Well let's see........70 years ago would be ago post Dust Bowl time. Farmers were taught deep plowing or digging was causing topsoil loss but I think the hand spading has stopped mostly because of good small engine design. Why dig when you can till....of course increased gas prices may slow that down in the future. Personally I've wondered about the need to see bare soil at all. Weeds have a hard time getting a good footing if they have to root in 6 inches of mulch and most seeds under that depth don't make it through. There's no need to move soil. In fact the micro-organisms and nutrient moving bacteria are greatly damaged with turning over the soil. Mulched soil with consistent low nitrogen fertilizing probably is the best it gets.(seems that bacteria doesn't like high doses of nitrogen either)

Of course none of this will work in field situations but for home gardening it can be done.

when we moved to our house a number of years ago, it was weeds from one end of the yard to the other both front and back, it was a very neglected garden (and I use the word "garden" loosely) ;)

pulling the weeds by hand was about as effective as emptying a leaky boat with a teaspoon. I collected up all the old newspapers I could find, my neighbours were happy to get rid of theirs and I layered it with mulch on top everywhere.

when our rains came after our long dry summer the paper had broken down and up came more weeds everywhere. I collected up more paper and again put down a layer with mulch on top (I have to mulch in my climate anyway so it's just an extra step to put the paper down first) and that took care of about 95% of my weed problems in just two seasons. The newspaper also helps my soil hold moisture at the surface so I still use newspaper under my mulch when I have it on hand.

not only does it smother the weeds but it stops them from producing seed for the following season, and it might take a few seasons to exhaust the number of weed seeds already in your soil. for me it would take me a lot more effort and time to dig my soil than slap down some newpaper which is very quick to do (and I hate digging ;)

if that were my rose bed, the newspaper would be coming out about now :)

I read somewhere here that mulch, thick layers of wood chips of various sizes, uses nitrogen and can lead to a depletion of N in the soil. Now spading just turns over the soil and doesn't affect the soil except for the depth of the digging. And decompostion maybe takes place mostly by microbiial action? Using very little N compared to inches and square feet of mulch. Then I also recall from somewhere in my Master Gardening training, I think it was, that tilled soil forms its' own barrier to loss of moisture by drying the surface which then breaks down to fine particles, that sounds like fiction? Anyway I forget how that works.

Now small engines and tilling. Tilling replaced the tedious work of spading. But really it is not the greatest idea when it comes to weeds. It chops them then turns them over some of which end up on the top of the soil ready to root again. The roots of weeds are mighty tenacious and roto tilling just helps them spread. Needing further tilling. Maybe spading in end is less work?

Let's face it all that mulch is just a lazy way to avoid doing it a better way. And doesn't it really look sort of awful, sqft of sameness, nothing alive except the protected plants!

"Let's face it all that mulch is just a lazy way to avoid doing it a better way."

no I dont agree. mulch does many things, suppressing weeds is just one of them. It adds organic matter to the soil, it keeps the soil cooler in hot climates and slows down the evaporation rate of water and in cities with water restrictions that's very important. It also provides cover for insects and wildlife, which provide food for things like birds, it also provides food for earthworms which aerate the soil, it breaks down and increases the hummus level and those are just a few things mulch does. nature uses mulch as part of it's system, not because it's lazy but because it has so many benefits.

Spading the garden is tilling, it really makes no difference if you do the work with a spade or let a tiller do the work for you it is the same thing, and it disrupts the life of the Soil Food Web enough so that can take the whole growing season to recover. Many of us have found that no tilling is necessary of we maintain a good, healthy soil which does not necessarily mean no "weeds" but does mean fewer as well as much less work, except for those people that feel the need to abuse their bodies, :-).
Jim probably did see something here about mulches "robbing" the soil of Nitrogen, but he also should have seen arguments to the contrary. Good, solid research has shown that mulches will not "rob" the soil of N and that those that maintain they will have been tilling what was supposd to be a mulch into the soil so it is no longer a mulch. A mulch is a material, preferably vegetative waste, that is put on top of the soil, and a soil amnedment is something that is worked into the soil and the same material can be used for either purpose, so if you buy a "mulch" nad then work that into the soil that "mulch" is now a soil amendment not a "mulch".
Tilling soil at the same depth over time can result in what is known as "plow sole" and is an impervious, compacted soil layer that will keep water from draining, another good reason to not till. While mulching does result in getting a much better soil with much less work it is not a lazy way to avoid doing something better, it is a better way to make a better soil with less physical work.
trancegemini, even with a very thick mulch you may get "weeds", but they will be fewer in number and easier to remove mechanically from that well mulched soil. However, most of the time I see "weeds" growing in a garden bed it is because there is only a very thin mulch layer, simply not enough to even cover the soil.

> In fact the micro-organisms and nutrient moving bacteria are greatly damaged with turning over the soil.

I think the terms "greatly damaged" is a matter of opinion (or possibly, a gross exageration.) "Mildly interupted" may be a more accurate phrase if the success of my double digging is any indication.

I double-dig all my beds their first year in existance and on occasion after that. They can go years without re-digging but I usually double-dig a bed if it is getting a root crop like carrots that likes a deep bed.

Unlike kimmsr, I don't see any indication that my beds require up to a whole growing season "to recover." Judging from my harvests on newly dug beds, I think the "soil food web" is a lot more resilient or adaptable than some here believe.

I believe in using mulch as required. I don't see it as the answer to all gardening situations, and certainly, it is not the immediate answer to the problems of soil loss due to agricultural abuse. There is not enough organic material available for that purpose.

Wayne

I don't see any indication that my beds require up to a whole growing season "to recover."

I'll bet if you have good healthy soil your soil will recover quickly and spading is a mild interruption.

If you have poor unhealthy soil in the first place, then it might take a whole growing season to recover.

I love mulch and lots of it. I need it here in Texas by necessity due to the hot and dry weather.

I've used a heavy layer of grass clippings when weeds and grass try to invade on the outer edges of my garden.

Last week I put about a 3 or 4 inch layer of homemade compost on top of my garden soil. In a week or so I'll add some grass clippings or leaves to the compost layer.

I also use newspaper as an initial layer of mulch over the soil.

Mulch keeps levels of temperature and moisture of the soil more steady. If I lived in a very wet climate then maybe I would have to rethink my approach to weed control and mulching

Pete

Aw come on - first tilling gets slammed and we get labeled as murders of the soil food web while any possible need for it or benefits of it are totally ignored and now mulching is detrimental and those of us who use it are "just lazy"?

Ever think that maybe you just aren't doing it correctly?

No wonder that those new to gardening get confused when they read some of this stuff. Then they post questions like - "Help! I read somewhere that you should never till and never mulch your garden. Help me! what can I do?!!"

You know it is possible to grossly OVER-generalize. And it does not follow that what works for one works for all.

Do what works for you in YOUR garden but don't slap negative labels on those of us who use different practices quite successfully.

Dave

Well said, Dave. Thank you.

There's many people posting here who know a lot about gardening. But no matter how expert or informed they may be, I listen to their advice more seriously if they include phrases like "in my experience" or "in my opinion."

IMO there are many types of soil, many climates -- and many ways to grow a garden.

All the best,
-Patrick

Jim W said:

"Today for some reason I just started to spade. Then it all came back to me. This is an old but really better way to deal with weeds."

While messing around on the Internet today I ran across this web page statement:

"Organic farming can build up soil organic matter better than conventional no-till farming can, according to a long-term study by Agricultural Research Service (ARS) scientists."

You may find the reading very interesting, if you have the time. IMO, the entire site if full of good reading, as it relates to current and previous studies done all over the world. Personally, I practice the "I donÂt have to till" organic gardening; all that is required is to use well-cured compost, mulch, and limit walking in the beds. As has been stated, weeding is easy and the plants do fabulous. I trust there may be some interest in the link provided belowÂ

Blutranes

Here is a link that might be useful: Organic Farming Beats No-Till?

I think the one thing that we can all agree on is that there will be disagreement no matter what the topic.

Of course, if I'm right about that, not everybody will agree with me (which would make me wrong).

Blutranes--What about no till organic farming? I confess I didn't read the aritcle in the link yet. I'm just wondering . . . if no till farming builds up the soil and organic farming builds up the soil better than no till farming, would no till organic farming build up the soil better than either by itself?

Part of the reason I ask is that most of the no till advocates here are probably doing no till + organic (sounds like that's more or less what you're doing).

Bpgreen asked:

"What about no till organic farming?"

Although they donÂt state the size of the farms, I would guess that some kind of weeding technique is required to control weeds. The point is that minimum tillage (digging) does no harm to the soil, according to the study. In my own personal experience, it didnÂt take me twelve (12) years of study to learn what science made official last year.

"Part of the reason I ask is that most of the no till advocates here are probably doing no till + organic (sounds like that's more or less what you're doing)."

Again, I would guess that the sizes of the farms would require a huge amount of mulch to get the same results we enjoy in our home gardens. This is one of the arguments made as to why no-till organic farming is not feasible for large-scale farming. However, I would reason to state that we donÂt need a study to confirm that a shovel is not needed to work a "lasagna bed". Although you may remember a few members admit they built lasagna beds then ran a tiller through them to "mix that puppy up really good" a few years back.

When I started organic gardening (composting) most of the techniques I use were learned here on this forum, or as a result of comments made by members then researching them myself to learn what works for my climate. Bpgreen, you and I both know how much joy and ease of growing we both enjoy each year. Personally, I use fewer amendments each year including compost because of my practices learned here. I use compost tea, alfalfa tea, milk sprays, cured compost, charcoal, mulch, seed meals, seaweed, sea-salt finds, never ever tested my soil, and make compost in the winter too. I am not arrogant enough to state this is the best/only way to grow good "maters"; it is just the way that brings me happiness. Too many other members who use their own techniques with success keep me humble and willing to listen to their point of view. I have a lot of room over here; the biggest room is room for improvementÂ

Blutranes

No-till agrticulture relies on massive doses of chemical herbicides to keep those rows clean as a whistle. As Blutranes wrote, no-till organic agriculture would require massive amounts of organic matter to mulch a field.

In his book "How To Grow More Vegetables, my Bio-Intensive guru John Jeavons notes that agriculture's main obstacle to switching to completly organic methods is our current inability to generate enough organic matter, even simply to incorporate it into the soil. I believe switching agriculture to a no-till organic system, relying on mulch to cover the soil deeply enough to exclude weeds, is only a dream.

Everyone can point to local sources of organic matter for their gardens, but large scale farms that would rely on a steady, guaranteed source of material, would find it a lot harder than simply raking their leaves, saving their grass clippings and asking for a load of wood chips from the local tree company. They need a supply as steady as the chemicals from the farm supply store. Our food supply can't chance Starbucks saying "sorry, we're out of used cofee grounds today. Try again tomorrow."

Even the lowly wood-chip is getting harder to come by as utilities are converting electric generating plants in some areas to run on bio-mass. The same bio-mass we could always count on for mulching is now regularly being shipped on a large scale for burning in generators.

What works to grow a half-dozen tomatoes in a small back-yard plot will not work on a larger scale. Since I stopped market gardening (for which I could never have found enough mulch,) my home gardens have run to about a thousand intensively planted square feet and I still have trouble coming up with enough mulch for it.

Wayne

I agree that managing a garden plot or two is quite different than organically managing thousands of crop acres...... like starting outside my fence row. It would take using grass/legume rotations and cover crops which neither lends itself to high production and early planting dates with a minimum of labor.....plus you have the weeding problem. I used to cultivate row crops as a boy....lots of hours and fuel and soil compaction.

Thanks for the explanations, everybody. I forgot that no till farming required the use of so many chemicals. I remember when I first read about it, I thought it would cut down on the use of chemicals, but was quickly set straight by a relative who farms.

Wanted to open this thread back up... so I can hi-jack it! I'm a bit confused. So, after the garden is harvested what are you no -tillers doing with your mulches? I have always spaded mine into the soil a bit and then put the garden to bed with several inches of chopped leaves on top. The next spring I wouldn't dig that, in I'd just plant. If the soil is never spaded what about oxygen? Thanks

If anyone knows some good no-till web articles, please point me toward them :)

Once the harvest has been made the mulches can stay put, no need to till them in since the Soil food Web will do that for you, and any crop residue can be added to the mulch and then more mulch can be plunked down on topof what was there. Spading soil is hard work and is not necessary more than once, if that. If you do spade, or till, the summers growth into the soil then you will need to plant a cover crop to keep your soil from being exposed to the ravages of the sun, wind, rain, and snow. Soil should never be left bare.

After the garden is harvested, what I do with the mulch is put more mulch on top :-). Though really, not much remains in September of the several feet thick of leaves that I dumped on in December.

Kimmsr, I have been gardening the same area for 36 years now. For 35 yearÂs I would till in the spring and again in the fall. Moreover, I never planted a cover crop. I used a lot more compost than recommended by the experts. My soil was to the point that a front tine tiller would not pull it self forward. The soil was so loamy I had to put poles in the corn and tie groups of stalks to the poles to keep them upright. This resulted in a very productive garden with few insects and a healthy herd of worms. It was a rare day that a stranger would walk past the garden and not rave about it. I am getting to old to bounce around behind a tiller so this is my first year at SF/no till/raised bed gardening. So far, I am very pleased with the results and I am growing vegetables in 8" of 100% homemade compost, another no-no. I have documented my progress in my journal. Many gardening styles work just fine. Like Nike sez, just pick one and do it.


John

Here is a link that might be useful: Johns Journal