ah, that is the question? stand back and dodge the mud slinging!

I do not recommend tilling the sod into the soil. What I would recommend is trying to lift the sod, like cutting it into squares and sort of slicing under it to remove just the sod part. Take these blocks of sod and turn them over into a pile which is a nice start to a compost pile. Plant in the soil underneath where you have removed the grass. Add some organic matter if you can. If I don't have compost I buy bagged "humus" or "compost". Another alternative would be to make a smaller planting at this time using the cardboard/newspaper and raising the beds, but just on a smaller scale. I have had good success with these newspaper or lasagna beds.

The debate on tilling versus non-tilling aside, tilling sod into the soil with the intent of creating a planting bed is not a great plan. All you will achieve is a grassy, weedy planting bed. louisianagal's recommendation is sound. If you have the time to wait, simply cutting and turning the sod over, root side up, where you intend the bed to be will create a good planting area as well. With roots exposed, the sod will die and decompose, the time involved depending on your weather conditions.

Where are you? What is your soil like? These things can have a part of which choice, to till or not to till, you will make. Most places you can cover the grass with newspaper and a mulch, to help hold the mulch in place and hide the newspaper, and the grass under the newspaper will die (lack of sunlight) and the soil bacteria will digest that sod and mix it into the soil, unless you have one of the few soils this will not work with.
Tilling the old sod in simply spreads the roots around so eventually more grass grows, all else (soil fertility) being equal and tilling brings up "weed" seeds that have been dormant in the soil for years. Tilling also introduces a lot of air into the soil that will stimulate the soil bacteria into working harder and faster digesting any organic matter in the soil quicker.
Some people must till once to get organic matter into their soil while others need never till and just plunking the material on the soil surface is all that is needed.

Do you have a problem with your lawn? I am not following your question. Are you keeping the lawn for one more year or what? If what you are asking is a lawn question, you should go to the lawns forum and ask.

Ladykitsu -
It sounds like you are in the same boat I was 2 years ago. I thought I would do raised gardens but could not afford it so I sarted my garden on the lawn in the spot that I wanted the raised gardens. I first started to cut out the lawn but found the ground to be hard and full of rocks and clay, so the first year I dug only holes for the plants that I planted that year, adding compost purchased at the garden center, and for all the rest of the garden I layed down the newspaper and cardboard. All summer I piled on the grass clippings and layers of newspaper then in the fall I piled on the leaves. The next spring I had one large garden that I was able to turn with the spade. So I turned it, added grass clipping leaves newspaper and kitchen scraps along the way. I was then able to plant whatever I wanted where ever I wanted. I still do not have raised gardens but I am happy with the way this turned out. I continue to add layers of paper, grass, cardboard etc. all around my plants, that gives me something to walk on as I build up the soil. I hope that helps!

g'day ladykitsu,

there has been lots of chat about this subject in the g/w forums. for me it no-till ever.

so our pages for pic's and descriptions on how we do it.

len

Here is a link that might be useful: len's garden page

I know the tilling question is a hot topic, and IÂm honestly looking for other options given what I know about it. Because I canÂt afford any sort of raised beds I have to find some other way to get rid of the grass.

I am in the Denver area of Colorado. Planting season is in about 1 & 1/2 - 2 months away so I don't think the layered newspaper will work for now (though I will remember to plan further garden space with that in mind).

ItÂs a nice lawn, however itÂs bluegrass which IÂm allergic to, and eventually itÂs all going to be removed anyway. This isn't about keeping the lawn, it's about getting rid of large portions of it in a friendly way (no chemicals). Hopefully in the process, not totally ruining the soil structure, which is why I asked in the soil forumÂbecause I want a healthy soil to plant in.

If the sod was flipped over to decompose (rather than tilled in) would it be decomposed enough come planting time given the cold rotten weather here in central Colorado?

If I just dug up all the sod and flipped it in a corner to compost, would my soil be puny and lacking in organic matter given that the top 2 Â 3 inches are gone?

Thanks,
Laura

This 'can't afford raised beds' thing mentioned by a couple of you is baffling to me. I have 5 existing raised beds, and one enormous one in progress, will be ready by summer and tomato planting time. I haven't bought anything for them EVER, although we did use some screws that we already had to hold some of the (free) boards together.

Have you read the threads about lasagna beds? One typically puts in whatever organic material that can be obtained free into their raised beds. You put that down over cardboard on the ground. Horse manure, OPBL (other people's bagged leaves), fine wood chips, and old produce make up the bulk of mine, plus compost and/or dirt from elsewhere in the yard on top for the planting medium. Whatever is available free in your area, get some! In the fall I got about 40 bags of OPL and stockpiled what didn't go into my newest bed.

If you want a framework to the bed and not just raised soil (I have all mine contained) you use old boards you have lying around, or you get bricks or boards or what have you via freecycle or craigslist. Hopefully you are making compost all the while as well, that makes an excellent top layer for immediate planting into. Or buy just a smidge of soil to put on the top for immediate planting, or just wait a few weeks for the stuff to rot somewhat.

Some people put purchased items in, because they are not nervy or creative or persistent enough to get all the stuff free. But really there is no need for that unless you live in the desert far from any cows or horses or whatever.

Marcia

I agree with Marcia in a raised bed doesn't have to cost you lots of money. I just made one from boards we had here that we got for free-note never pass up free lumber. We had the screws from another project. I put down a layer of cardboard first, then lots of leaves, then coffee grounds from Starbucks, then I went to the horse farm, that was the thickest layer. I have now bought I think around 20 bags of top soil- that ran right under $30.
I want to buy a few more bags to do pocket planting with and also hope to top off it again, it shrunk a bit. I will top everything off with a layer of wood chips right after I plant. Then I will just sit back and watch my plants go.
Sandy

I lived and gardened in Denver. There are basically two types of soil base in the entire metro area. High calcium clay predominates or sand if in the Cherry Creek flood plain. I'm not certain about the South Platte flood plain since I never had an opportunity to garden there and wasn't interested enough to be aware when young.

I roto-tilled the lawn for my first garden. None of the grass resprouted, but the area basically became adobe since it had the clay soil base. A carpet of purslane appeared in the garden to try to protect the 'soil', but I did not know enough to let it be, or to harvest it for salad greens.

Next I tried double digging. It works, but it is labor intensive. If I hadn't had a pickup truck to collect organic matter, it would not have been as successful. The addition of organic matter (leaves gathered around the neighborhood in fall, manure, etc.)and the aeration raised the ground level 12 to 16 inches over a few years.

What ever you decide it is going to be tough going if in clay since the topsoil measures an inch (2.54cm) or less. I had occasion to dig down 10 feet (3.05m) at this same location and the clay was just as hard to excavate at depth, and only became lighter in color.

I suspect that the easiest way to get rid of the grass is to solarize it under a sheet of clear plastic. I had a remodeling job where a large pane of glass was removed. It was inclined it against a tree, but wind laid it over onto the grass. We didn't get to it immediately, and I don't recall how long it was down, but I do not believe it was an hour. The next day the grass was brown where the glass had been. Some experimentation would have to be performed to ensure the process fried the roots as well.

Terran

Hi ladykitsu...I agree in general with Marcia...use whatever materials you have at hand to make your raised beds. Mine are all 6" to 10" inches high...using old twoby planks...even pressure treated... that I had on hand and could scrounge up from friends and from construction sites. Over time I have filled them with compost...soil...which I dig in each year by hand. If they are not full of planting material the first year or two or three you use the bed don't sweat it...stuff will still grow just fine. If you can lay your beds side by side use the material from the second bed in the first bed...to help fill it up with planting material....continue on down the line shifting material from one bed to the next. Don't worry about grass regrowing in your beds if you leave the sod...mulch your plants in the beds and just pull out what grass comes up through the mulch...in a year or two the grass will not be much of a problem. Dig(till) or not dig(till)...:-) I dig all my beds by hand cos I like the smell of the soil...and like to bend the old back. I also use a tiller on none bed areas. I have been down the road of permanent mulch gardening...had alot of problems with slugs and mice making their homes under the mulch...cos that put them real close to my plants when it was meal time...:-) get the point...;-). Anyway...keep things simple...and watch out for the agents of voodoo and witchcraft...you will get a bunch of b--- s--- that you really don't need. Enjoy your gardening...Franklin

Start by contacting your local office of the Colorado State University USDA Cooperative Extension Service about a good, reliable soil test for base nutrients and soil pH and then dig in with these simple soil tests
1) Structure. From that soil sample put enough of the rest to make a 4 inch level in a clear 1 quart jar, with a tight fitting lid. Fill that jar with water and replace the lid, tightly. Shake the jar vigorously and then let it stand for 24 hours. Your soil will settle out according to soil particle size and weight. A good loam will have about 1-3/4 inch (about 45%) of sand on the bottom. about 1 inch (about 25%) of silt next, about 1 inch (25%) of clay above that, and about 1/4 inch (about 5%) of organic matter on the top.

2) Drainage. Dig a hole 1 foot square and 1 foot deep and fill that with water. After that water drains away refill the hole with more water and time how long it takes that to drain away. Anything less than 2 hours and your soil drains too quickly and needs more organic matter to slow that drainage down. Anything over 6 hours and the soil drains too slowly and needs lots of organic matter to speed it up.

3) Tilth. Take a handful of your slightly damp soil and squeeze it tightly. When the pressure is released the soil should hold together in that clump, but when poked with a finger that clump should fall apart.

4) Smell. What does your soil smell like? A pleasant, rich earthy odor? Putrid, offensive, repugnant odor? The more organic matter in your soil the more active the soil bacteria will be and the nicer you soil will smell.

5) Life. How many earthworms per shovel full were there? 5 or more indicates a pretty healthy soil. Fewer than 5, according to the Natural Resources Conservation Service, indicates a soil that is not healthy.
to better know what you do have.
You could till organic matter into your soil, once, but repeated tilling can be real harmful especially once the soil is made good.

Here is a link that might be useful: Colorado State University CES

ladykitsu - ignore the judgemental opinions about making and filling your raised beds. There are often very good reasons why someone is not able to accumulate all the necessary ingredients to create a raised or lasagne bed for free in a timely manner. Folks here seem to forget that some of us live in very urban environments or climatically challenged locations where adequate quantities of accumulated OM is not just sitting around free for the taking, especially in March!

Ideally, you would plan these beds well in advance of planting season - 6 months is usually considered an optimum timeframe. Not sure exactly when planting season may be in your area, but you are looking at probably at around 6-8 weeks before inground planting of edible crops in Colorado. So no, simply turning the sod, expecting it to decompose sufficiently and being able to plant into it this season is unlikely. Scraping off the sod and stockpiling to start you own composting process is a great idea but still leaves you with a less-than-ideal planting situation. The soil underlying sod or turfgrass is typically rather compacted, often lacking in nutrients and organic matter and poorly draining. It needs some help. Obtaining some OM in the form of purchased (if you cannot find any for free) compost or well-aged manure and working it into the soil initially (the one-time till method - seldom disputed as effective and non-disruptive in establishing new planting beds in a residential context) will work. And it is well worth the investment. Bite the bullet and buy what you need. If budget is an overriding concern, start small this season and plan ahead for next season.

ladykitsu -- I live in centennial, and I am in the midst of converting a 3000 sf area of former lawn through a combination of lasagna and raised bed methods. This is for a homeowner's assn., so we have to be very careful at every stage to make sure that no one gets the idea we are piling "garbage" or other questionable materials.

I have taken a more experimental approach, partly because we had the luxury of time (started 10/1 for 5/1 planting), and partly because of interruptions in our work schedule due to weather. You can strip the sod and use it as "bricks" to create a temporary berm while you build up the soil. I found this to be useful on a steep grade before we had the hardscape materials in place. Also, here in Colorado there are abundant supplies of horse manure from multiple sources. Most people put an advert on Craig's list, I happened to have a person with a horse ranch on our Landscape committee. So long as you have plenty of other meterial (grass clippings, shredded leaves) to mix with the horse manure, it is fantastic for converting the sod because it contains the necessary microorganisms for decomposing the tough root systems in the grasses.

Moisture is the single biggest issue in Colorado, and that will also slow down the decomp of the sod. From 10/1 - 12/15 I recorded very slow rates of decomp, despite plenty of warm days. After 12/15, on the days that I could actually get access to the area due to snowcover, the decomp accelerated greatly. Even with 4' of snowcover amazing things were happening to the lasagna beds!

If you started now, you could probably have something plantable by June. But you would have to constantly monitor the moisture levels. Decomp should speed up with increased temps. If you are working on a space that is not in public view (not a front lawn!) you might have the luxury of building up the beds as much as possible now, planting a "green mulch" cover crop over summer, turning that green mulch in the fall and adding a substantial layer of leaves, grass, and other materials to overwinter. Takes longer, but in our climate might produce better results.

The primary reason raised beds were devloped was to solve drainage issues, if your soil did not drain well the easy solution was build above that. If you have soils that drain well, ie. my sand, you will have a planting bed that is even more difficult to maintain an adequate soil moisture level because the drainage of a raised bed is much greater than flat ground. In discussion with people all over the world this past month we talked about raised beds and sunken beds and many people here are too young to remember when, in arid areas, sunken beds that would trap all the available moisture were all the rage. In some of the original villages of New Mexico and Arizona you may even yet see the signs of the sunken beds those people made.
so whether to have raised beds, or sunken beds, depends. Raised beds are not a cure all for every soil related problem that too many think they are. However, there is not a soil anywhere that would not be better with the addition of sufficient quantities of organic matter.

I think we've visited this subject before. Utilizing raised beds will accomodate planting in soils with poor drainage, but that is far from being the "primary" reason folks plant in raised beds.

Probably the biggest reason people garden in raised beds is increased productivity - one is able to double crop yields in a raised bed garden. But there lots of other reasons why these are so popular and it has nothing to do with drainage:

* The growing season is extended - the soil in raised beds warms up faster in spring and retains that warmth longer in fall, increasing the harvest period.

* Raised beds are easier to maintain. Intensive planting allows for less weed development and what weeds there are are easier to reach and remove. Since you don't walk on raised beds there is no chance of soil compaction, which destroys soil structure and reduces yields.

* Raised beds allow for less water usage than open cropping, a huge benefit for those that garden under drought conditions or summer water restrictions.

*Raised beds are a huge boon for aging gardeners or those with physical impairments that prevent bending, kneeling or heavy digging. And since raised beds are typically accessible from both sides, they are able to be tended with very lightweight handtools.

* Raised beds offer the opportunity to control plantings - either by restraining overly aggressive spreaders or by placing plants beyond the reach of pests like rabbits (very easily fenced off).

* Since the soil in raised beds is imported, one is more able to adjust soil for specific growing conditions than you can in open plantings. They are ideal for growing acid loving plants in areas with more base or alkaline soils, as pH in raised beds is more easily adjusted and less buffered.

* In addition to offsetting the drainage issues involved with heavy or clay soils or low areas where water may accumulate, raised beds allow the possibility of planting in other less-than-ideal conditions, like where there is a preponderance of tree roots or the soil is extremely rocky or sandy.

Posting a very narrow and very personal view on the reasons for utilizing raised beds is of no benefit to anyone on these forums. We all need to a bit more openminded and receptive to possibilities beyond our own narrow frame of reference.

Just a side note.

I live in Lakewood. If you are going to build a raise bed I would also build a composter. I built a 3 bin composter last year and love it. That way you can be constantly adding the compost you make and in a short while build up some decent depth.

A faily cheap manure that all the garden centers sell here is steel manure. They usually sell for a buck per bag.

As far as tilling or no tilling that's like asking if you should add sand to clay soil...a loaded question. I have always tilled with no problems but the lasania approach does sound very interesting, but I doubt that it would be quick enough for a spring planting. Personally I would till it and plant but I'm sure some would object.

~Yago

Heh, unless you have the dreaded bind weed mixed into you lawn. Then, for the love of Sam Hill, do not till it without killing it first.

Curse you bind weed!!!

is this working right?