Thanks Seil :-) I wonder though if Julia Child has a more consistent size across climates, it's small to medium down here. Whereas Buck roses change--according to the Buck rose website Carefree Beauty is a small shrub and ARE in TX says medium to large?? I should post to the general forum I think.

Wow, there may be no one simple answer, but let me throw this into the mix to completely confound things. Here is what I have gleaned from some lengthy research on fall color. Folks  I am willing to be corrected! The colors in the leaves are always there except for the anthocyanins. The xanthophylls (yellows and oranges) and tannins (tan/browns) always exist, but the green color from the leafÂs production of green chlorophyll covers them up during the active growing season. OK. Rain or drought. If the summer is wet and the growth of the plant is accelerated then the sugars produced in the leaves are used to a greater extent because of increased terminal growth occurring in the plant. Fertilization may produce the same result. The longer that the "good" growing conditions of the season continue, the more carbohydrates (sugars) are used up to produce the new growth. Secondarily, seed production may affect and reduce sugar content in the leaves. If new terminal growth is limited by drought or drier conditions the sugars build and remain in the leaves and are used to a lesser extent. Fall rains seldom push new growth due to many plants reaction to reduced photoperiod and the beginning of looming dormancy in fall, therefore the sugars in the foliage are not greatly reduced. As a result, autumn rains (but not cloudiness) have a limited effect on foliage color. Anthocyanins are ideally produced with higher sugar content in the leaves combined with sunny, warm days (60Âs-70Âs) followed by cool nights (40-45°) with no freezes. So, if the sugars remain in the leaves, the fall being wet or dry, the fall color becomes dependent on the sunny days and overnight temps. The sunÂs effect on foliage color can be observed easily on white ash as the outer foliage in full sun tends to become red-purple while the inner (more shaded) foliage often is yellow or orange. If sunny days occur into fall and natural dormancy occurs (no early frost) then the yellows and oranges and tans/browns are allowed to show from the loss of chlorophyll. If the days are sunny and the nights fall in the right temperature range then the reds and purples from the anthocyanins are allowed to peak. If it has been cloudy and wet through the summer as well as the fall, then the likelihood of a brilliant fall are lessened. Hope this makes sense  this is my own conclusion from quite a bit of research. hortster

I did make an enquirer to them about the rose, but I did not hear back. They have sort of disappeared since early sept, but they do have a you tube video of the rose which could be helpful for ID. It sure does look like the rose I remember it was in terms of the color. The other sunset types had pink in them, and this one has no pink tint. Well even if I can't have it, at least I have a photo of it and an ID. Here is a link that might be useful: video of the rose

Lilyfinch.....that is very good information and pictures. Thank you! Your Goldflame is beautiful, even if it did engulf Blossomtime :) I have a small arbor that's very similar to yours. Maybe two Autumn Sunsets and a Goldflame are too much for even that! One question for you: does your Goldflame suffer with powdery mildew? I am reading reports of this from others who've grown it smithdale....I'm so sorry you lost your dog. 19 1/2 years! What a long and wonderful life he had. and dog-reminiscences are never off topic:) Embothrium....I've never grown lonicera before...partly because I've heard how they can become unruly. If Lonicera periclymenum even more vigorous I'm in trouble because I just bought 3 periclymenum from Brushwood: Graham Thomas, Munster, and serotina Florida. I do have a relatively large property, thankfully. But I may have to rethink growing them on structures. What's the best way to grow them? pat_bamaz7....your experience with Autumn Sunset echoes what I've read: it's quite vigorous. If I do decide to grow the Goldflame with the Autumn Sunset, I'll just do one on each side. I originally planned to plant two Autumn Sunsets AND the Goldflame! oh dear...