I wouldn't do anything to them for a while except to make sure that they're well-watered at all times. I put my bands (none of which, however, have been HP's) in the shade outside after I unpack them and then gradually move them into the (morning) sun over a period of about a week.

It seems to be a common belief that HP's need more fertilizer and good soil to do well but, depending on their origins, some may be more high-maintenance than others. Grandmother's Hat, for instance, seems to be a very tough and relatively low-care rose, and it may also depend on how well your roses like your particular climate. Since most of them have large and many-petaled flowers on large bushes it seems logical that they would need good nourishment to flower well.

Ingrid

Beautiful color, but my Paul Neyron is a darker hotter pink.
Did your soil amendments change coloring?

I read that in Paris, ladies would request
Neyron Pink - referring to the specific shade of pink to their interior designers.

I have Baronne Prevost and Grandmother's Hat, the only HP's I have. They don't seem to take any special care; I treat them the same way I do all my other roses. They are both easy roses for me.

I would love to have Paul Neyron. But, no room. However, he is on my (mental) list.

Great picture!

I have several HP's. I make sure they are in good soil and kind of watch over them for a few years while they grow a good root system. My Baronne Prevost is starting it's 3rd year and it has really taken off this year. I keep all my bands in a pot (3 gal) the 1st year so they can get a decent root system going. Some varieties need 2 years in a pot before they get a root system that I'm happy with. If I REALLY want a special rose, I'll take extra good care of it when it is a baby. That way I'm happy with myself later.

I had for almost a year three HPs in pots. They were bought as bands and potted in one or three gallon cans. As for the root system, this is what I noticed. Grandmothers Hat had a very well developed root system filling up the three gallon pot with one especially large fibrous root circling the pot--whoa! Old Town Novato had a decent root ball filling the three gallon pot. Reine de Violettes roots didn't even fill up a one gallon pot. Quite a difference. Unsurprisingly, the more robust plants are "found" roses.

Anne

I have own-root Ulrich Brunner Fils and Grandmother's Hat and don't treat them any differently from my other roses, either (alfalfa pellets for everyone). My mother has an own-root Ulrich Brunner that is over 50 years old, growing in less-than-good circumstances (solid adobe clay, shade a lot of the day from a nearby cedar, and a long way from the hose), and it still does okay. I would say these two, at least, are not fussy.

I don't fertilize band plants with anything until they are well-settled into gallon pots (a month or two, at least), then use time-release fertilizer.

Debbie

Straw, I always appreciate your posts. The other day my Dad picked up a sack from Lowes, "HapiGrow landscape mix". It looks like 100% pine bark fines. I was so happy to find it. I had been mixing up some "Al's Gritty Mix" & laboriously sifting regular shredded pine bark to get the called-for 1/4-1/8" sized pieces. This stuff is perfect & very reasonable. I'm adding it generously to roses going in the ground, mixing it up with good soil with gypsum in the bottom of the hole

The breeders of HPs were going for exhibition blooms, not plant health or fragrance. Sometimes they were lucky and those two features came along. Sometimes they did not. Providing the rich soil they prefer should contribute to healthy plants, and thus more resistance to disease that comes along. Not all roses require or even want rich soil, though none that I know thrive in poor soil.

Those of us in dry summer climates have somewhat less disease problem with many of them, though quite a few still get rust, no respecter of California's supposed lesser disease pressure. The following HPs have very little disease here for me.

Sydonie
Glendora
Yolande d'Aragon
"Grandmother's Hat"
"Old Town Novato"

Reasonably healthy and well worth growing:

"Forest Ranch Pom Pom" (some PM it may outgrow)
Ferdinand Pichard (PM when young, seems fine now)

Marginal, but so nice I've kept them in my garden; YMMV:

Anna Alexieff (quite a bit of PM)
Henry Nevard (rust a good bit of the time)

I once grew Baronne Prevost, supposed to be very healthy, but mine had disfiguring fungal issues which seriously compromised the health of the plant. I removed it, but it was dying when I did. I have considered trying again some time in case it was a fluke, but have never quite convinced myself to take the plunge. It was really bad.

Rosefolly

This post was edited by rosefolly on Thu, Apr 18, 13 at 22:26

Thanks you all. Strawberry, I have lots of pine fines (it's sold as "soil conditioner" down here). I will remember your tip. What is "fluffy potting mix"? Mine seems more "compressed".
Also, adding manure---Opinions vary from well-rotted to straight out the horse. I know the fresher it is the more danger there is with burning foliage/canes. But how old would it need to be if I put it in the bottom of the planting hole?
Catspa--what about alfalfa pellets? How often do you use them and how do you use them? I have a rabbit so I use her poo but hadn't thought about using her food.
Bluegirl--I will look for happigrow!
Is it the PH of the pine that seems to help with spots?
I have two body bag Neyrons (at least that is what they were labeled) that I am looking forward to seeing bloom.
I keep all my bands in gallons for at least a growing season.
thanks everyone for the info.
Susan

Susan, re alfalfa pellets: they need to be 100% alfalfa with no additives. I understand that some rabbit foods contain salts, molasses or such with the alfalfa and you wouldn't want that. I use a cottage-cheese-container-full (2 - 3 cups) for a regular size bush, twice that or so for the big, old teas (8' diameter +), spread out evenly under the canopy (don't let it pile up near the trunk of the rose). I do this once a year, in the late winter/early spring.

Keep in mind that I don't grow roses for exhibition or for garden showing, or prima donnas with extreme needs (natural selection sometimes has its way in my garden), and the growing season is long here, so there is no rush. I also grow roses that are usually only lightly pruned, and I do not remove leaf litter or any other organic matter except weeds with seeds. So, from an ecosystem perspective, the alfalfa pellets simply replaces the relatively little biomass/nutrients that do get lost from the system via pruning or weeding. It's a low-and-slow fertilizing method and YMMV.

Debbie

This post was edited by catspa on Thu, Apr 18, 13 at 21:01

Hi Susan:

Per your question of how old horse manure needs to be to put at the bottom of planting hole? Half-rotted is fine, by the time the roots reach that depth, it will decompose. Anaerobic (without oxygen) through burying release acids which bring down the pH of the lowest limestone layer of my soil.

Melissa in Italy buries half-rotted straw at the BOTTOM of her planting hole. She has alkaline clay, and it works great. But I don't recommend burying stuff if your soil is already acidic, or if you have dry and hot climate like Kim Rupert. Stuff decomposes fast buried in my wet clay and warmer underground (where it's -20 on top in my zone 5a) Stuff decompose less in sandy dry soil.

I had discussion with Ingrid regarding alfalfa pellets. It works great in her dry & warm climate where it decomposes readily on top. But alfalfa pellets is lousy in my wet and cold climate, where it gunks up on top, can't decompose.

Alfalfa pH is acidic at 5.8, perfect breeding ground for black spots ... I get BS on roses in pots, with that acidic gunk on top. I had done plenty of experiments where I induced both black spots and mildew by keep the surface wet and slightly acidic. Conversely, when the surface is kept dry and alkaline like mulching with horse manure, zero diseases.

I tested 4 types of potting soil:

1) MiracleGro regular (green bag) with fertilizer included
2) MiracleGro Moisture Control with fertilizer included
3) MiracleGro Organic potting soil, fertilizer and mostly composted pine barks (chunky)
4) Ball professional potting soil, composted pine fines, gypsum, peatmoss, vermiculite, which grew that Paul Neyron that I posted.

The regular MiracleGro (green bag) is most acidic pH, around 6.5. Plants are super-dark-green in that mix.

I don't like MG Moisture Control for my high rain climate, I found one inch of standing water in the pots with the heavy rain here. But Kim Rupert in CA likes that stuff... he has 7" of rain, compared to my 40" of rain plus 23" snow per year.

The MG ORGANIC potting soil with mostly pine fines grows the best root, since it's most loose. Ball potting soil is similar, but higher quality ... drawback? Ball doesn't have the slow-released fertilizer that MG Organic has.

I bought Jungle Grow potting mix from Sam's club yesterday, really cheap... a HUGE BAG (double the normal size) for $8. Many people who grow plant seedlings like that one ... it's very well-drained, so you would have to water it often, but you'll get deeper root growth. It has slow-release fertilizer with all micro-nutrients.

As to pile up horse manure, I won't recommend that unless your soil pH is acidic.

If you google, "The Long-Term Effect of a Single Application of Horse Manure on Soil pH" it will show how horse manure RAISE the pH of soil, making nutrients such as phosphorus, potassium, iron, manganese, boron, zinc, copper NOT available due to high pH locking up nutrients.

Horse manure provides decent calcium, but not much phosphorus (essential for blooming) due to high pH tied-up. I piled up horse manure (pH 7.4) on Golden Celebration and it became stingy. My soil pH is 7.7, so it doesn't help ... although Golden Celebration bloomed more the 1st year when I brought the pH down with peat moss.

I would test the pH of the horse manure first before applying. Also test your soil pH as well. The first advantage of alkaline pH of horse manure is prevention of fungal growth (both mildew and Blackspot). The second advantage of horse manure is beneficial insects and bacteria, which deter pests.

Hi Bluegirl: I'm glad that you found pine fines. I'm using pine bark mulch and mix right into my heavy clay. It's cheaper at $2.45 a bag from Menards. Since my soil is tested deficient in potassium I also mix Cocoa Mulch (NPK of 2.5-1-3, much higher than alfalfa at NPK 2-1-2). Cocoa Mulch is sold for $3.59 at Menards, but best MIXED at the bottom of planting hole... if dogs eat that stuff, they become sick.

Peat moss is most acidic at pH 4. Next is pine bark at pH 4.7 (the stuff in potting soil is neutralized by the addition of lime). Least acidic is cocoa mulch at pH 5.8 .... plants prefer a pH range of 6 to 7, so that stuff is great mixed in with the soil to retain moisture to provide NPK 2.5-1-3.

If you mix cocoa mulch into the soil, WATER it in immediately, so the chocolate scent would be gone, and dogs won't eat that. The pre-washed stuff is safe for pets. Cocoa Mulch is lousy & poisonous to pets on top, but great mix-in at the bottom of the hole.

Here is a link that might be useful: Cheapest way to test soil pH using red cabbage

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Mon, Apr 22, 13 at 13:10

Thanks Strawberry! I hope my Neyron is half as big as yours. How old is he?
Susan

Hi Susan: I bought him as a tiny band from Burlington, Paul was less than 5 months in that pot. Ball professional potting soil has gypsum (calcium sulfate) added. Both potassium and calcium regulate osmotic pressure.

In SOLUBLE fertilizer experiment, the biggest root growth was through high potassium, with calcium added. Since gypsum is expensive, less is best. There's a study on that: less than 10% of gypsum is optimal, beyond that it hurts.

Gypsum (calcium sulfate) is used to de-salt saline soil. It helps plant to withstand drought. Horse manure is also high in calcium, which balances out the salt in the manure.

Boy, that is one monster PN bloom! Do you do some pruning on HPs? I don't normally clip much other than the occasional old cane thinned out, but the comments that many HPs were bred & pruned for exhibition blooms makes me wonder if they are healthier bushes if some pruning after first flush is done.

They like a good feeding every year just before making the big buds. Mine rest through summer and then give a small amount of flowers in fall. All I am doing for them in summer now is watering and mulching with horse manure. Then I give them some added food like fish and kelp with more water in early September. They also get a light shaping in August. Your little bands might need light feeding all year to get them up to mature size.

They are pretty forgiving. I didn't prune until late and cut off the little forming buds at the ends of the tall canes. But I had to keep them off the wall so my neighbors won't spray them with roundup. They made a new group of buds and never looked back. I have even had rain spoil some big cabbage style ones and cut them all back by 6 inches and had a whole new group of flowers form. That's the worst when the rain gets in and rots them before they open.

Hi Kitty: Thanks for the info. of your roses .... kelp has all the micronutrients, good stuff. Michaelg did an excellent post on calcium for botrytis (balling). My soil is high in limestone, so balling is never a problem here.

I'm a bit surprised that my soil is tested marginally deficient in calcium, considering that I'm next to a limestone quarry. But if I bring the pH down, my soil releases lots of calcium. I still added gypsum to my pots.

Today I did pH test of 10+ samples of soil, I'll document some results here:

1) MiracleGro Moisture Control potting soil: the violet cabbage juice turns a weird yellowish color ... I assume it's neutral. Took a long time to absorb water.

2) Ball Prof. potting soil which the Paul Neyron pictured grown in: tested slightly acidic, around 6.7 ... perfect pH for roses.

3) Jungle Growth potting soil, which folks like to grow plant seedlings in. More acidic, around 6.5 ... It looks very much like the potting soil that Roses Unlimited use, with composted pine bark.

4) Composted leaves tested neutral in red cabbage juice: clear color. Leaves serve as buffer. About 2 worms per garden scoop.

5) Horse manure after our weeks of constant rain, tested slightly alkaline, around 7.2.

6) Heavy clay mixed with leaves and composted alfalfa meal: still alkaline, pH 7.5. Original clay pH is 7.7.

7) Heavy clay mixed with fresh pine bark mulch: quite acidic, around 6.5. Dry & fluffy. Not much earthworms.

8) Heavy clay mixed with peatmoss & alfalfa meal & coarse sand: Neutral pH, above average in earthworms, but less moist than I hope for.

9) Heavy clay mixed with cocoa mulch: slightly alkaline pH 7.2 .... but there are TONS of earthworms, very moist. I get at least 10 earthworms per scoop and put them into my pots ... they serve as "manure-machine" for my pots.

There're tons of earthworms down the hole where I mixed cocoa mulch with my clay soil. It's like an earthworm farm! That's many times more earthworms than soil mixed with grass clippings or leaves.

I achieved my goal of fixing the high end of the raised bed ... where it was so dry last summer that the tomato plant didn't give any fruits. Mixing cocoa much resulted in better moisture retention than peat moss, and WAY-MORE earthworms.

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Wed, Apr 24, 13 at 18:46