Are you sure that the roots are the problem? Your description makes it sound like a hsaded area- does the area get at least 8 hours of sun?

My trees are getting taller and I had to put the hit on a few (I understand that you may not have the option).

if roots truly are a problem and you are up for the labor take the dirt out of the raised beds so that you have about 12" of soil removed.. then lay down some landscape fabric along the bottom and sides of the raised bed and then put the dirt back in... I had this problem some while back with my bermuda yard trying to set up residence in my raised beds

Pablo, I can't be certain the roots are the issue but they are everywhere so I have to blame something. Roots are fairly thin and very strong but not sure what they are. I am a bit curious though if my problem isnÂt the soil. Each spring I till add a bag of spag peat several bags of manure and lime (spring and fall for the lime), so weÂll so how the soil testing goes. Just getting into composting but none ready yet. It gets plenty of sun the close trees are to the north and behind the garden area, south and west trees don't play a role in terms of shade. Again growth thrived for the first 9-10 years.

Bane, I thought that was a very impractical idea, that is when I wrote it down for my next year garden plans last November:). I was going to do this on one 10x4 area as an experiment but thought it would hinder the worms. SO I actually decided to try it on one small area this year, thanks. Any issue with lack of worms when you tried it?

Rich: Do you know what kind of roots they are? From what plants or trees?

Karen

"Each spring I till add a bag of spag peat several bags of manure and lime (spring and fall for the lime), so weÂll so how the soil testing goes."

peat every year? Manure and lime every year? Get a test or at least give it a rest this year! Mulch with leaves and that's it, IMO. The peat doesn't go away- it more or less builds up. Phosphorous may build up as well, from the manure (good for that root growth we're talking about :).

FYI- most people that I talked to in our area had a worse-than-normal year last year because it was such a colder and rainier season than usual. I had lots and lots of peppers, but few habanero or anchos ripened because of the temps. Year before last rocked house for me.

Where in MA are you?

Karen, weeds are unknown many large oaks in the area along with all sorts of woodland brush each just feet away from my garden.
Pablo, the weather played a role here as well last year tons of rain but my backyard maters and cucs were fine, just slow starting. The stunted plants were very scrawny yielding much less fruit/plant rather than the usual uncountable numbers, cucs withered away with only a few malformed fruit. I live about 20 miles south of Boston about 5-6 miles from the coast.

Don't give up! Think of how great you will feel once you fix it. :-)

Sounds like a bed that is possibly way out of balance both nutrient and ph wise. Excess roots thrive + stunded growth of plants = radical nutrient imbalance. But it can be fixed with compost - buy it if you can't make it soon enough.

All those additives annually to what is a small bed? You might be surprised at what a good professional soil test could tell you about how to fix it.

There is one other very slim possiblity that occurs to me because of the nearby forestd area and the stunted growth - are you sure what you are seeing is roots? Any chance they are nematodes instead? Parasitic nematodes look just like rootlets.

Here is a link that might be useful: Parasitic Nematodes

Absolutely roots, strong ones can be pulled for several feet until they break, some wonÂt break they just go too deep for me to yank out. Others are just stringy and easily break, but I think they are the ends of the larger ones. Are you saying poor soil can promote unwanted roots? Believe me I donÂt want to give up itÂs just been three frustrating years of minimal yields in this particular garden which is why IÂm asking for suggestions.

Sure sounds like roots! :-)

Are you saying poor soil can promote unwanted roots?

No, not really. I'm saying that roots thrive in soft, peatey, tilled soil (why pick hard ground to grow in when it can have that nice soft stuff?) that is acidic (due to the peat) and excessively high in phosphorous.

The roots of any plant (in this case - invaders) thrive in phosphorous while the plants themselvs display stunted growth because of low nitrogen. So it sounds as if all your nutrients are out of whack. And if the pH is too far out of whack too then the plants can't use the nutrients that are there. Highly recommend a professional soil test that includes pH.

God compost can fix all that - balances the pH and provides the needed nutrients in a form that the plants can use while neutralizing any excess.

I TOTALLY disagree that compost will fix a root problem. Roots will suck the life out of the soil no matter what you amend it with, and you'll have stunted plants, just like you've got! I'd try Pablo's idea of digging down and putting landscape fabric down there. I think that's the only fighting chance you'll have. Perennials wouldn't do very well there either.

If that doesn't work, I think relocating the garden is the only other option. I do know people who grow tomatoes in pots - really deep pots.

Deanna

I agree that roots are robbing the soil of nutrients, thus the stunted growth. However, I am not so sure landscape fabric will solve the problem in the long run. Roots will grow through the fabric as well, it is just a matter of time. The soil can not be considered poor due to all the organic matter that is being added each year. Add to that all the feeder roots that are being found, those feeder roots are feeding on something, and they are getting massive.

At this point the options seem limited; do the work to add the fabric and wait for the roots to grow through it then repeat the process; get rid of the tree and roots; or move the bed to another location. Building a raised bed will only give the feeder roots more mass to grow into and feed. Not good options based on the bond that has been expressed. Maybe someone else can offer better alternatives...

Blutranes

Thanks to everyone for your opinions and suggestions. IÂm fearing Bluetrans is on target with my situation and IÂm rowing upstream. Having said that IÂll get the soil test results to be sure where it stands. I will do a small section with the landscape fabric idea. IÂll purchase compost and dump it in sections and see how those portions respond. IÂll refrain from giving up totally thus no perennials yet. But I think IÂll scale back on the veggies until I know I can make progress.

The one part I donÂt understand is why all these roots are showing up in abundance after 10 years and not sooner. I realize roots continuously grow and spread but these trees and woodland brush were fully mature and in place when I first started gardening here. IN FACT my land was ALL woods 14 years ago when construction dug out my section of land to build on, so the there you have it.

I completed one small section with landscape fabric but I decided to add window screen under the fabric for additional protection. Not sure if this will impact the soil or not but you will let me know.

Half way done, notice the screen behind the fabric.
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Done with several inches of good topping. I'm not much of a project planner so this entire process took only 1/2 hour.

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you asked about worm problems with the landscape fabric... I have so many worms its like a worm holocaust every time I dig a new hole for a plant.. worms will crawl over the surface of the ground also and find their way into pretty much anywhere where there is abundant food... basically you have trees with masses of feeder roots as others have said.. usually when a tree starts sending out tons of new roots its because it cant find the nutrients it needs where the old roots were.. you need to be just as concerned about providing good soil and nutrients to your trees as you are to your flower beds.. the landscape fabric will hold them out for ptobably 5-10 years depending on the strength of the roots trying to invade... another solution Ive heard of is to put down thick mil plastic along the bottom then adding about 4 inches of gravel with a french drain style perforated pipe suspended in the gravel for drainage

I built a good sized lasagna bed on an area that worms could definitely not live in the soil. They would have to crawl 20' or so to get there from the nearest good soil. It's just full of the critters now (took a couple of years). They will find their way into that bed in very short order- especially with the yummy amendments that you added.

Impressive pictures and if you did all that in 1/2 hour then I have 40 acres of rock that could sure use your touch! :)

Just to clarify a point: gardenfanatic I did NOT say "compost will fix a root problem".

What I said was that compost would fix the nutrient and Ph imbalances that I suspect may exist in the bed.

Roots love acidic soil high in phosphorus. They don't care about nitrogen and potassium much. So IF the soil in the bed is excessively high in phosphorus and IF the ph is very acidic THEN the roots will thrive. However, IF the ph, phosphorus, and other nutrients are brought back into line (by using compost), THEN the invader roots will not thrive as much and other plants will.

It is not a cure, after seeing the pictures that is likely not possible, but it is an effective compromise with Mother Nature.

The roots have probably congregated there because that's where the best soil is, along with the most nutrients.

Deanna

digdirt the only area I dug was the small section with the fabric, only enough room for 1 tomato plant and some lettuce. That's why it only took a 1/2 hour.

With all of those trees I'd guess it was a shade problem. How many hours of sun did you say that bed gets?

Can you cut down some of those brushy treelets? Do you need them?

How do you till? I think if you tilled it nice and deep with a rototiller each spring, that would keep the roots at bay for that season.

reginacw the trees you see are north facing and do not cast any shadow on the garden, it gets 7-8 hours of sun per day. The bushes you see is the start of a heavily wooded and watered area, I have pulled some up but they come back. I till every spring and sometimes fall which used to be fine but now the roots are re-established by mid summer.

I think you need a bigger de-tree'd zone. Scrub doesn't start out that big, just pull it when it's little. You could do a round of brush-be-gone if you aren't worried about toxic stuff. Otherwise yeah, it would be work.

great suggestions above. In addition:

In my experience tomatoes will do great in an area for a few years and then do worse, and worse, and worse.

I suggest trying a different crop there, something you haven't grown there before, like corn, and see how it goes.

I hate to see you give up and chunk the towel in Rich. Let me share a few thoughts with you, just in case some of them might be something of value to you.

If you are confident that shade is not the problem, lets move on to the soil and roots. I do not know what your situation is but it sounds like quite a bit of lime, which may or may not be needed, depending on the pH of your soil. You know that a test would answer those kinds of questions.

As far as the roots, my experience with roots is that my main compost pile and my hot bed / cold frame are too close to a big ol Mulberry tree and the roots are invasive. As long as I use my compost up each year and turn it occasionally, no problem, but look at what the {{gwi:277859}} try to do to my Hotbed which is filled with rich compostables to generate heat.

The reason that I point this out is because the annual process of digging the compost out of the pit allows me to remove the roots. Digging in compost is very easy, much more so than the first time I dug the pit in the clay. I have quit even trying to line it with tin to keep the roots out, they find a small crack and come right on in.

Your 16' X 16' is a lot larger than my little hot bed, but probably not three feet deep like mine is. To plan on digging it out once per year would afford aeration along with an opportunity to turn in new materials when refilling.

If that is too big of a chore, perhaps you know someone with a little tractor with a front end loader, or could rent one or a bob cat for a day on the week end. I would think that a half day would probably be plenty time to handle a 16' X 16', and maybe even fun to play with.

If none of that is feasible, perhaps a couple of six packs some shovels and a gathering of friends with a little bar b que, potato salad, beans etc. would work. ":^)
Just sharing a few thoughts. The thought of not growing any home grown tomatoes is to traumatic to envision, Rich. ":^)
Bill P.

You have a lot of good suggestions Rich - Hope you keep this post alive and let us know how things turned out.

Good Luck

I used to post here some, and read a lot. Now I am mostly on the Kitchen Table forum at THS, but that is down right now. Thus, I want to tell my opinion here now. :)

I would agree with the folks telling you, the roots are invading the nice soft worked and fertilized soil. Only solution I see is dig them out every year, but you may be able to hold it down to every other year if the landscape fabric works. The worms should stay in there, if you already have some. New arrivals would have just as tough a time as the roots, in penetrating your barrier.

Have you thought of a chemical barrier along the outside of your bed?

Moni

Wow thanks everyone IÂm by thrilled how many nice people want to help fellow gardeners. Anyway great ideas and wish I could use them all but here is what I did today:

Yesterday I sent out a bag of soil to MA extension for testing.

Today I tilled and dug two additional holes one about 2x5 the other 3x3 and placed the landscape fabric on the bottom and sides. While re-filling I added a few handfuls of oak leaves. For top dressing I may have went overboard as I added 4-8" of finely chopped leaves mixed with some pine needles, a thin coat of last years weathered straw, and finally another inch of shredded leaves. Will this cause any transplanting difficulty?

Here is a picture of "some" of the roots removed from the 3x3 hole dug. This area is closest the side of the garden and has the maximum roots, while not the whole area has this many roots you can see what IÂm up against.

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That will be all the digging IÂll do this year but I will till the remainder of the garden and wait for the soil test results. IÂll do a mixture of veggies and annual flowers and see how each section fairs.

From Patty:
In my experience tomatoes will do great in an area for a few years and then do worse, and worse, and worse.
While I have a fair amount of space crop rotation is not something I can entertain as 75% of my veggies are tomatoes, just not enough room.

From Okl:
Have you thought of a chemical barrier along the outside of your bed?
No what is that.

From Bill:
I hate to see you give up and chunk the towel in Rich
The thought of not growing any home grown tomatoes is to traumatic to envision, Rich. ":^)

Great ideas on your post Bill, but this is all of this years effort outside of what the soil test recommends. And even if I eventually throw in the towel in this garden I about 400 square feet of backyard gardens space, so no tomato drought, and IÂm getting into self watering containers for more.

Twas a busy day as I started a good sized lasagna garden in a partially shaded area, but that's for another post.

Good that you made progress, especially in light of that awful storm which seems to be coming your way.

Karen

Received soil test results from U Mass, IÂll highlight what appears to be key points.

Soil PH is slightly higher than desired for most vegetables, no limestone is recommended.
Soil contains sufficient levels of phosphorus. You may apply the standard recommendations (provided) or you may provide sufficient nitrogen and potassium by using alternate sources to provide about ¼ lb nitrogen and ¼ potassium/sq ft.

PH = 7.4
Buffer ph 7.2
Nitrogen: NO3 -N = 11 ppm
Organic Matter: 12% (desirable is 4 Â 10%)

This portion was in graph form:

Nutriment Levels: PPM
Phosphorus 114 very high
Potassium 92 medium - high
Calcium 5652 very high
Magnésium 398 very high
Nitrate 11 low

Lead level in soil is low

Although IÂve never read on of these reports before this one my soil doesnÂt appear too bad. A bit high on PH and Organic matter above desirable range. I would really appreciate your feed back and if more info is needed from the report IÂll gladly add it.

Lots of fine (as in hairy, not as in "good") ;) roots as I suspected. They do love to harry (pun intended) around to lap up all that phosphorus. :-)

I'm glad to hear the ph was on the alkaline side rather than acid (as I feared) as it will be easier to correct and maintain. Organic matter level is ok but you can go higher and will need to to get balanced so I don't think there is any reason to worry about your recent additives.

I still maintain that the plot is not only salvageable but based on the analysis, with N additions and all the work you have done, it can be very productive. Good luck.

Hopefully my final questions.

With the PH at 7.4 should I just leave it alone for this season, it's a bit high for growing veggies.

What's the best source for adding N.

Compost will help reduce the Phosphorus and I should avoid adding any type of manure this year, right?

Following the advice received from this post here is an updated of the success I've had. The maters are still not as large as they were years back but they are larger now than any of the past three years. The squash in the back is the first time I've had success growing one there (several attempts).

The maters planted where I dug up and buried weed block doesn't seem to be any better than where I just tilled and composted.

I conclude that although the roots probably paid a role, the real problem was/is the soil conditions as many told me.

Thanks everyone I'll continue to improve the soil with shreeded oak leaves and compost.

BTW this was the first year I didn't use any Miracle Grow or any commerical fertilizer, I do use Neptunes Harvest every other week.
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Are you sure there isnt a maple tree near the bed? sounds like a raised bed 2 1/2 foot high, that I put beside my arbor--it filled up with maple roots at once. Landscape fabic dont work, trust me! I'm thinking of putting down old asphalt shingles under it next time--overlapped!