Plan to grow oaks from seedling and acorns.

12 years ago

I would like to plant a few oak trees. I want at least one Bur Oak and perhaps a Northern Red Oak. I bought 10 Bur Oak seedlings from the U. of Idaho forest nursery and they are supposed to come tomorrow. I also bought 25 red oak acorns, 25 bur oak acorns, and 25 pin oak acorns from Acorno that should be here next week.

I have 1/3 an acre but live across the from a pretty new neighborhood park with poor looking trees. They look like they were ran over before they were planted. I also have two great danes that are good at chewing on anything that they can find.

I anticipate that the seedlings that are on their way are between 12"-18". I feel like I ought to grow them a bit more before planting them so that they might be stronger for when they get attacked by my dogs. I have done a bunch of reading about air rooting and think I may buy some of the small rootmaker pots for the acorns that are coming and some of the roottrapper 5 gallon bags for the seedlings. I had thought about planting them in a protected gardening area till the trees grow a bit larger than moving them to the final location but figured that with the root maker bags it would help to develop good lateral roots that could help in the long run.

I am interested in playing with these trees for a few reasons. I am interested in Bonsai and would like to do that with a few of these trees and would also like to donate a few trees to the city park across the street. I don't imagine the city would be opposed to that. In that scenario the bigger and stronger the trees before planting at the park would be the best due to careless kids and what not.

I am thinking that these trees would be in the 5 gallon cloth bags for at least a year if not longer. From what I have read that would not be an issue for the roots but wonder about over wintering them. Will having the bags above ground in the winter damage the roots or are they hardy enough for our generally mild winters?

Tell me if my hopes are unreasonable or rational. Thanks for reading.

(couldn't figure how to add two links. Here is the address for the UofI Forest Seedlings site: http://seedlings.uidaho.com/Store/DrawProducts.aspx?Action=GetDetails&ProductID=57&ParentID=&PageID=46&CategoryID=1

Here is a link that might be useful: Root Maker Potting Supplies,

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sanctified
Original Author

12 years ago

I'm 28 and have quite a few more years of life yet. I am working around a few other plantings though so I don't want to impede on them either.

I was a little worried about what my neighbors would think about my big tree plans but they all seem to be very happy about them. Its a pretty new development and most of them don't have much in the way or trees.

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Comments (37)

gardenall
12 years ago
The seedlings that will be planted on your place could be planted now if you would put a protective ring of wire or something if your thinking about the dogs geting to them!
I have some trees I planted from acorns in 3gal pots in my
back yard. Just keep them watered and they do good. Sounds like you have a good plan!
Good luck!
sanctified
Original Author
12 years ago
Thanks. I was thinking that I could let all of the grow for a bit and then plant the best ones in my yard. I do have a row of flowering pears that I planted last fall that I have caged with chicken wire so my naughty dog doesn't get to them. I'm sure that I will cage anything else that I plant as well when I do it.
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This Fall, harvest all the ripe acorns you find. Do not limit yourself to only the oaks growing on your lot. Pay attention to mature oaks around town, which are only about 20 to 30 years old. If you find any of these oaks, which you especially like, then offer the property owner where the tree is growing your service to do a one time sweep over the area where the acorns have dropped, and collect all you can find. Do this for as many locations as you have the energy and time to collect. Each time you bring a bunch home, immediately dump them into a bucket of water. Skim off all that float and throw them away, or grind them up and throw the ground acorns anywere you want to help enrich the soil. Drain the water off all the acorns which sank to the bottom of the pale. Gently shake them dry, and spread them outside for the sun to finish drying. If you do this where there are animals, which feed on acorns, you may need to cover them with a mesh that is made and then installed in a manner which keeps the animals from taking them for food. While the acorns are drying, line up a number of one gallon sized black nursery pots, which you have filled with a woody and high humus type, well draining potting soil. Place all the pots under the shade of your mature oak trees. Then poke the acorns into the pots of soil. Space the acorns about 4 inches apart. and repeat until you have filled each pot. After doing this you will need to secure the type of wire mesh over the pots, which will keep the squirrels and other acorn loving animals from digging up the acorns. Then leave the pots alone. Some of these acorns you have collected will sprout next spring when the new rains arrive for that year, Others will take 2 or even 3 more years before they sprout. And others will simply end up rotting and creating food for the ones which have sprouted. Each Spring, whenever you see any that have sprouted, begin to watched them closely and transplanted the ones into individual one gallon pots, which end up growing tall enough for their tops to touch the mesh you installed over the pots to keep the squirrels out. Make certain that once some of the acorns have sprouted, and if the spring rains are not frequent enough, you have kept the pots watered only enough to keep the potting soil just moist but never soggy. For the ones which will need to be transplanted into their own one gallon sized pots, When transplanting, Make sure to keep quite a bit of potting soil around the roots and try to not disturb the roots much when transplanting. After planting any of the sprouted ones into their own one gallon pots, inspect them each day, and keep them watered just enough to keep the soil in the pots evenly moist, but not soggy. These individually potted sprouts do not need to be covered with mesh, because the acorn eating animals will prefer acorns which have not been so transformed as these young water sprouts will have cause them to be. Keep these one gallon sized sprouted trees watered and under the mature oaks shade until late winter, or early spring, just prior to them breaking dormancy. At that time you can cut the bottoms out of the pots and plant these trees pot and all in a well draining and humus rich virgin soil nursery bed, which you have pre-installed in an area, which receives full morning and noonday sun and hottest part of the afternoon shade. Keep these beds watered enough for the soil to remain evenly moist, but not soggy. Also they will do better if the ground in the nursery bed is mulched with lightly shredded oak leaves which you collected from your mature oak trees earlier that winter. After these trees you plant in the nursery bed have grown well during the following Spring, Summer, Fall, and most of the winter of that year, then in late winter just prior to them breaking dormancy, dig out enough soil to expose the remaining sides of the one gallon pots around the tree's rootball, and cut the sides of those pots in a manner which will allow you to completely remove the pot without disturbing much the young tree's root ball and tap root. This step should not be too hard to accomplish since earlier you had already removed the bottoms of the pots. Fill the nursery bed soil back around the tree's root ball, and continue caring for the trees until they are the size you want them to be before you are willing to transplant them to their place where you want them to grow on your property. Just make certain that once they reach that size, you do not try to transplant them until they have gone dormant. With oaks, since so many of them do not drop their leaves in the fall, they usually transplant better in the late winter or early spring, just prior to them breaking leaf bud. I like to bare root transplant my young oaks that are grown in a nursery bed by the time their their trunks are no larger than 1/4th inch in diameter. Even then be sure to dig them deeply to keep as much of the tap root as possible. Any larger of a trunk will do better if they are dug with much of the soil around the rootball still around the roots, and secured together with burlap and string. Usually the ball and burlaped ones end up with their tap roots cut shorter than I like to see done with Oak trees. Of course most tree farms commonly cut that size and even thicker trunked oaks tap roots much shorter than I prefer, and if planted properly those trees usually seem to have adjusted well enough, even inspite of that practice. ************** If the Mature oak trees on your lot produce lots of young water sprouts from acorns they have dropped under their canopies, simply dig them up when they are about 6 inches tall. take lots of dirt with them, dig down deep enough to get all of the young tap root, and disturb the roots as little as possible. Then transplant them in your field wherever you want them to grow. The best ones of these little sprouts to dig and transplant are the ones which still are connected to the spit open acorn from which they grew. When transplanting dig and handle, throughout the transplant process, the sprout in a manner, which will not dislodge the acorn that the sprout still needs to feed on once it is first transplanted.
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gardener365
12 years ago
Allow me to clue you in on rootmaker products and oak growing. What you will need are the (18) per flat size. The 60's and 30's are both too small. A professional oak-grower a friend of mine met at a convention has confirmed this. Furthermore, I'll lend you some more information about what to do next with both your arriving seedlings and those you grow in the rootmaker cells that will save you a lot of money.
First, I want to address your question about whether or not you may keep your pots above ground in zone 5 for the winter - the answer is definitely not. You'll need to bury the pots in the ground and it would be wise for you to put mulch over them, as-well.

You'll need one gallon pots and "Aquashield paint" from Sears in a color other than black & you'll paint the inside of the pots. Aquashield paint completely-stops roots from circling. So instead of buying larger bags or pots from rootmaker, you can simply go this route as a friend of mine in the business already does. #8482 Aquashield paint is what I have bookmarked for Sears.com but the link no-longer works. It's marine paint for boats, that's what the stuff is.

Good luck in your adventure.

Dax
cearbhaill (zone 6b Eastern Kentucky)
12 years ago
I have Irish Wolfhounds and a newish property so fully understand the challenges you face.
I do think these trees would fare far better if planted in their permanent spot as soon as possible- just protect them.

I use short wire border fencing that I buy by the roll and cut to fit newly planted things. At one point I had 200+ plants with these little cages around them as you can see in the background of these two pics.

{{gwi:348972}}

{{gwi:348973}}

All you need is a visual deterrent that triggers the dogs to go around rather than over and these have worked extremely well for me. Over the years I have tried every method there is with puppies, adults, and fosters.

It is wise to observe the dogs and see where their natural paths are- it's best to avoid trying to change their patterns if you can help it. I keep the entire perimeter along the fence clear as well- all ornamentals are planted at least two feet away. The dogs will run the perimeter whether you plan for it or not, so you may as well work with them on that.

If your dogs are unattended for long periods of time out there, easily bored, and prone to digging or eating plants I would use the short metal fence stakes and chicken wire- I have done that on a few choice plants and it takes maybe ten minutes to set up and protects even the most delicate plant from our big-footed friends.

You can do it- you can have a nice garden with dogs but you have to anticipate what your problems are going to be and figure a work-a-round before the dogs find a way to thwart you. If they get there first and establish bad habits it is a hundred times more difficult.
scotjute Z8
12 years ago
I have started several Bur Oaks from seed in 5 gal. pots. By the end of the first summer they are typically about 12" or so high, but the roots have already started curling up around the pots and I always transplanted them out in fall/winter down here. Would not recommend keeping those trees in pots past the summer.
sanctified
Original Author
12 years ago
cear
Great looking dogs. I have always loved big dogs and looked at wolfhounds when we got our danes. My naughty dane has chewed on branches of some of our other trees. We have learned though and have protected them with chicken wire.

gardener
Any idea why I would need to paint the inside of the pots? Everything I have read says that its the design of the pot that will encourage the roots to not circle but rather branch out.

I am interested in the ability to grow more and finer roots with the rootmaker pots/bags.
ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
12 years ago
how to go about it

1 == make pot determination

2 == determine what potting MEDIA goes in the pots .. its very important

3 == where to put the pots.. because trees dont appreciate black pots in direct sun

4 == how to water them ... trees do not like soggy roots .. and this is tied in with the media .. the pots are kept very dry.. compared to other plants ...

5 == what to do with them in late fall.. for winter storage ..

master those variables.. and you are all set ...

the dogs are the least of your problems..

ken
sanctified
Original Author
12 years ago
Ken,
You seem to be the expert on Oaks. How close can I plant Bur Oaks and Northern Red Oaks together? I had thought maybe two planted 20-25 feet apart. My yard is 85 ft wide and this would still give me plenty of room from the fences.
ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
12 years ago
i have oaks.. i have oak experience..

i do NOT claim to be an expert ...

25 feet sounds good.. for the next 15 years ... lol ... but not enough for the next century of potential life ...

how old are you .. and will you care about it all in say .. 25 to 50 years????

with 85 feet.. more space the better.. if you want independent free standing specimens ...

ken
gardener365
12 years ago
sact- I substituted inexpensive pots (could be 1-gallon-2-gallon-3-gallon) to pot your seedlings in. If you purchase rootmaker-larger-pots, you'll spend a big buck. The paint I'm talking about stops 100% of root-circling thus allowing you to keep things inexpensive and still gain the same quality of roots from plants started in rootmaker (18) cells.
I apologize for not explaining this more-specific.

Dax
sanctified
Original Author
12 years ago
Dax-
That, makes sense I guess. I was wondering why you would plant in the rootmaker pots AND add the paint. I will look into it as an alternative. Have you tried this yourself or is it something that your friend has just told you about. Hell, I may just try out both methods to see how it works. I'm not trying this for any super world application. Mostly because I have nothing better to do and am curious about it.
ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
12 years ago
and another method.. is to simply plant some WHERE YOU WANT THEM ... in mother earth.. who will take care of them for you..

avoiding the cost of pots.. media.. water.. and winter worries ...

EXPERIMENT MAN ...

ken
lucky_p
12 years ago
Good info here:

Here is a link that might be useful: Containerized growing of oak/nut trees for outplanting
sanctified
Original Author
12 years ago
Lucky-
Thanks for posting that link. I had actually found it earlier in the week while scouring the internets but forgot to save it. I was looking for it again last night.
famartin
12 years ago
Pin Oak probably won't like your alkaline soil.
j0nd03
12 years ago
Try some of these ;) They will keep the roots inside the container and make a very dense root system with no taproot. Perfect container to grow them in and get em ready for fall planting.

Here is a link that might be useful: Farmtek 6
sanctified
Original Author
12 years ago
My Bur Oak Saplings came yesterday. They were $2.25 a piece and I got 10. We have a storm rolling through for the next few days so I unboxed them and put them in the refridgerator until I can get them in pots or the ground. It looks like they are in pantyhose.

Here is a link that might be useful: Pics of the seedlings.
drrich2
12 years ago
Dax:

"You'll need one gallon pots and "Aquashield paint" from Sears in a color other than black & you'll paint the inside of the pots. Aquashield paint completely-stops roots from circling. So instead of buying larger bags or pots from rootmaker, you can simply go this route as a friend of mine in the business already does. #8482 Aquashield paint is what I have bookmarked for Sears.com but the link no-longer works. It's marine paint for boats, that's what the stuff is."

Okay, this has been bugging me since I read your post. Why other than black? Does the black not work?

Just curious.

Richard.
jqpublic
12 years ago
If you grow your oaks in pots. What would you fertilize them w/?
sanctified
Original Author
12 years ago
I haven't gotten that far yet. I'm still trying to figure out whether to do pots or just throw them in the raised beds. I imagine I would want to fertilize them regardless of where they were planted though.Maybe just a general purpose nitrogen fertilizer like milorganite.

It is still raining today and will continue into Saturday. I want to have something figured out by Sunday or Monday though. I did go to a few nurserys today though looking for net baskets without any luck. I may have to check out a grow shop to find them locally. It would be fun if I still drove a marked cruiser.
ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
12 years ago
so picture in your mind.. this 200 year old oak ... and ask yourself..

WHO HAS BEEN FEEDING IT???

crimminey ... in mother earth.. in any decent soil ... trees do NOT need anything.. NOTHING ...

that said.. a LITTLE OF This or that should not hurt ... but do keep in mind.. they are not children.. who need to be fed.. bathed.. clothed.. educated ...

now.. pots .. with media.. designed for heavy drainage.. which trees prefer ... MIGHT need some water sol fert ... depending on how long they will be potted ...

but since trees prefer to be on the dry side ... you really should not need to water so often that you run all the nutrients out the bottom .. especially young small trees ..

and if you dont run the water out the bottom.. like you might water a perennial or annual ... then the pot should NOT need.. all that much ...

again.. a little of this or that is OK .. but dont start think along the kid line.. and think you need to hyper-fertilize a tree ...

and i would NOT use a potting media .. that already has fert contained in the bag ... its just another thing you need to MANAGE .... and part of managing it all.. means NOT to go into it with some preconceived notion that they are children ...

good luck

ken
gardener365
12 years ago
Richard,

Black paint can't been seen when painted inside of a black pot so pick another color. And when it's time to re-paint (I think the paint lasts 5+ years before the pots need re-painting)

Sanc,

My friend is an expert propagator who's used this method of going from Rootmaker cells to ordinary pots for years, beyond-years. The roots produced are simply astounding.
From a seed (Pinus densiflora he likes to mess around with) started right now this time of the year and finishing up at Fall of this year, he has a full-one-gallon plant and a 12-18" seedling with a 1/4"-1/2" caliper. It's simply astounding.

I'll try to find some pics.

Dax
sanctified
Original Author
12 years ago
Dax-
Pics would be great thanks. I'll check out sears this afternoon. I have decided to try a few different things. I am going to plant some in a raised bed, some in net pots above ground, and now some with this paint if I can find it in black pots.

I'm having a little trouble finding pots though. With the warm weather we are getting antsy to work outside but a lot of the nursery around here haven't gotten in a lot of their stock.
gardener365
12 years ago
Read the "Ingredients For Success" at the bottom of the page. Container production calls for fertilizer among micronutrients.

Ken, Frank uses their ingredients to the exact proportions, listed. And Frank is the guy I'm talking about folks aka starterdude.

Dax

Here is a link that might be useful: Rootmaker: Ingredients For Success
gardener365
12 years ago
Here's a photo of Frank's Pinus densiflora seedlings. Started from seed and about 6-7 months old.

Dax

Here is a link that might be useful:
gardener365
12 years ago
Here's a root system of Thuja plicata x standishii 'Green Giant' either from a 1 or 2 gallon pot after Rootmaker cells (started) the cutting.

{{gwi:348974}}
sjuguy
11 years ago
I am interested in doing something similar to what the OP plans to do with some white oak acorns. My plan is to propagate before winter, transplant the good samples into 1 or 2 gallon "air-pruning" pots. The question I have is how and where to winter the seedlings? I live near Minneapolis, so I am assuming that without some kind of protection our potentially harsh winters will take a toll on anything not in the ground. Any thoughts would be helpful!
famartin
11 years ago
An unheated garage would probably be good.
sanctified
Original Author
11 years ago
I'll update later tonight with pictures of how my oak seedlings are doing. If you didn't realize it this is a post from April and I planted a bunch of acorns already. All I will say now is that the heat has taken a toll on my seedlings.
wisconsitom
11 years ago
Dax, should you still pop into this one.thanks for that excellent information! Really cool idea.

Sanct, Ken's spacing comments are correct...if you must have each individual tree able to form a fully expanded crown. Around here, there's these things called forests, and in these forests you will find trees at just about every spacing interval there is. Just saying....trees of same or similar species and ages, when started together, generally accomodate each other. It all just depends on what effect you're after.

+oM
gardener365
11 years ago
Will look forward to the pics.

I have some oaks really coming along. 1 meter of growth on (3) of my Bur oaks this year. They'll have to be dug however, because they're between my sidewalk and garage. I'll do that next-spring.

Dax
sanctified
Original Author
11 years ago
OP has delivered!!!!!

Here are the pics I promised. I didn't read through all the comments again to see if I ever explained what I had done so I'll just do a quick shake down. I bought seedlings from the Idaho extension acorns from a website called acorno.com. I planted the seedlings in 1 gallon rootmaker pots, 3 gallon rootmaker bags, and some in my garden boxes. I planted the acorns in the little 2.5"x 2.5" rootmaker pots and a few in my raised beds. I planted bur, n. red oak, and a couple pin oak acorns. The seedlings were all bur oak.

I build a little potting bench from scrap wood I had lying around and put all of my pots on top of that on the east side of my house. They get good sun until about 1300 hours then shade. The ones I planted in the garden boxes get full sun and there isn't great drainage so the box soil is basically always wet. (Its my first year with those so I have some work to do this fall/spring getting the drainage issues figured out.)

We have had the hottest summer on record and have been in the mid 90's basically since the beginning of June. I have tried to water the potted plants every afternoon when I get home from work and have only missed a few days. As you can see, the small potted acorns have all died. I think that the pots were just too small to store moisture during the day heat and dried out before I could get to watering them after work. The 1 and 3 gallon potted oaks look great other than a bit of leaf scorch.

The oaks planted in the raised beds seem to be doing just as well. They have some scorch but the little guys are green and have good leaves. I haven't gotten any real growth out of any of them. I'm not sure if its the heat, lack of water/ too much water, or anything else.

I am not sure where to go from here. This was totally just an experiment but I need to decide what to do with them before winter. I have a spot in the back south west corner of my yard that is just dirt. I haven't gotten around to doing flowers there yet and have considered planting my oaks in tidy rows there to have them mature a bit and bare root them when they get 4-5 feet tall. I still haven't decided on that though.

Here is a link that might be useful: Oak Seedling Album
gardener365
11 years ago
Hi OP!

Leave anything you have in the ground where they are and transplant them to their permanent location, next (early) spring while they are dormant. When the ground is workable, plant em.

The ones in the pots/bags/ you should sink in the ground, leaving them in the pots, and next spring, plant em.

Good job. I know if you could have kept the media moist on the 18 cell rootmaker flats, you'd of had excellent starter plants that could have been moved up to larger pots/bags. They are actually 3.25 x 3.25 x 4" not 2.5. Those are the correct size to work with oaks.

Looks like you had fun and had success.

Dax
mpieprzica Texas Z8
7 years ago
If anyone is still following, do you have a brand for the aquashield paint? Can't seem to find it...
gardener365
7 years ago
Any marine paint will suffice.

Dax
mpieprzica Texas Z8
7 years ago
Thanks, Dax!

Plan to grow oaks from seedling and acorns.

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