Is that the southeast? I thought that was considered the midalantic.

Anyway I would avoid sawtooth oak at all cost it is an invasive exotic in parts of the mid-atlantic whereever that may be.

If by "color" you mean fall color, the only trees on your list that I would plant for that are NORTHERN red and white. The rest aren't especially showy in the fall.

Not too familiar with hickories so can't help ya there.

As for "BEST oaks for the southeast" rather than try to select oaks for the entire southeast or midatlantic or wherever you are, how about we start with the site. What best describes the soil, sun, water and other growing conditions. What type of habitat or forest type was it before it was cleared and what was growing in it then?

I don't know the answer to your question, Pam, but you see hickories here and there in my area, so I picked up some nuts from underneath one a month or so ago and planted them directly into the soil in well-drained areas where I needed a tree. From the pictures of the leaves, bark, and nuts in my books, I'm reasonably sure they were mockernut hickories/carya tomentosa. The make beautiful color, even down here - I wish I had made a picture of one so I could show you. When we went through the Florida panhandle, their hickories were beautifully colored, and when I picked up some nuts from under those trees, which I have since planted directly also, I noticed that they looked just like the ones at home, just like mockernut hickory. My area and the Florida panhandle are both areas that get hurricane winds periodically, so mockernut hickory must be a good one. There are many other types of hickory that are native to your area that may be just as good, I don't know.
Live oak is obviously the best type of oak for any coastal area, but all the oaks are tough. I would avoid the types that tend to the lollipop, top heavy shape - those types come over on their own weight during hurricanes. Ask your forester which type of oaks tend to spread out the most - of course, whether they're planted in the open or alongside other trees has a big effect on that. The woods in the Florida panhandle east of Tallahassee are almost pure live oaks - they're slim under those crowded conditions, much like other forest trees.
For what it's worth, I've got a beech tree that I planted about ?8 or 9 years ago. It's grown wider than it's grown tall, which really surprised me - the beeches in the woods around here don't have the lollipop shape, but they don't stay short and spread out like live oaks, either. Maybe it's because I planted mine in a fairly big opening in the woods.
Sherry

Sawtooth Oak (Quercus acutissima) is not a native oak, so I would not plant that personally.

Around here, northern and scarlett oak provide great color. Water oak is fast grower but nothing to look at in the fall (still a nice tree). Pin oak is also a fast grower, but I don't think it offers much in fall color. I love white oak and it can offer good color depending on conditions.

Certainly a mix of those would give you some faster growing trees and some color too.

Good luck.

I agree with not planting Sawtooth Oak, besides the fact that they're not native, they're also ugly IMHO.

Some of my favorite oaks are..
White Oak
Swamp Chestnut Oak
Overcup Oak
Southern Red Oak
Cherrybark Oak
Shumard Oak

I personally don't care for Water Oak or Willow Oak. Water Oak can be quite weedy in the long run, and like esh_ga said, no fall color at all.

If your soil is somewhat sandy, Mockernut Hickory, Pignut Hickory, and Sand Hickory should grow well. Those are not the preferred hickories by nut lovers, but for naturalizing they should be great.

Sherry, I planted my first Beech this winter. From photos it looks like they have a similar form as Southern Magnolia.

Q. Falcata - good fall color, grows fast, doesn't mind heat, drought, or salt. Bomb-proof - a must have.

Q. coccinea has even better color, though not quite as tough.

I have Carya glabra but Carya myristicaeformis has a better yellow fall color. Carya ovata is nice too, great bark.

I'm on the Outer Banks, a windy zone 8a.

All those trees have tap roots, so you are better to plant small ones.

Ditto misssherry's list/comments 110%, plus I'd like to put in a vote for chestnut oak (Q. montana/Q. prinus). It can have a very nice bright yellow fall hue.

Carya ovata, spectacular fall yellows.

Oikos tree crops has good Hickory Seedlings. But seedlings are a hard thing to keep going especially w/ foraging rabbits in the winter :(

Mockernut hickory has a brilliant yellow fall color in north La. It will grow best in your drier spots. Another drier spot tree would be white oak. They have dependable deep red fall color.
Willow oak is a good wet area tree that has muted yellow fall color. It grows quicker than most oaks. Sometimes a few leaves will remain on the tree thru-out the winter.

Q. Nutalli - Nuttall red oak which is similar to Shumard red oak - for low poor draining clay soil if you have a problem with that part.

First, thanks for all your help. I've been working on seedling lists for weeks. The plan is to plant a fairly large number of seedlings this winter so I need to order soon. There seemed to be so many choices, I got stuck.

Sherry, from your posts, I thought mockernut hickories would do well. I picked up some hickory nuts last month - bitternut (Carya cordiformis) and a larger one. I read that bitternut is a good tall tree and something in the leaves makes it a good soil builder. The nuts are in the fridge so when I get home, I'll soak them for a couple of days, then plant them.

Alabama: Thanks for the recommendations, especially about Swamp Chestnut Oak (Q. michauxii) - it's a keeper. I plan to plant this oak in a place of honor and give it enough room to show it's stuff. White oaks are on the list and I'll try to find overcup oaks. I'll avoid the Sawtooth oak.

Sandyhill and Alabama - you both recommended Q. falcata. The VA Seedling program offers Southern Red Oak (Q. falcata) and Cherrybark Oak (Q. falcata v. pagodafolia) seedlings. Is there a significant difference between the two?

Sandy, you recommended Shagbark hickory (Carya ovata). I didn't think it would thrive this far south. Since you are on the Outer Banks and recommend it, it must do fine. I'll look for the other hickories. Wind is such a big factor here. I'm still adjusting.

QM: You recommended the chestnut oak (Q. montana). When I looked up "chestnut oak" in a "Native Trees" book, it was called Q. muhlenbergii or Chinkapin oak. Q. montana was described as a "mountain tree of the ranges that comprise the Appalachians and their foothills and extensions;" Q. michauxii was said to "grow in well-drained bottomlands of the Southeast." Is this correct? I'm still trying to sort out the oaks!

jqpublic - Thanks for the Oikos recommendation. I checked their site and they do have a good selection of oaks and hickories. Ah, rabbits. I have 2 dogs. They stay busy but they'll never put a dent in the rabbit population. I haven't told them.

scotjute, you and Alabama recommend the white oak so it is on the list.

Lou - I have a couple of Nuttall oaks and want more. I bought a few seedlings on Ebay last fall. The seller was from Arkansas, quality was good. I'll see if he has more.

You all have helped me narrow things down and cleared up some confusion. I appreciate your advice and help - thank you!

Take care,
Pam

Pam,

You might want to contact Texas Forest Service to see if they ship seedlings out of state. I got 50 Nuttall oak seedlings for 25 dollars plus shipping from there. Worth a try, I suppose.

Lou

Pam, I'm glad you picked swamp chestnut oak/q. michauxii - it's my favorite! It grows fast, and the leaves are beautiful - it even makes fairly good fall color here, so where you are, it'll probably make real good fall color.
I hope you'll keep us posted as to the progress of your seedlings after you've gotten them planted.
Sherry

Pam, of the chestnut leaved oaks there is...
Quercus michauxii - Swamp Chestnut Oak
Quercus muehlenbergii - Chinkapin Oak
Quercus montana (sometimes called Q.prinus) - Chestnut Oak

Both Q.montana and Q.muehlenbergii like soils that are well drained the majority of the time. Q.michauxii naturally grows in soils that are sometimes wet, but will also grow in drier soils. I have Q.michauxii and I have been impressed with it.

I stopped by the Georgia Forestry Commission to pick up some seedlings for a friend today and someone had a bundle of cherrybark oak seedlings waiting. They were good looking and huge! Easily 3 feet tall, perhaps more like 4 feet. Looks like they cost an extra $12 to ship, but perhaps that can include several types - I'd call and ask if you're interested. Their seedlings are always good quality and good sized (well, the pines are small). I've ordered from them for years.

Here is a link that might be useful: GFC order info

Q. Montana grows in sandy, well-drained soils in a local, forested county park here by the Bay in Maryland. They survived hurricane Isabel and the general coastal environment, so they should work for you. They have decent copper fall color most years, and the thick grooves in the bark are interesting (at least to me!)

Enjoy your trees!

Thanks for the response, the Rabbits were so mean to me this year. Got several trees from Oikos (mostly hickories and pecans) and the rabbits got to just about all of them. Theye also mauled my year 2 dogwood seedling that was putting up a great amount of growth! Good luck with everything!

Pam, you've got good advice about oaks, so I won't belabor. AFA hickories go, you understand that patience is required -- they're slow going as evidenced by my two Shellbark seedlings from OIKOS. In fact, you'd prb'ly go almost as fast planting hickory nuts instead of ordering seedlings (you can buy Hickory nuts online if you can't find them). Careful, deer love to chew off newly sprouting Hickory leaves.

In my local area, the largest/fastest wild hickory is, maybe surprisingly, Bitternut hickory -- there's a near 100 footer just across the road from my house that towers over surrounding trees. When I lived in mountainous SW VA, Mockernut/Pignut were the most common, tho rarely reaching 100'. Almost all hickories turn a decent to very good yellow in fall.

Pam,

Just for fun... Get Montezuma cypress (new mexico source for better cold tolerance), Montezuma x Bald cypress hybrid 'Nanjing beauty' and Bald cypress 'Shawnee Brave' to be planted as specimen... You probably will see that MC is faster growing compared to BC, probably twice as fast! They should remain green into the winter, longer than BC. Mine is still green while bald cypress is completely "bald" so to speak...

There's another tree I forgot to recommend, Pam - prunus serotina/wild black cherry. It grows fast - at least 3' a year - it's native to the entire eastern U.S., and it's one of the best wildlife trees around. It's the main host plant for tiger swallowtails and red-spotted purples, also many of the beautiful big silk moths, birds just LOVE the fruit, and butterflies and bees nectar on the flowers. Some people don't like them, because they also get tent caterpillars and some type of fungus at times, but I think they're great! And they sure give you a big hardwood quickly.
Sherry

Thanks to you all for the great advice. My list has changed a great deal over the past few days.

Lou: I checked the Texas seedling websites. There are two reforestation programs for Texas residents and the Indian Mound seedling program that doesn't seem to be limited to Texas residents (the website says "Cannot ship out of the United States").

Indian Mound has a good variety of trees at a good price (50 seedlings for $25.) including Nuttall, Swamp Chestnut and Shumard Oaks. Virginia doesn't offer these oaks and charges twice as much for seedlings. I'll put a link to the seedling store at the end of this post, in case others are interested.

The forester advised me to get LLP seedlings from a source as close to home as possible. How important is this for other trees? I can't find many of the seedlings I want in Virginia, but can often find them in nearby states. I can't consider Texas as a "nearby state."

Alabama: Thanks for clarifying the Chestnut oak issue. Just as I think I have a handle on oaks, I learn about half a dozen more.

Sherry: I'm glad you're a fan of the Swamp Chestnut Oak too. I wondered about the wild black cherry. I didn't know how it grows. It will be great to have a few trees that are faster growers. I'll add wild black cherry to the seedling list. This is becoming a very diverse list.

esh - I checked the Georgia seedling program - they limit sales to Georgia residents. On the order form, they require you to list your county and the county where you will plant the seedlings. It's too bad, they have very nice seedlings.

radagast - Thanks for the information about how Q. Montana does on the Bay. Based on advice from folks in the forum, I decided to plant a more diverse selection of trees than originally planned. In addition to conifers, hickories, sugar maples, tulip trees, tupelo / black gum, wild black cherry, etc., the list now includes eight oaks with 3 more on the "possible list":

* White oak (Q. alba)
* Swamp chestnut oak (Q. michauxii)
* Southern red oak (Q. falcata) or Cherrybark oak (Q. falcata v. pagodafolia)
* Nuttall oak (Q. nuttalli)
* Chestnut oak (Q montana or q. prinus)
* Scarlet oak (Quercus coccinea)
* Overcup Oak (Quercus lyrata)
* Live oak (Q. virginiana)

Others like red maple, sweet gum, wax myrtle, loblolly, juniper, will naturalize. I haven't started a list of understory trees yet. Well, that's not true. I'm not going there yet.

beng: I love hickories and bitternut is a good tree. You say it may be easier to grow hickories from nuts, given their slow growth rate, but that a big problem is losses from critters. I'd like to do this. I have some nuts and can get more.

I know hickories have long taproots that make transplanting more difficult. Would you start nuts in regular pots, or the special pots that air prune the roots, or plant them in the ground? If in the ground, would you plant 2 or 3 or 10 times more nuts than you expect to survive? I suppose this would vary, depending on the critter population. Deer aren't a huge problem where I live, yet. Rabbits might be a bigger problem.

Lou: I'll definitely look for the Montezuma cypress and hybrids you recommended. I've read several of your posts about them. It would be interesting to see how they grow in this part of Virginia, and compare their growth rates with that of bald cypresses.

I'll have my hands full of seedlings this winter. I decided to plant the seedlings on 2 acres this year, and tackle the rest next winter. I travel in my work and the busiest season is spring. I want to have enough time to get these trees off to a good start.Since I'm new, this is likely to be more time consuming than I realize now.

Here is a link that might be useful: Texas Seedling program

You're right about that, Pam, it will be time consuming, but you'll enjoy it SO much!
I planted my hickory nuts directly in the ground in well-drained spots where there's enough sunlight for a seedling to make good growth. I've planted a good many more seeds (I also planted some acorns and viburnum nudum seeds) than I actually need, knowing that some won't come up, some might get eaten by deer or rabbits, etc. I planted them closer together than the books say, because Mother Nature does it that way - I guess she doesn't read! :) I planted my hickories in the ground, because I'd read that they have a long taproot - I have some pawpaws (understory trees) that I planted in pots who also have a long taproot, and their taproots got so long I could hardly pot them to bigger pots quick enough (I mixed some chicken manure in with the potting soil) and not long after I'd potted them up in 3-gallon size pots, I noticed one of them was tilted. The roots had grown so big they were making the pot tilt, so I went ahead and planted them in the ground, even though it was summer - they've grown beautifully since then. Anyway, I thought it would just be easier on me to plant the long-tap-rooters directly. Even if deer or rabbits eat some of the seedlings, if they've got a good root system, which they're likely to have, they'll probably resprout. I'm all for making things easier when you have so much to do! :)
Sherry

Sherry: On personal note - thank you.

You are so generous in sharing your knowledge and experience with others on many Gardenweb forums. I've learned a lot by reading your posts. You educate and (more important), you inspire folks who love to grow plants of all kinds, and love wildlife, but who do not have much knowledge and experience so are easily discouraged.

Today, I learned from you that I can plant hickories, oaks, and some viburnums by seed/acorn/nut. I learned to plant as I see in the forest, which are not seedlings spaced 10 x 10. Tonight, I've been reading posts about favorite wildlife trees and shrubs and the benefits of black locusts and wild black cherries.

This must take a great deal of time - and you must be a VERY fast typist! Thank you!

Pam

Thanks for the kind words, Pam! Nature is my big passion alright! I post mostly on the Butterfly Forum, but this is the down season for butterflies and moths (they're mostly chrysalids and cocoons now) and winter is my prime tree planting season. I'm in a situation somewhat like yours, that is, I've got small acreage to plant.
I used to work in medical records in a small hospital, but one of my duties was medical transcription. Other employees used to stand amazed and watch my fingers fly over the keys - I am a fast typist! I'd run out of patience for posting if I weren't. :)
Sherry

Sherry, did you see that post on the Native forum about the book "Bringing Nature Home" by Douglas Tallamy? It is about gardening for the insect herbivores as a key benefit for native gardening. Of course the caterpillars of moths and butterflies are a big part of that population. He has lots of good information. I highly recommend it.

I haven't visited the Native forum in a long time, esh ga, but I'll check it out - thanks!
Sherry

I'll definitely order this book and add it to my library!
I've been aware of and concerned about the detrimental effects on wildlife of non-native plants for some time. I've got plenty of butterflies and moths out here in the country (although the big silk moths disappeared after the hurricane, and I'm working to re-establish them, but that's another thread) but in typical suburban neighborhoods, like the one my mother lives in in Hattiesburg, you rarely ever see the first lep. I've never seen a caterpillar on crepe myrtle, callery pears, Chinese privet, Japanese honeysuckle, or kudzu - it's possible that some generalist moths might lay eggs on these plants occasionally, but I've never seen it. I suppose the reason non-native plants are appealing to landscapers is that they never get chewed by caterpillars.
If there's one thing I'd like to impress on people is that chewed leaves are necessary in order to have a healthy food chain! None of my native plants that host gazillions of caterpillars have ever died from them, they just grow the leaves back and continue to grow and thrive.
So, everybody please learn to love caterpillars - you'll help the food chain and get lots of beautiful butterflies and moths in the process! :)
Sherry

Yes, that is his point, Sherry. Native insects (which are eaten by native birds and predator insects like spiders) by and large do not eat non-native plants. There are a few generalists species that eat some, but not enough. Therefore, non-native plants don't contribute much to the biodiversity in regards to contributing to the food web. Sure, some berries are eaten, but are a) not as nutritious for native birds, and b) not used in rearing chicks (primary food fed to chicks is insects) but later in the season only.

He also points out a few downsides to importing non-native plants - that is how some significant diseases (chestnut fungus arrived on the fungus resistant Japanese chestnut in 1876) and pests (japanese beetles, Hemlock Woolly Adelgid) have arrived!

Here's an abbreviated list for Pam and others of important native trees, shrubs, perennials, and annuals for lepidoptera in the southeastern U.S. - these plants will also bring other insects, which will in turn feed birds, and so on and so on.

1. prunus serotina - tiger swallowtails, red-spotted purples, cecropia moths, and others
2. sassafras albidum - spicebush swallowtails, several silk moths
3. lindera benzoin - spicebush swallowtails, others
4. persea borbonia and p. palustris - palamedes swallowtails, others
5. aristolochia tomentosa, a. macrophylla and other native aristolochias - pipevine swallowtail (pipevine swallowtail caterpillars will die on most tropical aristolochiae)
5. ptelea trifoliata - giant swallowtails, tiger swallowtails and others
6. boehmeria cylindrica - question marks, red admirals
7. asimina triloba and other native pawpaws - zebra swallowtails
8. members of the carrot family, including wild ones, like ptilimnium capillaceum - black swallowtails
9. various types of cassias, including the native cassia fasciculata and c. nictitans - many different sulphurs
10. mistletoe/phoradendron serotinum - great purple hairstreak
11.willows, especially native ones, like salix nigra and s. caroliniana - red-spotted purples and viceroys
12.various types of agalinis/gerardia and other natives in the snapdragon family - buckeyes
13.wild asters - pearl crescents
14.various types of cudweed/gnaphalium - American painted ladies
15.hackberries - hackberry and tawny emperors
16.wild passionvines, especially passiflora incarnata/maypops - gulf fritillaries and variegated fritillaries (certain red-flowering tropical passionvines will occasionally be used by gulf and variegated frits, but the caterpillars will die on them)
17.wild violets/viola, especially purple flowering ones with heart-shaped leaves - all true fritillaries
18.wild milkweeds/asclepias - monarchs and queens
19.robinia pseudo-acacia - silver spotted skippers and hoary edges
20.wild desmodiums/sticktights - long-tailed skippers
21.NEARLY ALL NATIVE TREES, BUT ESPECIALLY LIQUIDAMBAR STYRACIFLUA, DIOSPYROS VIRGINIANA, AND ALL OAKS - all the big, beautiful silk moths, plus the cute sphinx and underwing moths
Like I said, this is much abbreviated, but you can get more information from books like the one esh ga mentioned.
Sherry

For air-pruning hickories and other tap-rooted species, I think the "Whitcomb pot" is the type of pot you'd want. It basically has a grate or mesh on the bottom, which air-prunes the tap-root, preventing it from getting too large too quickly.

Your selection of oaks is quite nice, and the hickory are also good. Enjoy!

http://www.fknursery.com/availabilitylist/root_production_method.asp

http://www.tennesseewholesalenursery.com/prodcats.php?id=5006

http://www.warriorflatstreefarm.com/

Thanks to you all - Sherry and esh_ga, thanks for for the info re: native plants. I saved the list on my computer and on my Palm (that accompanies me everywhere).

I used to grow thousands of plants from seed every year. I got into big trouble the first year because I planted so many, they needed to be planted out, I had to leave on a business trip. I was planting seedlings in the middle of the night, using a headlamp.

BTW - If you need good light at night, look for a headlamp from Rayovac - you can usually find it at Walmart, Lowes, and HD. If you are working at night (or doing anything in the dark), use the red light - you won't lose your night vision.

radagast and QM: thanks for the info re: pots for trees that have long taproots. I saved this information and the links QM sent. I appreciate this - I've grown plants from seed for years - but never trees, until now. Another new frontier - thank you.

Pam

Check out the linked article below.

Direct seeding can work, though seed/nut depredation can be significant.
One strategy I've seen touted - mainly for black walnuts, but it might work for oaks/hickories - is to plant them 3 per hole, one on top of each other - squirrels may dig the first one, and the second one, but they seem not to realize/believe that there could be yet one more below those. I can't attest to success with this strategy, but it was proposed to me by a friend who'd done some extensive reforestation projects.

Here is a link that might be useful: Containerized growing of oaks & nut trees for outplanting

I bought some of the paper plant pots that I'm going to experiment with this year. They air prune the taproot and you are supposed to be able to plant the whole thing into the ground.

Here is a link that might be useful: Monarch tree bands

I've been laying in supplies of 1/2 gallon milk/OJ cartons for years, for the express purpose of using them as biodegradable pots - they are, for all intents and purposes, what a Whitcomb pot is - a square paper tube with the bottom cut out, resting on a raised mesh base so that the taproot will be air-pruned as it exits the growth medium.
I've grown a number of pecans/hickories/oaks in 1/2 gallon OJ cartons - which will last 2-3 years, in many cases, before the paper totally degrades or is eaten by termites, leaving the by-then tattered/holey thin plasticized wax film they're encased in. I have no doubt that I could plant pot and all, but I usually end up pulling the remains of the carton off, after I've back-filled soil around the seedling. It usually slides off relatively easily, without disturbing roots at all.

lucky: Next year, I'll collect more acorns and nuts - I got a late start this year. I'd like to try the 3 acorns in a hole system.

The article you referenced is good and contains a very clear description of the process. Since I have not grown trees from seed before, do you know if the following statement about white and chinkapin oak seedlings is true in all parts of the country?

"White oak, chinkapin oak and post oak seedlings tend to be small and slowly established in the first season. Initially, plant acorns in six-inch grow tubes and transplant to half-gallon milk carton containers by August. These seedlings will be too small to plant in the coming fall and should be stored over winter for another growing season before planting."

I ask because most trees (and most everthing else) seem to grow faster in areas with mild climates. I don't know if this would affect transplant times for members of the white oak family. Do you find this true for other trees (a 1.5 or 2 -year period between planting seeds to transplanting seedlings?)

Alabama: what size plant bands did you order? 4" or 6"? We use milk and OJ cartons to freeze fish and shrimp but I like the Zipset system - you have everything you need in one package.

Pam, I think mine are the 3x3x8, with 16 per tray. I bought two sets. As for the growth of white oak seedlings, I direct seeded some white oak acorns in the ground last year they grew between 10-14 inches in one season. White oak is a slower growing tree no matter where it's planted.

I'm planting a lot of acorns and hickory nuts directly, plus planting a lot of them in containers, covered with mesh to keep out squirrels. If you have plenty of seeds, you can do this, and it's well worth losing some to critters to get some that come up right where they're planted.
Sherry

I've been reading about Rootmaker (whitcomb product) and apparently they produce significantly faster growing trees with superior root system. I tried to order a few rootmaker starter trays to try out acorns but they had 50 dollars minimum order so I and someone else split the difference. I wasn't able to find acorns but I have 400-500 Montezuma cypress seeds to try out although I don't have enough starter trays for that many seeds!

Alabama: 10-14' sounds pretty good for a white oak in the first year. And you directed seeded them.

Last year, I bought 3 white oak seedlings that were about 12-14" tall. I watered them and mulched them. They looked good for several weeks, then suddenly dropped their leaves in July or August. I thought they were dead but now I read that oak seedlings sometimes drop their leaves, then re-sprout the next season. I'll wait and see. Even if they do resprout, they didn't grow, so they are still 12-14" tall. If they are direct seeded, are they less likely to feign death? I think I need to do more direct seeding.

Lou: It strikes me that there are so many variables when growing trees from seed. I imagine a system that works great for one person may not be perfect for another who is growing a different species or in a different climate. I hope you'll keep us posted about the Whitcomb Rootmaker product.

I'm in the market for inexpensive tree shelters. The forester said they make a big difference in growth rates and survival, that trees grow twice as fast. Very seductive. On the Oikos site, the smallest Treepro Treeshelters (3 1/2" x 2') are $2.50 each!

If you are planting lots of seedlings, and paying all costs, those tree shelters are just too expensive. I thought about buying 1 case of 24, putting them around 24 oak seedlings, then measuring the growth and mortality rates of sheltered v. unsheltered seedlings. Before doing that, I'm hunting for less expensive tree shelters.

Take care,
Pam

Pam,

I'm not sure what you meant by that but i think you're missing the point. It's about developing better root system regardless of where you plant, what the climate is and what tree species are. Better root system means better/faster establishment. It is a pain in the butt dealing with one long tap root that get circled around in the container. You have to mess with it to get it straightened out and not to mention more digging to get it deep enough. You don't have to worry about it with rootmaker's way. You just simply dig a hole and drop the tree in and move on.

Here is the info from rootmaker website about seedlings plant out..

Question: Do you have any information on the use/success on the out planting of container seedlings grown in RootMaker II containers directly in the field for conservation/reforestation type projects?

Answer: Tree seedlings in RootMaker® II propagation containers are routinely taken to the field when they are 12 to 16 inches tall and 3 to 4 months old. This has been done by hundreds of nurseries across the country. Most do fall planting  September or October and some have drip irrigation and others do not. (Drip irrigation assures nearly 100% survival. But even without drip irrigation, the success rate is quite high, except for the occasional severe drought immediately following planting). The primary reason for planting tree seedlings at a larger size is that in the small growth stage, telling seedlings that will make winner trees from culls is tough and the cull rate may be as high as 25 to 30% or more for the oaks. In one gallons, the cull rate drops to 7 to 10% and with 3 gallons to 2 to 3%.

That link for Indian Mound Nursery is also definitely a keeper! I've already bookmarked it.

pam,
check out treepro tree shelters, at the link below

QM: Yes, great prices and their seedlings look good. Resin said provenance shouldn't be a problem so I placed an order tonight, after the Green Bay-Seattle game.

lucky: Many thanks for the link. I've been reading about tree shelters - the more I read, the more confused I get. I welcome advice from people who are familiar with them. Today, I found the Tree Pro site and an article about a study that compared 3 types of tree shelters (link below).

In the study (2006), two sites were prepared and planted with seedlings of two bottomland species (F. pennsylvanica and Q. pagoda). The seedlings were enclosed with 4' shelters of different types: BLUE-X ($1.26), Protex (?), and Tubex ($2.64). There was a control group of unsheltered seedlings. The seedlings were observed and measured once a month to determine differences in survival and growth rates.

Findings after the first year:

* survival rates were essentially the same, regardless of the type and cost of the shelter

* height growth and emergence rate (when a seedling reached 4 feet) were greater for sheltered seedlings but shelter type (and cost) made little difference

* seedlings in Protex shelters had the greatest diameter growth

* it's too early to know if the diameter and height growth rates are temporary, or if this will slow down after seedlings emerge from the shelter

Any thoughts about these findings? I'd really like to find an effective but inexpensive tree shelter.

Pam

Too bad the American Chestnut Foundation doesn't have any resistant 15/16 American nuts to release to the public yet - it would be a great chance for you to plant some Chestnuts!

Although they're not a good coastal/lowland tree.

How are your trees doing pam? Any pics?

bump?