRD up close and personal before) at a local nursery. I tried telling the individual in charge of the roses, she didn't think it was a problem so she took me back to the diagnostic area, again they didn't think there was anything wrong with the plants, but called the nursery expert over who told them they needed to be quarantinee and destroyed right away. The individual taking care of the roses, said she had numerous ones like that in her garden and the nursery expert promptly informed her they needed to be taken out and destroyed. I did despite my better judgement buy 3 other roses from that same nursery that day after I thoroughly inspected them for any sign of RRD. They still appear to be fine, but I never would have recognized them without our discussions here.

I also have blueberries and raspberries in the yard. I'm going to look those over tonight, just to make sure.

I know it's scary. But it just shows us that Mother Nature will have her way, in spite of man's feeble attempts to alter the course of events she has set in place. I.e., we may will have to live with it - RRD. Not that it should stop anybody from doing more research work on it.

Being in the medical field, one looks at these "particles" with awe, and realise how smart those little packages of DNA are. Simple, but extremely smart. Smart enough to outwit human beings. How could such a small particle of matter enter a cell, hijack the cell's DNA and have it function the way it wants it to? With such devastating effects.

Smart? Yes. Have you noticed how quickly the Hepatitis B virus develops resistant strains to the specific antiviral agents designed for it, and it alone? Have you noticed how the influenza viruses change their antigenic "appearance", so that the flu vaccine you received last year may no longer be effective this year? Have you noticed how their exacting choice of vector hosts allows them to cover large distances? Think West Nile virus. Think Avian flu.

This, of course, isn't anything new. The competition for survivor, propagation and dominance between different life forms on earth has been going on ever since life forms came into existence. What's different now is that human beings, as one of those life forms, decided, unilaterally, to change the rules. They set out to conquer the rest of the world by sheer brute force, rather than await the gentle, forbiddingly long, tide of naturally evolution to give us the advantages. Along with this single minded quest to conquer nature, comes an expectation that we shall be protected from Nature's harm at all times. Which, of course is unrealistic.

So, my approach to this is in the words of Meher Baba and Bobby McFerrin - "Don't worry, be happy". Of course, for any one who has lost a whole garden of roses to RRD, who lost someone he/she knows to HIV, this is the hardest part. But eventually, many of us come to accept that philosphy. As I am starting to, having lost a treasured colleague to CMV infection.

But we are inundated with black berries. We are under seize, they have surrounded us. Prickly canes poke through holes in our perimeter fence every day, mocking at my futile efforts to control them. So, the plague of RRD, although a major disaster for our garden, may rid us of the blackberries (if it's true that they get RRD, of course).

However, I won't discount the blackberries' ability to generate a clone that is immune to RRD. And, hey, presto! And "we" have found a solution to the problem - RRD resistance!

And the cycle will begin again.

(Yes, we are really scared of RRD. But you will be shaking in your boots if you are a banana farmer and someone mentions the Banana Bunchy Top Virus.)