I agree. I've only seen one or two Tiki Torch plants that look anywhere close to the photos on their site. Mine had very small blooms. The photo on their site makes it look like huge blooms and all are uniform in size. The first year I had 4 plants and only 1 came back after winter. This year I bought a larger plant locally. I'm hoping it will return this Spring but I'm not getting my hopes up.

Mac 'n Cheese was a pitiful performer here. It never grew or bloomed. It stayed about 5-6 inches tall all Summer and it was so weak. Terrible.

Pink Poodle is obviously not reproducing correctly when they propagate it. Several of mine looked like Double Decker instead. Only 1 out of 4 plants looked like the correct bloom form. The basal branching is very poor on this plant too so it has very few blooms.

I think the problem is they are rushing their plants to be released and aren't testing them enough.

I have had very good luck with the Echinacea plants from Plants Nouveau, especially Pink Double Delight and Coconut Lime. You can't go wrong with those two!

It really isn't fair to diss EVERY plant from Terra Nova when your poor experiences have been with a few...

Their Huecheras, Tiarellas and Huecherellas are outstanding.

I hate the trashing of nurseries here on Gardenweb. Save that for The Garden Watchdog site.

This is not "trashing". This is me warning people about the risks of buying from Terra Nova.

I call it like I see it. You seem to be basing the entire reputation of a grower on 2 cultivars of Echinacea when they offer many other plants that do just fine. Everyone knows that all the red and orange Echinacea hybrids from ALL the other breeders have been troublesome as well.

Never got one bloom from either my Tiki Torch nor my Mac and Cheese. I am still hoping that this year will bring some blooming. Pitiful plants, but there's always hope.

I love cool, new plants, therefore I'm a big fan of Terra Nova.

Have they released some duds over the years? Sure. But most people would when you operate on the scale they do.

I too think it's ridiculous to "warn" people of an entire nursery and their products based on some peoples' experiences with a couple varieties.

FWIW, as I've posted previously in this forum, E. 'Tiki Torch' was easy to grow and performed admirably in my garden.

There is a "risk" buying from any source......plants are living organisms afterall and they will not always behave in an absolutely predictable fashion. Lots of variables involved that the breeder/hybridizer has no control over once it hits the consumer gardener's hands.

Terra Nova is on the cutting edge of new perennial plant introductions in this country. I can't think of any other single breeder/hybridizer that puts forth a similar effort or such an extensive array of new plants each season. Just given the shear volume of introductions they generate each season should allow for a few duds. If indeed duds they are.....like CPG, I've not had any difficulties with any of the echinacea hybrids TN has produced. And I am pretty darn impressed with 'Tomato Soup', which easily doubled in size in a single season, produced excellent colored flowers over a long period and even held most of its foliage through the winter. It is already starting to push new growth.

If one has concerns, just don't purchase. Purchasing coops like the one introduced in another thread are always a risk. Since this is a wholesale only nursery, what you are buying will be very tiny starts or plugs. Failure rates with these will always be higher than with well-developed, more mature plants. And it is your individual option to purchase these larger plants from your local retailer or not -- no one is twisting anyone's arm.

Warning off or trashing a grower with the history and reuptation of Terra Nova (despite what a few individuals think) is not only unfair but inappropriate. There is a freedom of choice involved here and how a couple of folks who have had less than optimum results with a single species of sometimes difficult to grow plants can think that their extremely limited experience should somehow determine who buys what from where is very presumptuous and really out of place.

A great many plants in my garden are Terra Nova introductions and I wouldn't be without them. As long as there are those who trash-talk TN there will be others - maybe a lot less vocal - who will continue to applaud TN's efforts and continue to support them.

I agree with gardengal48. Terra Nova has introduced lots of great plants and it is unfair to cast a shadow on their entire reputation based on such a minimal experience.

Maybe those plants were duds. Maybe it was the gardener or growing conditions. But Terra Nova is reputable and they've done great things. And a lot of people's jobs are at stake when we are too quick to condemn an entire company on one or two bad experiences. It would be more helpful to report unsuccessful plants. If those numbers mount up, that's the time to start looking at the company as a whole.

"Tomato Soup" was ok in my garden too. It didn't have big blooms in mass like their website photos show, but they were average. I liked it ok. The real test is this Spring when it returns after winter.

I do have to say that their Echinacea plants have not been good performers overall for me. I use the example of Plants Nouveau because their plants are tested in many zones before being sold. I don't know what kind of trial process Terra Nova uses, but I can see that their plants don't survive winter as good as Coconut Lime, Pink Double Delight and others I have grown.

I think getting into a co-op to purchase these plants is a smart move. I got my new ones for less than 5 dollars a plant. This way I don't have to worry about losing 10-20 dollars per plug. I still like to experiment with growing the new Echinaceas, some from Terra Nova as well. I just won't pay a premium for them anymore. I grew my plugs indoors this winter so they will be extra large next Spring before planting them out. Maybe this would be a good thing to try if you are having bad luck with their plants. Give them a little extra attention and care.

Just a gentle reminder when comparing Echinacea -- they are not all hybrids -- those that are will no doubt be somewhat different (than E. purpurea and selections thereof) in regards to hardiness and adaptability to soil, etc.

I agree with coolplantsguy. If TN had not sent plants ordered, sent the wrong plants and not made good on them, or plants in poor health, then I could see the warning. I think most have read how some of the echinaceas have been poor performers.
Tammy

if you NEED state of the art technology .. plant wise ....

then YOU accept the risk of said state of the art ....

if you want true proven performers.. then you dont buy the newest.. latest creation ... you buy the plants that have been around for decades ....

for you to try the newest.. unproven plant ... and then complain.. is a bit ingenuous ...

it much akin to the argument that you were unaware of your zone.. and then to blame the seller on selling you something that is not proper for your zone ...

caveat emptor ...

you should have known you were taking risk .. and now you are blaming others for said risk ....

ken

Nicely said, Ken :-))

Ok, first of all, I didn't take any risk. I read what some people said about these plants and I took pity on them. I don't want anyone to have to go through what echinaceamaniac (or anyone else) went through again.

And Ken, I'm sorry, but what you're saying just isn't right. You continue to defend Terranova instead of realizing that they made a mistake, and yet they have never attempted to make amends for it. What's wrong is putting a plant out on the market that hasn't been thoroughly tested. What Terranova is doing with these plants is corruption in it's purest form. They sell the plants before they can be tested thoroughly just to put a few extra bucks in their pockets, and that is wrong.

So wait a second. You didn't even buy any plants from Terranova yourself? You are just basing this off of other peoples posts? This is wildly inappropriate and I really think you should quit while you are ahead.

Everyone knows that Mac 'n Cheese is a dud. Why is it still available? Shouldn't they have enough feedback to know that something is wrong with that plant?

Also...Pink Poodle isn't reproducing true to the original plant. If only about 25% have the correct kind of blooms, why is that plant still available? Shouldn't Terra Nova know about this? I know I called them and told them. They did absolutely nothing. They offered me no refund for my 3 bad plants at all. Other friends of mine had Pink Poodle plants with the Double Decker type blooms as well. It's a common problem with this cultivar.

There are real problems with their plants and they aren't addressing them. I think it's good to let others know about the problems, especially when a company doesn't do the right thing themselves.

I am actually testing some plants in my garden for TN. I am testing plants for zone overwintering and deer and rabbit resistance - some are new introductions that will be released this year. I can't say more at this time, but I did already publish a story about a pulmonaria that I'm testing.

My garden is a real-life test, not a greenhouse, horticultural testing lab nor a university field trial. In other words, not scientific - just plant the plugs (in the fall) according to directions and see what happens.

I'm making no heroic measures to get these plants through the winter. In fact, I suggested that they shouldn't send me some of these plants for fall planting - but, they want to know if they survive. I consider several of these to be very tender and they've been frozen, snowed on, rained on... a true test.

Quoting echinaceamaniac: "There are real problems with their plants and they aren't addressing them. I think it's good to let others know about the problems, especially when a company doesn't do the right thing themselves."

If you people (not you echinaceamaniac) had any moral sense of right and wrong you would realize that what Terra Nova is doing is wrong, and you should stop supporting them. Until we receive an apology for their bogus plants and an apology for their indifference toward the situation in general, I will continue to warn people and voice my opinion on them (which, as of right now, is quite poor).

Yes well since you have admitted you aren't even growing said plants I don't expect you will be getting an apology from anyone anytime soon.

As for everyone else if you have to be first on the block to be growing that new cultivar understand that you may get burned. Don't take risks if you can't afford to. echinaceamaniac has been complaining about the new Echinacea hybrids and cultivars for years now. You can say you are trying to "prevent people from going through the same thing she went through" but something tells me that years from now she will still be first in line for new cultivars and still be complaining when they don't meet her standards.

It's not that they don't meet my standards. In the case of Echinacea "Pink Poodle" the plant isn't the correct plant. They are sending out plants that have the wrong bloom altogether. Just ask any professional grower who ordered these. I have seen someone with over 200 and they only had a few that looked like the photos.

Mac 'n Cheese is just a weak plant. Just look at all the comments on this site. Even in the greenhouses they had Tomato Soup and Mac 'n Cheese together. It was obvious the Mac 'n Cheese didn't grow properly. This was bad because those two plants were advertised together like a combo planting. It was supposed to be a good combination of colors. Instead, the Tomato Soup grew and the other plants didn't. You can't tell me that Terra Nova trialed these plants and made sure nothing was wrong with them. I know they didn't.

My complaint isn't that their plants are bad. My complaint is they know they are bad and still are selling them. They also don't refund your money for these plants.

I haven't had any problems with the wholesale nursery in question (maybe because I've been slow to embrace new Echinacea hybrids). I agree that investing in Super New Introductions can be risky and it's sensible to wait a couple of years and see what gardeners around the country are saying about their experiences.

That said, it's a poor excuse for a hybridizer to say (or to have said on their behalf) that "most of our introductions do fine". It's your job to make sure that all of your releases are adequately field-tested so that people don't get stuck with "duds". In the case of one other well-known hybridizer who released a much-ballyhooed perennial some years back (which turned out to be far less hardy than advertized), I steer away from any new releases from that source until they've been thoroughly vetted by other gardeners.

Sometimes it seems like there's a bit too much emphasis on promoting (and beating your competitors to) the Next Great Thing, as opposed to qualities that translate to reliable performance over a wide range of garden conditions.

Uh, clematis, I NEVER admitted that I'm not growing their plants. I actually DO own some of their plants, and they are are just as echinaceamaniac describes them. I will continue to voice my opinion on gardenweb, as long as people like you continue to defend Terranova.

This is getting ridiculous and I'm beginning to find it offensive as well. Terra Nova has introduced more than 600 new plants to the US market over the better part of the last 2 decades and you are questioning and defaming their excellent reputation based on a few experiences with a few select plants......all associated with a single genus?? Let's get real. Try growing all 600 first - or even 300, 100 or 50 but more than just one or two species - and if you have the same experience, then but only then do you have a point and valid grounds for complaint.

Get a life, people, and find something really important to focus your attention on. All this unnecessary hoo-ha from a few people who have not had a good experience with a couple of select plant types -- AND despite a good number of others who have stated they did NOT experience the same issues -- is totally misplaced and over the top.

The solution to the entire issue is very simple. If you don't like Terra Nova, just don't buy from them. Period. Then you won't have problems or any issues to complain about. But remember that your experience and opinions may not necessarily be shared by everyone else. I have had NO issues with Terra Nova plants, including many of the echinaceas you seem to be so upset about, so I will continue to purchase from and support that nursery with great enthusiasm.

Breeding and hybridizing new plants is a very complicated and time consuming process. And there is a strong demand from the gardening public to continue to produce new and unique varieties. Plants are not inanimate objects and how they grow and perform depends on all sorts of variables that the breeder cannot necessarily predict. And many hybrids do tend to be unstable. Terra Nova is not the only breeder/hybridizer to encounter this issue and yet one doesn't see the same hue and cry about other nurseries that have experienced similar issues. Why single them out? I can list similar issues with any number of other growers. Do I trash them to rest of the gardening public? No. I just choose not to grow plants that I know will not perform up to my expectations. I certainly don't hold the breeder at fault because a) I might not be able to produce the right location or the right conditions for the optimum performance of the plant or b) my gardening skill with that plant may not be up to snuff. Someone, probably many someones, somewhere is growing it without issue, otherwise the plant would no longer be offered for sale.

I really dislike someone attempting to force their opinions on the rest of the gardening public. And perennialfan, that's exactly what you are attempting to do with your post. You are entitled to feel any way you want about any plant or vendor but don't expect your endorsement (or rather, lack of one) to be accepted willingly or gratefully by those who have NOT shared your unfortunate experience. Trashing the reputation of a very well known nursery because of a rather isolated and unique situation given the vast number of great plants they have introduced is out of line.

It's amazing that after so many years of gardening I still have to remind myself that if I wish for a particular colour in a flower or leaf, or a scent, or a shape of bloom, then I should show up at the nursery when the plant is actually blooming...

Can't do that with mail orders so I opt to live with what I get and move on with life and possibly with the mail order company. Actually, I've opted to move on from several mail order companies and have my choice few which I still deal with.

Maybe others should do the same. It's OK to voice your opinion Perennialfan, but you have to realize that there are two sides to every coin. It's obvious that some folks here have had good experiences with TN and you should respect that.

Echinaceamaniac - You write...
"My complaint isn't that their plants are bad. My complaint is they know they are bad and still are selling them."
So are the plants 'bad' or not? Seems there's a contradiction there. And are the plants bad in your point of view simply because you are not getting the bloom in the picture or that your plant did not survive the winter?

Let's see now... Raise your hand whoever has ordered from mail orders and received flowers of a different colour or WOW factor than in the photo presented... Oh, and could those of you who have never had a plant die on you in the winter please raise your other hand...

We take our chances and if I ever become so tied-up about gardening as some of the above, then it's time to cull the whole thing and pave it.

check this out:

Here is a link that might be useful: TN Co-op post in this forum

I've been gardening for awhile and I used to want/need/obsess over the newest and exciting plant introductions. Eventually (as reality sets in) you learn to be patient and wait to see how certain new introductions do -- or wait til the adrenaline rush subsides.

The rush-to-market seems to be part of the industry and I have learned to adapt or choose to take a risk. Certain mail order catalogs (no names) seem to touch up their photographs. We learn to take it with a grain of salt.

As far as Terra Nova, I have seen more than 1 interview conducted with Dan from TerraNova and I have been totally impressed with everything about this company and all my Terra Nova plants.

It is a business and of course they want to sell their wares. But they are smart enough to know that disappointing their customers is not going to help their bottom line in the long run.

the post about the tn co op was mine. i'm in no way affiliated with terra nova or any other nursery. i've heard all the complaints about these new echinacea, but i've also heard all of the compliments about the business in general. i am one of the people that like to have the newest and best, hence the lack of money in my savings account, but i understand the risks. that's the main reason i tried to get the co op started so that others could try them for themselves without having to pay the 19.95 that resale nurseries and mail order businesses charge. the plugs/liners aren't actually that small. the individual plugs are 2.5 x 1.5inches. if you read in a mail order nursery, most of the perennials come in a 2.5 inch pot. i understand that one would be upset if they get the wrong plant, that happens in a nursery of that size, just ask tony avent from plants delight. i also understand that if one were to contact dan heims, he would most likely rectify the situation. if you're going to slander terra nova for offering 'unacceptable' echinaceas, then maybe you should also mention every single one of their resalers for perpetuating these terrible plants. a simple warning on how a particular plant does for you in your zone and microclimate would have sufficed.

cody_mi, I was not exactly referring to your posts but to the second followup to yours. The person that is requesting to join the co-op and order heucheras and echinaceas just two weeks later slams the same company. I love co-ops, love saving money. I personally have no problem with TN.

The only real way to trial these plants in every condition in different parts of the country is to release the plant. Buying a new introduction is always a risk no matter what company you buy from. I love to buy new roses, but I never know what to expect, what can be good in Florida might be lousy here, the rose might have a great bloom and scent but doesn't repeat, and you won't know that for sure for about three years or so. Of course, some hybridizers are better than others, but no one bothers to test in Wisconsin (or almost no one). So I buy only a few new introductions and if they don't do well (Rhapsody in Blue) then I shrug my shoulders and replace it. Sometimes I get a good one and tell everyone else to go get it (Over the Moon did very well its first year).

Yes, I've seen the Pink Poodle plants and I wouldn't buy one for myself unless I saw the fully double blooms on the plant I was going to buy. There are definite problems there and I doubt the plant will be in production very long. The reputation of TN will suffer because of this and they might wait and trial more before going to mass retail on PPs replacement, but in the meantime they did get out the first echinacea of its kind and at least some of the plants are as advertised.

Now if you don't like those odds, then don't buy a plant in its first year or even first two or three years. Buy something that has been around a while, that a gardener local to you says does well for them, and you'll avoid these problems. You'll be like me who knows that Pink Poodle probably isn't worth buying and that Mac n Cheese is iffy. That's why I'm getting After Midnight next year.

Plant Haven trials their plants in several different zones. I know Plants Nouveau does too. Maybe TN just skips this step to be first to release the plants. It's going to start hurting their reputation if they keep having Pink Poodle type problems.

"The only real way to trial these plants in every condition in different parts of the country is to release the plant."

It's true that you can't on a practical basis plan for every possible microclimatic variation or trial a plant in all 50 states. But if (as a general example) you're releasing a plant described as hardy from zone 4 through zone 9, you need to have tested its performance and know that it has withstood -30F and done well, and at the other extreme, performed creditably in mild as well as hot (dry or humid) conditions in zone 9 climates.

The more experience you have, the less you are inclined to trust descriptions of new plant releases and to be slow to jump on bandwagons. Those who get victimized are often gardeners who must have the latest and greatest offerings, or new gardeners with less well-developed skepticism. "Buyer beware" is still inadequate to cover these situations. If you follow good cultural practices and a plant does not conform to advertised description (and if others report similar problems), you should get a refund or credit from the seller.

Terra Nova is a wholesale nursery. Echinaceamaniac and perennial fan, did you buy the plants in question directly from them?

wow.... I really can't see where this attack is coming from!

Love the terra nova plants and I love them because they're new and different. Stick with the tried and true if you need a safety zone. The best of these new introductions will rise to the top and they'll be available at every box store around... right next to the stella d'oros.

This is like calling Blooms of Bressingham a crappy outfit (which they most definately are not) because they introduced Limerock Beauty as a hardy coreopsis.....

People want to try the new echinaceas etc... I can make my own decision on if I want to try them.... as a matter of fact I may need to add a mac n cheese to my garden next year! lol

Tammy, there's a reason why I'm joining this swap in spring, and frankly it's not your concern.

Oh, and Ninamarie, I did not buy the plants DIRECTLY from them, but they are plants that were bred by Terra Nova.

Right perennialfan, its not my business, just like when I asked a question about plants in the butterfly garden forum wasnt your business, yet you attacked me for it.
The point I was making above, if you have a valid reason to attack a business in a public forum,warning people away from ordering from them,possibly affecting their livlihood, then why in another post around the same time are you requesting to join a co-op to order the exact plants you are complaining about from Terra Nova? Not my business, and doesnt require an answer, but something to think about..
Tammy

"Posted by perennialfan273 zone 5 (My Page) on Sun, Jan 31, 10 at 15:56
Will you guys be getting any heucheras or echinaceas. Those would really be the only things I'm interested in from Terra Nova right now."

Back to the topic at hand...

I think the plants are worth it if you can get them for less than 5 dollars a piece. I got them in a co-op this year for 4 dollars so that way I'm not losing over 10 dollars per dud. LOL.

Seriously. I love some of Terra Nova's plants. I just think they have been rushing the plants to be sold before they trial them properly...Maybe trial the new plants for one to two years in several zones and then release them. That's the way most other companies do it. Maybe releasing so many plants per year isn't exactly a good thing if you are releasing plants that don't grow!

It's simply a different business model -- Terra Nova is on the "cutting edge", whereas Plant Noveau is taking a more cautious approach ("introducing" Echinacea 'Pink Double Delight' in 2010).

Neither is right or wrong. If you don't like the cutting edge (yes, there are risks involved), then you'll have to purchase/grow other plants.

In the meantime, I've got a whole whack of brand new plants from Terra Nova that I'm growing and trialing, and can't wait to see in my garden this year!

Here's to dirt under your nails (and less bitterness). ;)

Posts like this make me glad I gave up new coneflowers a LONG time ago, lol!

And here I was thinking all gardeners were some of the happiest hobbyists on earth, LOL!
CMK

Tammy, I believe the term you are looking for is 'hypocritical' :-)

Is any one ready to put this thread to bed? If your answer is yes, then restrain the impulse to shoot off an answer to whatever remark provoked you. With no more posts, the thread drops down....down....down and into oblivion.

I offer this thought because the "discussion" has devolved to a level of nasty that can really leave a bad taste in one's mouth. I've been around long enough to witness hurt feelings and anger that lead to people dropping out of gardenweb. That's a shame. So take a deep breath, take a walk, don't read GW for several days, and ask yourself "Is this question really worth my time and energy?"
Yours,
Idabean