Veilchenblau on steroids

15 years ago

We took out some old disease ridden tree roses in our front yard, and a year later up popped some mystery roses which I presume are root stock (or "stem stock", if there is such a thing) from the same places. (I love it when roses just appear in the garden - root stock or seedlings. My old gardener disapproved strongly, and always wanted to shovel prune them immediately, which is why he doesn't work for us anymore. I always leave such roses until they bloom, as I am incurably curious). One of them turned out to be de la Griffierie, which I love, love, love - it is gorgeous, and so fragrant!

Anyway, my question is about another rose that also popped up nearby - right where another of the tree roses was. It looks EXACTLY like my plant of Veilchenblau, except that the blooms, the buds, and the leaves are all 50% - 100% bigger than the ones on my Veilchenblau. The blooms go through exactly the same color variations from the buds to full bloom. My Veilchenblau which I got from VG has clusters of tiny buds - 10-20 buds to a cluster. My mystery rose has medium small buds, and only about 5 to a cluster. They are both in partial shade, and are both blooming right now, at the same time, and are of course both once bloomers. I don't know the growth habit of my mystery rose, as my husband hard pruned it last year as it was in the way of his lawn mowing (can't get rid of husbands like you can gardeners), but it appears to be putting out some very vigorous new canes, so it may be of a climbing habit. The leaves look like the ones on V, but are a darker green. (So sorry - no pics. I did just buy my first digital camera, but haven't taken it out of the bag yet.)

So, does anyone know of any rose that is like this? Was Veilchenblau used for root stock? Could it be some wierd sort of growth variation of V? Thanks for your thoughts -

Jackie

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Comments (8)

paparoseman
15 years ago
I looked through the Vintage website at the ramblers since your other newly growing rose was a rambler. I found that the hybrid multiflora rambler I.X.L. could be your unknown rose. It is very nearly thornless and was used for years as a rootstock for tree roses and has the right color of blooms.

In any case I would strongly consider that your rose is a rambler of one kind or another.

Lance
sherryocala
15 years ago
Hey, Jackie, it looks like you guessed right and Lance found the rose. According to HMF, your rose's parents are TausendschÃ¶n Ã Veilchenblau. Pretty cool. But Vintage says it mildews in their climate. Nobody has any photos either. Time to take your camera out of the bag!

Sherry
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>And I've heard that sometimes Ghislaine de Feligonde needs spraying in certain areas. But I still think it's really pretty. I still haven't ruled it out for another empty spot in the yard. Do you grow it? Is it doing well for you? Thanks Mary. I think it would be good for your other spot too. I've been growing it (still in its original pot) for the longest time... almost 2 months now. So I'm really an expert on that rose!!! :D But anyway, so far it's absolutely perfectly healthy in maybe four or four and a half hours of midday sun here on hold awaiting planting. Perfectly healthy, in spite of the times when I've watered too late and in spite of some bits of rainfall lasting off and on all night or most of the night (like last night). It's a vigorous grower (similar to Fortuniana here bought at the same time--both in 2-gallon pots) and needs to go into the ground, but I'm not planting any of the new ones in the new spot until I'm fairly certain that the spread of RRD among the pot ghetto of new roses has stopped... and unfortunately I'm not at all certain of that at this point. My book by Barbara Wilde speculates that more people would have heard of and tried this rose if it just had some more prosiac name like "Carefree Garland." Peter Beales says "I can't think of a good reason why this rose has not gained the popularity it deserves." Beales lists it as shade tolerant enough to be planted on a north wall or northerly aspect. For me, one of the attractions for this rose is its appeal as a shrub/climber in the landscape. Fragrant prolific blooms that are cuttable are a plus. As far as no-spray goes, I'd think that the most pertinent experience would be from someone in your own area who has tried it, even though I'm seeing writers from widely different areas who think it's strongly disease-resistant. I'd also think that if someone trying it does use chemicals on other nearby plants, that that practice might have an effect on the overall health of the healthy soil balance of micro organisms that the plant depends on to make its own disease-protection systems work. Judging from the information I've seen from Paul Zimmerman, a more pertinent question for local rosarians might be about the disease-resistant conditions of the plant in year three or four of growing in a no disease spray yard, not in year one. If plants are left alone in a no-spray yard to develop their own disease resistance, it might take 1-3 years to accomplish that. But by year four, if the grower isn't feeling comfortable that its looks/health are acceptable and an asset to the yard, then you might chalk it up to a rose that doesn't meet your standards for good disease resistance and not try it, or get rid of it if you've had it that long. That said, sometimes a rose is just so disease resistant that it seems healthy from day one in an organically oriented yard. Like Mortimer Sackler, this rose might be one of those kinds. Anyway, I'm thrilled to have a Ghislaine De Feligonde and if it goes to RRD, I'll for sure be ordering it again. Best wishes, Mary
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Nik.... I think if you leave it where it is, as a freestanding shrub, you are going to have to support its canes with something, I don't know what... I wouldn't want to grow it that way, if it is FEL, and let's assume it is for now... my plant was grown on a partition fence within my garden, not on a boundary, and it grew to about 10-12 feet width before I moved on... it develops thick strong canes, thorny too, and made a heavy plant... at one time I thought it would bring the fence down, so I had to reinforce it...think of it as a mini Kiftsgate... and as you can see from my photos earlier, it's growing on a wall in that garden - best place for it... I was disappointed in that I couldn't detect a great scent either, as I had been led to believe it possessed... ...looking at your rose again, its habit does remind me of it too, canes flying out everywhere, rambler type... they need tying in... ..best of luck with your 6 foot cane approach, but rather you than me...
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jacqueline9CA
Original Author
15 years ago
Thanks so much! It does sound likely that it is I.X.L. (the name is not very romantic, and it is a beautiful rose, oh well). I have only been able to find one picture of I.X.L. anywhere on the web. It is on HMF, but it is completely the wrong color. However, you really can't judge anything by one picture, so I will keep looking, and someday I will take a picture of my rose and post it here! Anyway, I am going to keep it, and see how big it gets - that is the sort of garden I have - nothing is very structured or disciplined - there are just huge roses rampaging all over the place. Thanks again for your help -

Jackie
jerijen
15 years ago
IXL (sometimes called IXLR)grows in several places at historic Rancho Camulos, Piru, CA:

{{gwi:268264}}

It was commonly used as rootstock for standards, but at Camulos, we have also seen it used as rootstock for climbers.

{{gwi:268265}}

Jeri
organic_tosca
15 years ago
That is LOVELY, and looks as though it would fit right in with the charming garden style Jackie mentions.
jacqueline9CA
Original Author
15 years ago
Jeri - thanks so much for the great pictures of ILX (I still think it deserves a better name!). The blooms look identical to what I have except that mine does not have the orange tones at all - it is a dark bright raspberry pink that fades to a sort of mauve/grey (not quite the lavender of Veilchenblau). However, I realize that could be the light, etc., so I do think what I have is ILX.

I visited Rancho Camulos last weekend with a friend - I was meaning to thank you for the recommendation, which you posted last Spring. It was so fantastic to see an original Mexican hacienda - I even liked the fact that not all of the buildings have been restored yet.

Hope the fire in Santa Barbara has not affected you - it looked really scary on the news last night.

Jackie
jerijen
15 years ago
Jackie -- I am so glad that you got to see Rancho Camulos! It is (as you saw) really a unique place.
We are so fortunate that it has survived, where most of its kind have not.

Yes, I think the color difference is likely lighting, and the difference between one monitor and another. I agree that IXL is lovely.
And that's the thing about rootstocks.
In most of the places that we run across them, we see Ragged Robin (Gloire des Rosomanes), Manetti, and a form of Odorata that was commonly used.
They're all gorgeous, though some (including Dr. Huey) don't have a long period of bloom.
The best of the bunch is Ragged Robin, which blooms continuously, and is among the most disease-free of roses in Southern California.

Jeri
User
15 years ago
That IXL looks like the pictures and carvings of the Tudor rose - the petals have the exact same shape. I always thought that depictions of Tudor rose were highly stylised artistic fancy. I guess not!

Avalon

Veilchenblau on steroids

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Veilchenblau on steroids

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