"After a, what, 50-60 years of mostly HTs and florabundas, are the newest any better than those being introduced by J.H. Nichols in the 1930s?"

Yes, I would say they are (but then again, I'm in California). In general, they are much more disease resistant, more vigorous, the roses will grow on their own roots, most of the time, and the flowers last longer. And the bush shape tends to be more bushy, less lanky with "bare knees."

However, the newly introduced roses tend to be generally less fragrant and the flower size seems to have decreased. So it's a matter of what's in fashion that determines what gets introduced. That part hasn't changed.

I think J&P missed the boat on disease resistant varieties, allowing Radler and his Knockout Roses to grab a huge market share.

I have not grown a lot of HTs, so I was interested to see what HT afficianados might have to say.

I thought that J&P failed to understand and respond to changes in landscaping and lot size. After about 1980s if I remember correctly, ranch style houses weren't being built, and lots and lawns were much smaller than in the 50s-70s. In a small lot, briliantly colored HTs and floribundas stick out like a sore thumb; they no longer necessarily have the green lawn and shubbery background against which they looked so well in earlier times. The background recently tended to be a beige or grey wall or patio or sometimes a mound of dirt with a few rocks artistically arranged. The leaf blower clan of hired gardeners didn't know how to do any gardening which did not involve power equipment, so the new roses which had looked so enticing in catalogues were less than impressive when neglected in people's yards. The great virtue of ubiquitous roses like knock out and iceberg is, IMHO, that they are hired gardener proof.

I can't say too much about Jackson & Perkins HTs in general, but I have two roses from them relatively recently bred, 'Pope John Paul II' (HT) and 'Sweetness' (grandiflora) and both are exceptional disease resistant in my organic no-spray garden. The fragrance is outstanding, too. They grow own roots, are vigorous, and form a relatively bushy plant. I really love these two and hope that they will stay available in the future no matter what happens to Jackson & Perkins. To me these two are improvements in many ways in comparison to some of the older HTs.

Christina

Here is a link that might be useful: Organic Garden Dreams

Part of it for me, was it seemed like J&P were continually tinkering with roses similar to ones they already sold. Rather than introducing a new unique color, often they would intorduce a new fragrant red, that was supposedly competitive with Mr. Lincoln, or a new version of a pink, a yellow, etc...

I don't mind those, but rather than 12 versions of blooming reds, I would have rather seen some different choices from them.

I don't know about J&P roses, per se, but I can attest that the newer introductions in my garden are more disease resistant than my older roses that were introduced in the 1960's. That said, I have only 3 roses introduced in the 60's, and they are the most blackspot prone. Form, color, and fragrance all seem to be on par with the newer introductions.

My biggest beef with them is that I garden on the acid Pacific Northwest soil and Dr Huey just doesn't do real well as a root stock. How about a rootstock for us? I have a number of own root roses but it would be nice to have the new roses that do better on grafted root stock...one reason I buy Palatines roses.

They change names constantly too. "OK, this name didn't sell good, let's rename it and see if it sells better!" Ugh, I hate that!

Lizalily, J&P has recently been selling a lot more own root roses.

What turned me off was the deceptive advertizing and the claims that almost all newly introducted roses were disease resistant. I know a number of gardeners who were disillusioned forever from growing roses after being captivated by their photographs, forking out the bucks, and watching their roses fail to thrive.

They looked great at the nursery as a Mother's day gift but they were a bust in humid climates unless you controlled BS with fungicides--it is no wonder that Knockouts became popular.

Seil said "Lizalily, J&P has recently been selling a lot more own root roses."

Yes they have but that doesn't mean SQUAT. I have shared before a copy of an email I got from one of their "horticulturists" telling me my rootstock on a Peppermint Splash (sold as OWN ROOT not grafted) was the reason my rose was covered in pink solid flowers. This rose is not doing well after two years now (it did best in its first 6 months than it is now) and I took out half the bush recently because the striped flowers weren't striped. I am down to ONE CANE that blooms stripes. Love it when it looks like it is suppose to, but its a scraggly bush. My point above was that they are selling own root, doesnt make them better plants and even their on STAFF doesnt understand own roots.

I was just saying that maybe own roots would be better for Lizalily's soil conditions is all. Not commenting on their quality, staff or service. I rarely order from them so I'm not familiar with their staff or service. But I do buy the boxed ones in my local nurseries in the spring if they have something I like. They do have a rather predictable and boring selection so that's not too often. For the most part I've never had a problem with them growing even with their severely hacked off roots. And they're seldom mislabeled like the bagged ones are. For a lot of people that don't or can't order online they're the only game in town. And at least they offer more than just Knockouts which is rapidly becoming the only thing you can get at a lot of local places. Even one of my favorite local nurseries only had KOs last year. They didn't get any thing else in. Bummer!

IMO J&P did not serve the mass market well, although they certainly appealed to it.

Most people who have a yen to plant a rose bush in early Spring just want an attractive, solid performer with healthy foliage that is tolerant to the climate it is sold in, that does not require despoiling the environment with poisons to keep it alive and well.

IMO J&P never really delivered that. IMO they exploited millions of average people, and deprived them of a satisfactory gardening experience. On Mother's Day, thousands of mothers will look out their windows to find a rosebush their children planted for them on a previous Mother's Day, only to find nothing there but dead stubs.
Some of those unfortunate mothers will also be the mothers of deceased soldiers who never again will be able to plant a rose bush for their mother.

I feel that what J&P did to the general public was despicable, and that they deserve to go out of business. Even I, who knew little about roses initially, learned to plant better roses than J&P sold, before they learned to try to produce a better product. I must have wasted hundreds of dollars trying their selections over the years.

IMO there is nothing more shameful than marketing to the general public something that they not only can ill afford, but get little benefit from after making the expenditure.

I think that is a bit extreme. I have many J&P roses and the majority of them are still there and doing well. I've had roses from other sources not do as well. A lot depends on the experience of the person planting the rose and the conditions. I'll agree that J&P has severe customer service issues, but their roses are just as good as most out there. Or they were when I was buying them.

One rose brand was selling a line of "Hasslefree Roses" a number of years back and I had good success with every one of theirs that I planted--no need for poisons or any kind of special coddling; they were simply genetically healthy plants sold for the climate they would be raised in. No reason why J&P, with its superior resurces, could not have done likewise.

I tried to Google the "Hasslefree" line and drew a blank last night.

I am not speaking for the average Rosarian, but for the general public. There are, and should be, roses available to the general public which are claerly labeled as such and are almost foolproof to grow.

J&P tended to present itself as such but did not follow through in a fair and equitable fashion, IMO.

Your rose survival rate may speak more to your skills as a Rosarian than to the merits of the J&P stock.

Admittedly, I consider a rose unsuccessful if it cannot survive and flourish for at least ten years without special coddling. I also consider roses unable to survive long term (ie fifty years or more) not worth the effort of planting in the first place.

(My Hasslefree roses eventually died from lack of sunlight. I can't fault them for that.)

Well all I can tell you that I was a novice gardener, let alone rosarian when I first planted almost a dozen J&P roses. And I still have them all.

It's obvious you have a thing against J&P and you aren't objective. I haven't found them to be any harder or more difficult to care for than roses from other suppliers, or other plants.

I've had good luck choosing roses from J&P. At least three are absolute favorites of mine.

I do try to get mine to go ownroot, if I had to buy them grafted. I don't like grafted roses as much as ownroot in general (for me, here).

Baby Blanket, Magic Blanket and Roseberry Blanket are bulletproof. I use them everywhere.

I also really, really love High Society, a climbing rose of a wonderful color and fragrance. It can also take the heat like nobody's business.

There are others I like, but they are either less disease-free (but I still like them) or too new to form a complete opinion of yet.

(Did they release Greetings, btw? Greetings is such an amazing rose! No scent, though.)

I can not criticize their business abilities or analyze the reasons for their demise, but can tell that I discovered very disease-resistant rose Petal Pushers, bought several specimens from JP and was happy thereafter.
It is one of my best low-care performers for baskets and flowerbeds.

Perhaps the OP had it correct that many in the rose community began to develop roses exclusively for warmer climates. I, located in Pennsylvania, have a much more jaundiced view of J&P than posters living in the South.

Earwig, it is wonderful that you were able to discover a rose that works for you in your climate. My issue, though, is that with J&P, it was mostly a matter of luck or more knowledge than the general public would be expected to have regarding roses to find a rose from them that would do well. Their package labeling was not particularly helpful.

In the case of a $3 rose one could purchase in a supermarket, one could expect some problems. In the case of a $20 (or higher) rose in a fancy J&P box, it seems one should have been able to expect more.

Finding a good botanical product that is suited to one's environment should not be a matter of chance or luck. Products should be properly labeled. If Rosarians want to experiment with difficult plants, that's fine; but a company mass marketing to the public should have been more informative and, IMO, more responsible to the average consumer.

eibren, I agree with you that it is hard to compare apple and oranges. Zone 6 to Zone 8? I purchased many J&P roses that stated they were hardy for my zone. Paid to have the hole dug and filled with perfect soil. Winter protected and was faced with dead limbs the next Spring.

I think it is an insult to say "They grow perfect for me in my warmer zone" So it is my fault in a zone 6 that they died? I am at fault or do not know how to grow roses. These are insulting comments. When J&P have it listed as a zone 6 hardiness. They charged enough for their plants that they should have been zone tested before the false advertised info.

Perhaps the problems became more widespread when the rose industry moved away from many rose-growing companies, in different areas across the U.S., and began to concentrate in fewer and fewer growers, in fewer locations (and as it happened, mild-climate locations).
I think they made an attempt to mitigate that lack of variety by establishing Test Gardens in many areas, but STILL ...

The concept of roses that were great EVERYWHERE resulted inevitably in a lot of really disappointed, often discouraged, would-be rose-lovers -- who tried their best to grow tender roses in climates they weren't meant to grow in.

Even so -- J&P was a good, effective company for many decades. Until it was crammed into multi-national corporations with no real interest in roses.

In any case, if you want to know what roses will grow well in your area, you really need to talk to people who grow roses in your area. If you're growing roses in Minnesota, you REALLY aren't helped by my knowledge of what grows well on the Southern CA coast! You need a Minnesotan Rosarian -- and one in your part of that state, to boot.

Jeri, near the Southern Ventura, CA Coast

The label of Burning Desire says "spiral open from long, elegant buds, offering exhibition form, and begging to be displayed in a vase." Any idea what I might be doing wrong? I had a good size plant after a few years of TLC, but it would typically give me quartered centers, more like a OGR.

Maybe that should have read: "In perfect conditions, blooms 'spiral open from long, elegant buds, offering exhibition form, and begging to be displayed in a vasel' in other cases, they open quickly to a decorative form."

Catalog writing is a fine art, often abused.

Jeri (who loves writing rose catalogs)

Thank you to all who have joined this discussion.

I think the point Mr. Schneider was making in his article was not that J&P put out bad roses, but that there did not seem to be notable improvement from the days of J.H. Nocholas to the last decade.

What used to frustrate me was that J&P seemed to me to be pushing their roses as appropriate for all climates where roses could be grown at all. So, northerners got, I understand, annual roses which didn't survive the winter, and warm climate gardeners got pinks and yellows which soon faded to dirty beige. Where I used to live in CA, there were five locally owned nurseries within a fifty mile range, and all had nearly identical rose offerings, all from J&P. As if the J&P salesman had been told to push certain roses, regardless of whether they might be appropriate for the area or not.

It really seemed to me, when I started buying roses in the 90s, that J&P, and the other big rose companies had lost touch with their customers. One would think that a major change in house building and lot size and configuration would prompt changes in plant breeding; I used to wonder if the breeders ever went outside their greenhouses. Meanwhile, independent breeders, like Ralph Moore in the last decade of his life, were introducing mannerly, everblooming shrubs and climbers/pillar roses which fit perfectly into the new kinds of landscaping.

Anyone who wished to learn what is wrong with the American economy at present could easily determine that by reading this thread--unwarranted profit without redeeming social value.

:o/

It has been a mystery to me since I left college in the mid 60's why people with excellent technical backgrounds and degrees still were unable to make good salaries, or even find meaningful jobs. J&P's mode of operation explains it all: no qualified research botanists on staff, apparently, and no copy editors paid to create fully informative labels for each variety.

Multiply that by many of the basic industries in the country and it all becomes clear.

But I digress. Back to Hot Topics for me.

eibren, The same story can be seen throughout American industry, the short version being that somewhere the focus on efficiently producing an excellent product was lost. Once that goal was lost or abandoned the door of corporate success was opened wide for all manner of charlatans, poseurs and SDOs (Social Dominance Oriented--the supervisor/boss from Hades) to establish their own satrapies. Anyone, whatever his or her qualifications, experience and character who would not lie on behalf of or placate the satraps, low and high, was not welcome.

I have no doubt that Dr. Zary was and is an excellent breeder. The article I referred to (you have to subscribe to the American Rose Rambler, which is well worth the negligible cost) mentioned that Zary had recently introduced some nice hybrid rugosas; I hope they don't disappear from commerce altogether during time when the patents are owned by some entity on Mars. But, one has to wonder to what extent he was constrained, not only by corporate policy, but also by egos, agendas and jealousies beyond his control.

It's sad that, when I actually had enough sun for roses, it took me almost two years of research on the internet to discover the rugosas. Without my new access to the internet, I would never have discovered them. The published, generally accessible materials on roses at the time rarely went beyond marketing-oriented photos of hybrid teas.

I continued my search mainly because the hybrid teas looked nothing like my concept of what a rose should be. Apparently at a young age I had seen illustrations of OGRs somewhere, or maybe even the real thing. Old herbals also depict the OGRs, so that could be where I obtained my mental image of what a rose should be like.

It should not have been so difficult. Today we have so much more awareness of what a rose can be. J&P just did not keep up.

(Hansa is my favorite rugosa, big gawky thing that it can be, because of its fragrance.)

" . . . one has to wonder to what extent he was constrained, not only by corporate policy, but also by egos, agendas and jealousies beyond his control."

Keeping in mind that J&P's hybridizing program was, until the end, conducted about 3 miles from my door . . .

The Hybridizers didn't get to select what was introduced
They didn't even get to select the names (and some were pretty darned bad).
They made the initial selections of what seedlings went forward, but they didn't have final authority over introducing, naming, etc.
Many critical decisions were made by marketing people. (Feel free to despise marketing people!)

Don't even blame the catalog writers. If they want to stay employed, they're not going to write that a rose is only wonderful in Palm Desert, or Portland, or Albuquerque. And as someone who has been paid to make a bad product look good without telling a single lie, I urge you to read ALL advertising copy with some reservations.

My favorite piece of rose hyperbole came, not from J&P, but from Roses Of Yesterday and Today, in the Long Ago:
Noting that a certain big climber commonly mildewed, the writer enthused that the pink blooms contrasted beautifully with the soft, velvety, gray of the powdery mildew.

Even EYE wouldn't go that far!

Jeri

Jeri

Did they ever patent Veterans' Honor? I've looked but never found the patent number. I would be kind of ironic if BD was patented but VH wasn't--VH was released the year before BD as Lady in Red--both were "Rose of the Year," presumably with equal marketing?? The irony is that BD is gone from commerce, while VH is still a popular rose after 11 years.

Good question.

I know that an excellent yellow rose was intro'd several years ago, possibly not by J&P. I had earmarked it as one to try in the future...but now I never see it offered anywhere, and I cannot remember the name.

New, new, new.

Is it the rose clubs that encourage that? I don't think the general public knows enough to even notice if an offering is "new".

No. Corporate practice encourages that.
But it's nothing new.

Many Old Roses which were "introduced" multiple times, under multiple names, and sometimes by multiple vendors.

The public has a fierce appetite for new and novel. The Marketplace exists to feed that appetite.

Jeri

The "general public" does know if something is "new" if there is a big marketing push behind the rose. Like, David Austin Roses a few years ago. Many people were into "Victorian" gardens, and the Austin company was featured in a lot of the home/garden magazines, especially in Martha Stewart Living and on her TV show. Star Roses advertises the Knock Out series everywhere. And for many people, their first intro to rose growing is at their local garden center, which usually feature the latest AARS (www.rose.org) winners (and a lot of Knock Outs).

"Rose clubs" (at least the ones that I know of in NJ and PA) attempt to help a person select a rose suitable to their growing conditions and care habits. Whether that recommendation is an old or a new variety just depends on the expertise of the person who is being asked.

Jeri, in Jack Harkness' "Roses", he discusses mosaic virus and complains how the US gave it to the rest of the world. He stated how one American rose industry person actually said he liked the patterned foliage and thought it pretty. How's that for making a bad product good? Kim

Jackson and Perkins, IMHO, is a model for what went wrong with the rose industry. I don't blame only them for this, but they were the "face" of roses for decades in this nation, and they were responsible for leadership (or a lack of it.)

The public perception that "roses are hard to grow" (at least any rose aside from Knockouts) is a direct result of years of trading research and honest effort in for marketing and making a quick buck. There is no excuse for the endless parade of hybrid teas that fall victim to blackspot, the claims of "hardiness" from roses that are not at all hardy in cold climates, or even the lack of own-root roses or alternate root stocks.

I can forgive a company for trying to introduce new products vs. just selling classic, unpatented rose varieties, but when the new roses have the same problems year after year for decades, that just points to a complete failure on the part of the company.

People have put up with much more nonsense from rose sellers than they have with almost any other garden product: "hardy" roses that are not, "disease resistant roses" that fail to resist any real disease, and so on. Is it really any wonder that the Knockout roses have so effectively replaced all other roses? Why? Because they actually deliver what is promised, and most folks are so shocked by that concept - a rose that actually grows as advertised - that they will only buy that variety for fear of being lied to yet again.

While Jackson and Perkins may have at one time been a boon to the industry, they ended up being a perfect example of what went wrong: marketing trumped quality, and we were all left with dead, black-spot covered roses as the result.

radagast, That is a very interesting take on the rose market in the USA. I confess, as I looked over successive catalogues from J&P I kept seeing the same old same old, repeated year after year.

I have always thought that the best roses, overall, of the mid to late 20th century, before the advent of Mr. Austin's shrubs, were not the HTs or florabundas, although there have been some I loved, but the large flowered climbers. The progenies of New Dawn and R. Kordesii have been exemplary, with, often better hardiness and disease resistance, than the more famous groups, and offering flowers as spectacular and frequently more fragrant.

All I know is that I started out with J&P. I did have some roses die, but that's true of other vendors I've bought from And all my roses get black spot.

What J&P did for me was get me started. And I still have some wonderful roses. J&P sells what it sells. It doesn't prevent you from buying roses from other sources, or doing research about other types of roses.

I think a lot of the venom here is misplaced.

I am still very angry with J&P for patenting roses and dropping them just a few years after but forbidding others to produce them. For example, Pickering still won't ship Taboo/Barcarole to the US for this reason. Others could enumerate several other examples.

On the other side, in the last few years, their own roots were superb, at least most of the time.

Ummm.......I received it in April. That must be Pickering's rule, not J&P's. You're correct that Pickering won't send it across the border, but I received mine from Palatine. It's in the ground and doing fabulous.

I asked HMF to update the information on "Love" as it had the same indication regarding shipping from Canada (I received it also this spring), but I forgot to request that they change the information on Taboo.

The only thing preventing Canadian sources from sending roses to the US is patents. For many years, J&P didn't offer Jadis here. They owned the patent. Canadian sources grew it, but it couldn't be sold here by them. Finally, J&P reissued it as Fragrant Memory, a name US buyers could get behind while Jadis meant nothing to them (US). Walter LeMire, I understand, had legal issues with American patent holders many years ago for shipping patented roses across the border without paying royalties. At that time, there wasn't a Canadian Plant Patent Act, so there was no legal requirement they abide by royalties.

I can understand European origins brought in and introduced by J&P not being able to be shipped legally. For many years, reciprocal arrangements have existed between J&P, Kordes, Tantau, Meilland and others restricting stepping on each others toes. Kordes wouldn't ship anything to the US for some time because J&P had right of first refusal and they paid each other not to sell their varieties in the others markets. Anything that was introduced here was by their reciprocal agreement partner. Ralph Moore had similar arrangements with his European agents. If a Canadian source shipped a European variety here which J&P held a patent on, they either arranged to pay royalties to whomever or they did it illegally. I know some just won't ship anything that's ever been patented here so they don't have to deal with any potential litigation over it.