How would you clean the bottom of the pond without the bottom drain? We have an external Sequence pump that has been running 24/7 for four years with zero problems.

Bottom drains almost completly emininate the chore of cleaning out the bottom of the pond. You'll still have to scoop out leaves, but all the uneaten food and fish poop will flow directly to the filter. You'll need a pre-filter...a mechanical filter....before the pump. You will connect the bottom drain to the mechanical filter by way of a 3" or 4" pipe (depending on the flow you will want) and let the water gravity feed a filter that has it;s water level the same as the water level in the pond. For pre-filtering media, you can use filter mats (although they are a pain to clean) or filter brushes (much easier to rinse clean). Once the water passes through this chamber, it can either gravity feed the bio filter (your skippy) or you can pump the water to the skippy and let it gravity flow back to the pond (like a waterfall). Or, you can use a settling tank before the pump and let the bottom drain flow to the settling tank. But usually a settling tank has to be pretty large for stuff to have a chance to settle out.

How big is the pond? You'll want to make sure you turn the water over once an hour. You'll need to size the pump to do that, and then size the bottom drain plumbing to match the pump.

If you don't go with a bottom drain, you do need an alternative method of cleaning the bottom. Where I live, very few people use a bottom drain. I have a Pondovac 3 that I use to vacuum out the bottom of the pond on a regular basis. I do see the convenience of a bottom drain, though, and if I ever enlarge my pond I will be giving it some consideration.

Pond Vacs work well and are a great option for people who do not have the luxury of adding a drain to new constrution. They are fairly expensive though and vacuuming the pond involves some time and labor. My pond is 9000 gallons and except for falling leaves (most of which are trapped by the skimmer), I never ever have to spend one minute cleaning the bottom of my pond. Filter cleaing takes me maybe 10 minutes per week during the time of year when I am feeding the most (40 pounds of food in 5 weeks). Bottom drains make pond maintenance a breeze and create a much heathlier environment for the fish.

My pond will be about 800-1000 gallons.
Wouldn't the pump at the bottom suck all the gunk out? the laguna max flo is solids handling so i figured it would suck all the gunk to the filter.
And by the way, i emailed the Skippy site once and the said gunk on the bottom was natural but i dont really think i would like gunk on the bottom.
Also, has anyone used a Danner Pondmaster Pump before? The skippys recommeds it but it doesnt seem to be desined to power filters.
Thanks again! hope to get responses soon

A pump on the bottom will only suck out stuff that is sitting right next to it....it will not keep the whole bottom clean. A bottom drain has a dome shaped cover on it that draws the waste from the bottom of the pond in about a 10' to 12' radius. For the size of your pond, you could use a 3" bottom drain instead of a 4". A 3" gravity fed line can flow around 1800 gph. Let it gravity flow to a settling tank or a pre-filter of some sort and then have a pump pushing the water to the skippy for biofiltration. Skippy filters are actually pretty good...with some modifications. First...skippy says NEVER clean your filter. That is pure crap (pun intended). All that sludge sitting in the bottom of a dirty skippy is loaded with harmful bacteria and parasites. A skippy needs to have a clean-out drain installed on the bottom and should be flushed at least monthly. The dirt that skippy says is normal in the bottom of the pond....well, that is rotting fish poop and food. It should never be allowed to collect and build up for the same reason a skippy needs to be kept clean....it is a breeding ground for bacteria and parasites.

Danner pondmaster pumps are wonderful. I have been using several for quite a few years now. They are energy efficient and not terribly exensive.

You could easily build a filter for your pond. The 55 gallon pre-filter barrel needs to be located in such a way that the waterlevel in the barrel is the same as the water level in the pond so you can gravity flow to it. Get a 5 gallon bucket and drill a bunch of 3/8" holes in it. Suspend it in the center of the barrel. The inside of that bucket is where your pump will go. Now surround the bucket with filter brushes. As the water flows in to the barrel from the bottom drain, the filter brushes will capture all the waste and hold it. the water will pass through the brushes and into the bucket. The pump inside the bucket sends the water to the skippy filter where it gets bio-filtration, then dumps cleaned water into the pond. To clean the pre-filter, simply unplug the pump, close the valve to no water can get in from the pond and hose off the brushes. Drain the dirty water (or collect it to water garden plants) and you're done! Easy, inexpensive and works great.

hmm.. i see but would putting a done shaped dish over the pump increase the area of its suction like a bottom drain if u put like a half inch space between the dish and the pond floor with the pump under? and if the is the pre filter barrel has to be at the water level like almost all of it underground then how would you drain it?

If you haven't bought a pump yet, get an external pump rather than a submersible pump.

yes you could put a dome over the pump and force it to draw more from the bottom, but there are 2 problems with that. First, you want to filter out as much fish poop and uneaten food before the pump grinds it up into a fine slurry. Once that stuff goes through the pump, it will be much harder for the filter to remove it. Secondly....the pump can only handle small solids...the larger ones will stick all over the outside of the pump's housing and will eventually block the flow.

I have been ponding over 3 years and a have had a home aquarium for 25 years. I have never had a bottom drain and keep gold fish and koi in the 850 gall pond and in the 75 gallon aquarium. You can succeed in ponding without a bottom drain. Granted my pond is fairly small and I vacuum the bottom just twice a year, once in mid summer and then again in late fall. I understand every pond is different but it works for me. I am careful not to overfeed, have a skippy filter, run a 1200GPH pump, lots of plants and too many fish, and clean debris off the top whenever I see it. I am perfectly happy without a bottom drain. Good luck.

Well, if no bottom drain works for you, that's good. But my pond is 9000 gallons, heavly stocked, I go through 40 pounds of food in 5 weeks, and I NEVER have to vacuum. My lily pond is only 3000 gallons, lots of plant debris, lots of fish, and I never have to vacuum that one either. It is also a proven scientific fact that the debris sitting in the bottom of the pond rotting provides breeding grounds for harmful bacteria and many types of parasites. It just makes good sense to me that a healthier environment for fish mean keeping the pond bottom free of all debris, all the time. Once every 6 months means the fish are bathing in their own rotted feces for 6 months at a time. Yuck.

Bottom drains are essential in large ponds. ccoombs is right on, I don't have much to add to his commentary except bottom drains aid in keeping the pond the way you dream it should be.

In our opinion it is the single most important thing you can do for the health of your new pond, everything else you can improve upon later. I've never heard a ponder with a bottom drain say that they were sorry they have a bottom drain, but have heard from many that say they wish they had put a bottom drain in when they built their pond.
infornokoi, go to our website and read 'pond plans and diagrams'

Joann

Here is a link that might be useful: our pond website

hey curb1 r external pumps loud cuz i dont want the pump noise disturbing the peace in my pond.
i also wanted to ask how would you clean the vortex if you had it underground or most of it anyways?
Would it be better to buy like a 3" bottom drain? or make my own from instructions from this site?
http://www.geocities.com/ghawkins_ca/bottomdrains.html

infenokoi,
Do not rule out external pumps yet.
The noise level depends upon the brand of pump. My external WLim is much quieter than my Tsurumi sub that is in my skimmer.

We have a 3" Tetra bottom drain. Simple installation.

Our pump cannot be heard at all. It is inside
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This shows pump, filter and UV light
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What external pumps do u guys recommed?