My apologies, all, I had intended to post this in in the Fruit and Orchards forum. I reposted it there; please reply there, if you're interested, as that's where this info will likely be most useful. http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/fruit/ (Note to self: drink coffee before logging onto GW....) --Jonathan

"With more trees is it likely I would need to rotate in another chemical?" Scape, I doubt with any backyard orchard (regardless of size) you'd see resistance buildup. I think if that were a significant risk it would be reflected on the labeling like it is on commercial products (commercial pesticides generally have a section on resistance management). Resistance buildup is a problem in commercial production. Off the top of my head fungicides like Topsin M, Strobe's, SI's, and insecticides like Guthion, Imidan, pyrethroids, etc. have all had issues with pest resistance. Even the herbicide "Roundup" has developed resistance issues. Backyard production is a completely different dynamic than commercial. The sheer numbers of food and pests make pest resistance a concern in commercial, whereas the small number of food and pests in a backyard make resistance a statistical impossibility. Think of it this way. If you were to buy a Powerball ticket every drawing for the rest of your life, you might buy a couple thousand tickets in your life, and you will never win the Powerball. Powerball jackpot odds are one chance in 175 million (about equivalent to the odds of getting pregnant - if you're a man). If, however, you were a multi-millionaire and bought 100 million Powerball tickets, you'd have a decent shot at winning the jackpot. In the same way, there are very slim odds (millions to one) a given pest (say a coddling moth) will hatch with some natural resistance mechanism to a given pesticide. If however, there is a large ongoing population of the pest in a commercial setting, the odds are much greater that farmer will come across an individual of that pest that has natural resistance to the pesticide being used. In that case, the pesticide will put selection pressure on the resistant pest by way of killing all the non-resistant population, leaving only resistant individuals. It's simply a function of numbers. The backyard orchardist will never win the "Powerball" as applied to insect resistance because he/she doesn't have the volume, whereas a farmer with 100's or 1000's of acres of production might develop insect resistance. It's for that reason farmers are strongly advised to use pesticide rotation and other resistance strategies to counter that risk.

Hello, for whatever it is worth, here is an update on the disease resistance factor on my roses. I was able to spend a lot of time in my gardens this weekend and here's what I found: Heritage does have BS, but much less than most other roses and is not defoliated at all. MIP and Zepherine Drouin also now have some minor BS. Clair Matin and Viking Queen completedly defoliated from BS. So has Frederic Mistral. Most all the roses look pretty bad. I felt discouraged and did not know where to start to make things look better. I think that next year i will just have to acquire more disease resistant roses to replace many of the ones i currently grow. That in itself feel pretty terrible since i'm so fond of my roses. It also feels overwhelming but if i do a little at a time, it shouldn't be so bad. One bright note: I checked a rose that is practically hidden in the garden (a Buck....Golden Unicorn) and was happy to see that it has no blackspot, the foliage looks great and it is getting ready to bloom again. This spring, Golden Unicorn will be relocated to a much better and more worthy space. And two of my chinas (Cramoisi S and Mme Franciska Kruger) have almost completely regrown their leaves after defoliating...they actually look pretty good right now. Also, for the first time i checked out all the knockout roses and plan to use a few next year for punches of reliable color. Thanks for listening, Shelley

Lori, it is interesting. I found here that my roses in a shadier spot tend to be taller, maybe because they are trying to reach for the sun. The bed where I intend to plant/keep Bourbons, HPs and repeating damasks was supposed to be morning sun and afternoon shade (based on the recommendation given by Pete of Belgium years ago) but it turned out to be sunnier than I expected. The 2 years old Jacques Cartier is about 5' tall, Indigo from Pickering is almost the same size, poor Maggie is barely alive and didn't do much of anything (I cannot blame her, I blame the lack of rain), Reine des Violettes is tall and bushy but didn't bloom a lot in her first year (again, I hope this caused only by the severe drought). Vic's Caprice was quite good last year and started well in spring but then everything stopped blooming in this bed except Prosperity. I am glad that I planted Prosperity there; this rose is absolutely wonderful and helps me to be less desperate by the non-performance of her "bed-fellows". I also have Baron Giraud in this bed on an obelisk. I do have there in the front row a no-Mme. Chevalier that I rooted from a cutting but when it bloomed it was similar to Indigo in color and quite tall; nothing like Amiroses' photos on HMF. Maybe it is M. Boncenne - I got the cuttings from the same person and the color is similar to M.B. This bed is almost full so I truly need a good performer and I do not mind a bit if that rose will be 5Â or less. But I want to get a truly fragrant rose.