UPDATE on daughters Scotts that was ran low on oil

14 years ago

Ok, first i have no pics, they dropped engine off at my house and i don't have a camera.

Second, i found the problem, and i do not know if it was due to low oil or not, might never be able to tell, i dunno.

I opened the bottom end first, nothing wrong, then i pulled the valve cover, inside was a exhaust valve spring, and retainer, rattling around unattached.

Pulled head off, and from inside cylinder, i retrieved the exhaust valve, in 3 pieces. I thought Oh good, will be a easy fix, then upon looking into the valve seat area of the head, the valve guide is also gone...

I retrieved the valve guide from inside the muffler, in about 30 pieces, no valve seal was ever found, nor the small metal cap that sits on top of the valve (if the exhaust has one like the intake valve does)

The piston top, and inside of head are scarred up but nothing that would hurt.Cylinder walls look fine.

first questionon this is, the valve guide replaceable? and by me? any question to its ability to stay in place if i "can" get one and replace it?

So i would need:

new exhaust valve

new valve spring retainer (old one has center hole broken out)

new cap for valve (if it has one)

new valve guide

head, valve cover, and bottom end gaskets

and a valve seal.

Think it is worth fixing? its a 17 hp Intek single.

Sort by:Oldest

Comments (8)

njdpo
14 years ago
its the valve guide part of the story that bothers me ... And what about the actual valve seat itself - what condition is that in?

I assume the valve guide - is pressed in - isnt it ?

I found it interesting to note that the valve gear / cyl head gave up the ghost first - I would have guessed a spun bearing or thrown rod first...

I guess the hot valve grabbed the valve guide and proceeded to make sweet love to it... and I assume the surrounding aluminum casting was witness to this disgusting event and left town via the muffler as well ...

Can you tell if the aluminum valve guide area is torn up, galled, or even melted ? If so - your most likely looking at another head.

I also wonder how much damage was/is looming otherwise - and wonder if spending the money on fixing / replacing the head is worth it ... (if its only 15 hours away from the crank going next ?)

Cyl walls look good - thats a good sign ...Squirt some Marvel mystery oil all over the place (cylinder, crank and rod bearings) while your trying to turn that engine over (by hand of course) .. that would at least allow some oil to creep back into the piston rings.

When turning it - do you feel any ... inconsistencies... notches or perhaps a scratching or a scuffing feeling ?

I might even go so far as to have a peek at the crank/rod bearings while your in that deep.

And what about the oil being low in the first place - does the daughter / son-in-law recall checking the oil last year? If they recall topping off the oil before using it last year - then your dealing with a leak as well... are you seeing any wet spots / cracked gaskets, leaky seals ?

If the motor was simply burning oil (and not leaking it) then the repair/replacement of the head itself might be a waste of time...

Just things to ponder while on the toilet.

But the disassembled and cleaned cylinder head will make a nice pencil holder for a X-mas present to that special someone ...
johninmd
Original Author
14 years ago
valve seat looks untouched
yes the valve guide looks pressed in
where the guide used to live looks smooth and shiny, like guide was just pulled out and never touched again, no wear or galling marks so i dont believe the guide has went up and down in its bore or anything like that.
But i dont know at what force they are pressed into their seat, or if a new one would be loose, or even be able to be replaced yet

Cylinder was oiled before anything was ever turned, piston and crank turn as smooth as they would in a good engine.No catches or 'lumps' as it turns, i have the engine bottom off and there is no aluminum crap in crankcase, whole thing is very clean.
They didnt as faR as i know check the oil last year, because all it was run was a test drive around the guys yard they bought it from, now i cant say how long it was low, or how much it was ran before they got it, but the old owner said they never ran it for a long time after buying it new.
Once or twice after buying it new and his son didnt like it and bought a different mower, this one sat for a cpl years.

Oh, i found the leak, its what ever crappy oil drain Briggs has on it, some plastic/rubber thing with a cap? if i repare it, ill scrap that and put in a steel pipe plug like older engines have .I think over time that is where the oil went, a slow drip after another.

Yes i plan on checking rod bearing surface before i do anything else too.
I cant say what caused it, but it sure looks like the spring to valve retainer on top of the spring gave up and released the valve, as the hole for the notch on the valve stem is broken out of the retainer. But that could just be a symptom, who knows. Ill wait till i get to pull the rod from the crank and see what that looks like.
Related Discussions
Scotts 2046 - Intek wont start
Q
Comments (13)
A few things to keep in mind when trying to "pin point" the oil leak. I have seen a few examples of "cracked crankcase" at the oil drain plug threaded port. This is nearly always due to "over torquing" the plug when changing the oil. I recommend using paste type "pipe sealant" that has Teflon in it's formula instead of Teflon tape. Nothing wrong with the tape, I just find it easier to brush on, or squeeze out, the pipe sealant than wrapping the tape onto the plug carefully and in the correct direction. Whether you use the paste or the tape, you should always clean the threads on the plug using a solvent that dries "oil free" (spray carb cleaner, brake cleaner, ether starting fluid). If you don't get the threads of the plug this clean, there is the possibility that tightening the plug will result in the sealant being displaced by the oily threads in the port itself. I also believe that you should not come back and "re-tighten" the drain plug WHILE THE ENGINE IS HOT. If you offer to tighten the drain plug WHILE THE ENGINE IS HOT, you will be able to "sink" the plug a little deeper (and it will not feel too tight) because the crankcase (aluminum alloy) has expanded more than the steel drain plug. The drain plug is a "tapered thread" plug (in most applications) and if overtightened when hot, will cause extreme stresses to develop in the cast aluminum crankcase when it cools. A few cycles of heating and cooling can lead to a crack developing in the drain port threaded area. The second thing to keep in mind when searching for oil leaks along the lower part of the crankcase is, be sure and look where the dipstick tube (if so equipped) fits into the crankcase. I have found a few of these that had a cracked O-ring. Beware......I've had a few "partsmen" at lawn mower shops tell me that the O-ring can only be obtained by purchasing the dipstick tube assembly. If this happens to you, go to a good auto parts house and "match up" an O-ring from kit stock. The last thing I can think of is to be sure and check the crankcase area where the engine mounting bosses are made into the casting. I have found (just once) an instance of where the crankcase was cracked into the oil sump at one of the "bosses". The story behind this one was that the owner had bought the tractor in "well used" condition. He noticed that the engine was missing two of it's mounting bolts and the other two were very loose. He replaced the missing bolts and tightened the others. About a month later he noticed a significant oil leak. He found (easily) a crack in the crankcase right where one of the mounting bosses blended into the main crankcase. He pulled the engine out of the chassis and discovered a 3/8" lock washer embedded in the underside of the crankcase. Apparently this washer was already "caught" under the engine when he tightened the engine down. I guess it took a month for the stress to fracture the block. Just some (rambling) thoughts.
...See More
20hp Briggs and Stratton burning oil, need advice
Q
Comments (14)
My experience with V-type engines has always been that one bank or head will fail before the other. Having said that, I will further state that I don't know if any of these Briggs V engines have a tendency for one particular bank to fail before, or more often than, the opposite bank. I do know that there are a number of things that can lead to head gasket failure, but "pin-pointing" a cause on these engines is hard to do and usually it is just better to make sure you perform the repairs carefully and correctly than to fret over what might have caused the initial failure. The one thing I would definitely check would be to remove the sheet metal shrouding (aka "fan ductwork) and clean out any accumulation of cutting debris or mouse nests. Other than that, proper torquing of the head bolts is about the most critical detail in the repair. Try to clean the old gasket "footprints" from the head and block using carburetor cleaner and a very fine, hand held "scotch brite" pad. Make your cleaning strokes (with the pad) follow the "long side" of the gasket outline. This means: Scuff/clean so all the micro scratches made by the scuff pad "run with" the gasket outline instead of "across" it. The benefit of doing this is: The scuff cleaning creates very tiny scratches in the metal surfaces of the head and block. If you scuff ACROSS the outline of the gasket, it has the "effect" of "digging a drainage ditch" or "plowing an escape route" for combustion gasses to travel through. If you scuff clean keeping your strokes in the same long direction of the gasket shape, you realize a benefit (instead of creating a potential problem). With the micro-scratches running "with the gasket", you create a multitude of "teeth" in the metal surfaces that "bite into" the "clear coat sealer" on the new gasket. This helps to secure the gasket better than having it just pressed against the head and block. If the gasket is "held better", it is not as likely to leak. Clean the surfaces with spray carb cleaner after scuff cleaning and blow dry with compressed air or simply let it dry "naturally". DO NOT clean the new gasket using carb cleaner or any other powerful solvent. Doing so could remove or damage the thin, "shellac like" coating that is on the new gasket. Whether you want to replace both gaskets at this time is a decision for you to make. If you decide to only replace the gasket you find to be leaking, you should at least check the torque of the head bolts on the other cylinder. DO NOT be tempted to "over-torque" the bolts. Too much torque on fasteners will distort both the head and the crankcase which will mean the gasket IS NOT "clamped down" evenly and will fail again soon. You will need to check and adjust the valves on each cylinder that you replace the head gasket on. Possibly Walt Conner or some of the other bona fide Briggs pros will offer comments about the failure rates of these engines and whether it is common to "go after both banks" at the same time or simply address the issue upon failure. In the automotive field, we usually replace head gaskets in pairs on V type engines, except in cases of failure while still under factory warranty. In warranty cases, the OEM dictates what you do. Sometimes they say "only the head gasket that failed". Other times they say "replace both".
...See More
Reasons for low pressure/low flow?
Q
Comments (15)
good one racket! poolguynj - sorry, didn't mean to confuse the uninitiated. This topic has been hashed out in lots of detail on this forum in the past. There is some good stuff related to this topic if you search for it. Pentair has posted some real world field test data taken over a few weeks time comparing variable speed to 2 speed technologies. The differences are not as great as you suggest and depend largely on the speeds the pumps are used and the length of time at each speed. Didn't mean to hijack....just thought that UK should know the biggest contributor to power consumption with pool pumps is pump speed. Keep the speed low and the power consumption is reduced exponentially regardless of pump technology. This is so important but yet I see variable speed owners on this forum who are running their pumps at higher speeds thinking they are saving money because it's a variable speed pump....not entirely true. The true savings come with low pump speed operation which can be achieved with a variable speed or a 2 speed. Obviously the variable speed has more flexibility than the 2 speed. Take advantage of the variable speed and keep the speeds lower than 1725 rpm whenever possible. This is where the variable speed pumps really have an advantage over 2 speeds. The 2 speeds cannot be designed to go much lower than 1725 rpm without efficiency falling off sharply as you suggested. By the way, I work for a major US company that manufactures variable speed motors and drives as well as standard technology PSC motors with multi-speed capability. I sell these components to the HVAC industry and work with their engineers daily to help meet their performance and efficiency needs. Hope this helps.
...See More
Scotts S2554 slowly driving me crazy
Q
Comments (7)
The carb came from the ROP Shop on Amazon. I've bought a few other items from them for other equipment and always gotten great products. No debris in the filter. About a year ago I cleaned the tank and replaced all the lines, so everything looks very clean. Since then it only gets Rec 90 ethanol free gas. I tried firing it up today and before I even tried it was already flooded. I cranked it for a few seconds with the fuel turned off to clear it since that has gotten it to start a few other times, and it backfired so hard it sounded like a shotgun had gone off in my shed. The force of the blast coming out of the muffler blew stuff around the shed and I couldn't hear a thing for about 30 seconds. Funny part, it started when it backfired so once I could hear again I realized it was idling calmly waiting for me to use it. I backed out of the shed, ran it up to about half throttle and it idled perfectly for a minute then abruptly died again. Ended up leaving it sitting for a few hours while I mowed the lawn with my brother's new Arians. Of course at the end of the day it fired right up without issue and I pulled it back into the shed.
...See More
metal
14 years ago
Good thing we didn't take out the MIL yet : )
johninmd
Original Author
14 years ago
Ok, i pulled the conn rod. its wiped pretty good, also top of piston is dented around edge enough it mashed into the top ring and broke it, so a new piston would be in order too, and from what i saw in the head, i would say a new head would be the best, so i talked to owner and i am going to order him a new engine, a 18 hp Intek online. its 449.00 including shipping, darn good price.
yea i was beginning to think the dropped valve was just a engine problem and not a mom n law, but from the looks of the conn. rod.. I would still say she had a hand in it, def looks like oil starvation there.
njdpo
14 years ago
Im glad you had a look at the conn rod / crank - twould be a darn shame for you to go through the head rebuild and find out that the crank was 15 minutes away from sh!tting the bed on ya...

I was thinking that if the valve guide area was clean - you might have a chance at a new guide. but you might have to peen it a bit with a punch... a bit risky... and with a dead piston and rings - whats the point in this exercise...

Upon re-assembly - I might go so far as to put a little on/off switch under the hood to prevent helpful people from being helpful to the point of not being helpful at all.

I agree with you on those crappy briggs quick drain / slow leak POS these motors have... I have one on my Scotts 2046 and its very wimpy looking - an occasional drip from it as well - it makes me nervous. It must be there to sabotage unknowing customers into newer equipment - nice marketing gimmick ... Im surprised the American auto mfg's havent utilized that piece yet... I need to get around to swapping that out with some steel pipe as well.

So the owner (son-in-law?) is up for getting a new motor then? Was the original motor - an 18HP Intek? (i think ive seen a few posting where some machines had 16 hP motors). Ive heard mixed stories about the Inteks - but my 20HP twin Intek has been a great motor (about 11 years old) ... I am reluctant to sell my scotts as its just soooo smooth and reliable ... (at least for me).

With the slow leak from that quick oil change doodad over a period of years - its a stretch to lay 100% blame on the MIL... But I wouldnt let her know that - shes got to be wrong at least once in her life...

BUT - I would hope that your daughter and son-in-law place some value (about $450 dollars worth ) on checking the oil upon every mowing... Although - I admit im guilty of occasionally not checking it myself.

I guess the good news is - that YOU dont have to break your tail rebuilding the motor - just installing it and get it rotating up will be nice...

May I offer a suggestion ? Please put oil in the new motor before starting it ... I'm told some new motors ship empty, and some with fish oil.

My buddy told me he smelled something funny when his brothers kid was riding around on a 50cc chinese motor cycle. The fish oil got thin when hot and you could smell it in the exhaust... "Something smells fishy" - after reading the manual they saw that they were supposed to change the oil before running it... The fish oil was in the motor because they are not allowed to ship it with regular motor oil in it...

Good luck with this effort - its been an interesting story...
walt2002
14 years ago
"does the daughter / son-in-law recall checking the oil last year?"

For crying out loud, the oil should be checked before starting the engine each use. A large number of engines are ruined these days because the EPA forced the mfgs to do away with the weep hole that used to divert gas from a little leak of the carb float valve so now it contaminates the oil. But that is another story.

It is fairly common for the valve guide to come loose on these engines and many have been replaced even though the warranty has expired up to at least 3 years old.

According to B&S, the valve guide is not replaceable calling for a new head. I have a fix for them plus just in the last few days, another poster had a local machine shop make a special valve guide for such an engine. Don't know how that will work out.

Depending on the age of this engine, it is possible that a complete new replacement engine might have been issued.

From yet another member, may be too late for you now.--"I called 800.274.4477 and spoke with a customer service rep about my problem. She then transferred me to a "senior technician"

Walt Conner
johninmd
Original Author
14 years ago
That quick drain thing is a piece of crap, and will get a pipe plug at least if the new engine has one.
His was a 17 hp Intek, new one is a 18 hp Intek.
And yes after i got to talk to them last night, they will be checking oil each time, well least i beat that idea into their heads for a couple of hours. But you know how far that sometimes goes.They do it again, i told them i dont even want to hear about it.
So.. i blame Briggs for the oil leak, and mother n law as well.Since she knew that thing leaked. (i didnt)
Yes a hidden kill switch wouldnt be a bad idea, if they used it.

Walt, It wouldnt be bad replacing one of those guides if they were made with a shoulder on top to prevent them from going into the cylinder, but anyway, the point is mute if you cant buy one and have to buy a head anyway.
You havea fix for them? love to hear it, or was that fix, to not get this type engine? LOL
I havent researched the age, but it is susposed to be one of the last JD built Scotts, thats all i know as of now.

On the specs of the new engine he ordered, it says use multi vis. synthetic oil. is this really necessary? Not saying he wont, but just asking.
And dont worry, it wont be started up till there is good oil in it either.
walt2002
14 years ago
"It wouldnt be bad replacing one of those guides if they were made with a shoulder on top to prevent them from going into the cylinder,"

Parts list does not show a Valve Guide being available though I suspect that there are other guides out there that are the same dimensions. Earlier OHV heads were bored with a stop ledge at the bottom as a stop for valve guides. I suspect they saved 1 - 2 cents per head by not doing this any longer.

"You have a fix for them? love to hear it, "

Too long to post here taking up band width. My email address is below, put in proper format.

Walt Conner
wconner5 at verizon dot net

UPDATE on daughters Scotts that was ran low on oil

Comments (8)

njdpo

johninmd
Original Author

Related Discussions

metal

johninmd
Original Author

njdpo

walt2002

johninmd
Original Author

walt2002

COMPANY

BUSINESS SERVICES

GET HELP

CONNECT WITH US

UPDATE on daughters Scotts that was ran low on oil

Comments (8)

njdpo

johninmdOriginal Author

Related Discussions

metal

johninmdOriginal Author

njdpo

walt2002

johninmdOriginal Author

walt2002

COMPANY

BUSINESS SERVICES

GET HELP

CONNECT WITH US

johninmd
Original Author

johninmd
Original Author

johninmd
Original Author