Today, i began tearing out my pond to dig out a larger area for a koi pond. I was moving large basketball sized rocks off of the back of the waterfall. Picking up this boulder that was well sunk in the gound and lo under the boulder, how it got there is anyones guess, there is the largest bull frog (8") the prettest green and red, staring up at me. He leaps up, must of been 4 ft and clears the hill in front of him and lands in the pond peeing all the way. Looked like he was dumping his fuel.

Sorry. I didnt mean to post my frog story here on your thread Mark

LOL, you gave me a start there, jmorris.
The roof water...there have been discussions about this from time to time and there are good reasons to avoid it when you are talking about a pond that has fish. The biggest reason is that rain water can cause a big change in PH in a short time and that is not something that fish can tolerate. I think the frogs would have a similar response. Since there are no fish perhaps you could try it and see how quickly the levels change. Sandy

I recently took a class on rainwater harvesting that addressed catching and using rainwater for household use, so I think it should be perfect for a pond.

Here is a link that might be useful: Rainwater Harvesting from TAMU

PKponder, Since I am into water salvage myself, I am glad to hear about the existance of the class. I recently built a small greenroof to demonstrate effects of water management and as a Master Gardener, I encourage the public to understand the proper use of irrigation to prevent mineral salt accumulations that pollute soils. Effective use of rainwater is very important especially where you live. If you read my post again you will see I did not say not to use the rainwater, I said rainwater can change the PH of the pond. Even if you have that covered, it is only one of the reasons you should use caution and common sense. A roof can acquire a lot of dirt and debris between rainfalls. Chemical pollution winds up on the roof in large quantity. The roofing materials themselves can leach oils that are polluting. There are other cautions as well but at the moment I don't remember them. None of these things do the pond water much good. If you have a sedimentation tank that can get rid of a lot of the dirt and a way to skim the oils off, you still have to deal with the chemicals and the reduced oxygen levels. So, without a lot of treatment I would have to say no to the use of roof water run off. Sandy

Hi Sandy and my apologies to Mark for the hijack,
I didn't even address your post, so I am unsure why you feel I was saying that you were wrong. The article I cited actually deals with the initial runoff being diverted elsewhere, so as not to introduce those pollutants into the holding tank (pond in Mark's case). I too am a master gardener, that is how I had access to the class. There are as many opinions as posters on this board, but maybe you could give the complete article a read, it could change your opinion ;-)

Pam

Hey there, Pam. That is an excellent resource. I think the section on potable and non-potable use says what I am getting at. In quotes:

"Although roof-based systems generally produce water with lower levels of chemical and biological
contaminants, the water produced by both systems is subject to contamination and must be properly
treated before it can be used. The level of treatment you need to provide depends, to a great extent,
on whether you will be using the water for potable purposes (such as drinking, food preparation,
bathing, and dish- or hand-washing) or for nonpotable purposes (such as toilet flushing, clothes
washing, and watering). Obviously, rainwater that is intended for potable purposes must receive a
higher level of treatment than rainwater that is intended for irrigation purposes."

That is from one of the sources used by your TAMU site, Harvesting,storing and treating rainwater for domestic use.

If Mark chooses to use the rainwater from the roof without diverting it to a separate sedimentation tank along with additional treatments his pond plants may die and the frogs he mentions will die or go away. The water, if not used quickly will become stagnant, breed mosquitos and stink.

I'm always glad to meet a fellow MG. Sandy

Excuse me for asking a different (but related) question. I have been reading this thread while researching an idea I have for my own pond. I have a very small lot that my house was build on. Directly across the street is a public 5 acre pond that spills into a 3 acre wetland. It was designed by the core of engineers. anyways, we have a TON of frogs in our yard all year long.

We also sit on a very narrow lot and have a sump pump that runs quite frequently due to the narrow lot + clay soil + frequent rains. I had a thought the other day that maybe I would build a small pond and construct a small artificial waterfall around the pipe that discharges the water my sump pump produces. will this present the same problem? I didnt think it would be a problem since the rain water has passed through the grass, dirt, and rock and then through the pump and back outside.
Just starting researching my project so any insight would be helpful.

A friend of mine has run her sump pump into a small. shallow clay bottomed pond for years with no problems and numerous frogs, toads and tadpoles - HOWEVER given that the pond is clay with lots of native plants there could be some serious biological filtering going on that's eliminating any nasties. She doesn't have fish in it as it's shallow (maybe a foot) deep and she allows the water level to fluctuate with the seasons.

I agree that there could be chemical nasties coming off of the roof and wonder if there's anyway to get a sample of roof rainwater tested.

PH does change quickly with rainwater - but alot of that will be dependent on how big your pond is - what percentage will the rainwater make up - which has got to be hard to estimate.

What I'm wondering is is there a way to do it like mom nature - could you build some sort of bog for the water to filter through before it goes in your pond. That could be a win-win if you could figure out how. The bog could filter the water and slow down it's arrival in the pond helping prevent a rapid pH swing.

Where are our experts on bog or raingardens???

The water that is pumped out by a sump pump, except in fooding conditions has most likely been filtered by the soil surrounding the structure. Slow collection is going to be the most filtered but it s/could be tested since the soil itself could be contaminated by pesticides, herbicides or naturally occuring polultants. There are usually test facilities listed in the yellow pages but if you can't locate it there try local well drilling companies or the DNR for a testing company. They will tell you how to get the sample.
Rain gardens are coming into their own. For those who don't know what they are, they are swales or dips in the landscape often planted with native plants that are designed to slow and redirect runoff to avoid loss of the rainwater or to prevent erosion. Our Master Gardener gardens will likely have one next year for demonstration. I had hoped to be in that group but it looks like I will be assigned to design a Living Wall. I really like these kinds of projects. The greenroof I designed is well established and now attracts lots of attention on the garden walks.
I believe there is a forum here on Bog gardening. I would go find a link but it seems that lately when I do that my unsubmitted message goes bye-bye. There are several ardent bog gardeners who went to another location but there are some remaining who post there. Several regulars on the Ponds and Aquatic Plants forum use bogs or vegetative filtration. One caviat I remember from that forum is that fresh roof runoff is not good for certain bog plants but please do not expect any advice from me on this subject. The anesthesia I was given for back surgery seems to have eliminated a few areas of interest and I need to start that research again. It is very annoying to be able to visualize something but be unable to express it. Sandy

Well dirty fingers. I hate to say this but I am not an expert biologist/botanist/whateverist. I do however like to build ponds and have been doing so for most of my life. Sometimes for business and sometimes for fun. I am sure that what I am about to say will cause buzz amongst the masters in this post but here I go anyways. Which is worse ... a muddy hole in the ground or your pond as a natural biofilter. One of the first ponds I ever built was a gutter collector for a customer who wanted the water naturalized for her gardens and two decades later it still flourishes. Plants and fish and all. I have even seen gutter run into 500 gallon kegs full of irridescent sharks with no plants to speak of (done in england back in the forties) that thrive to this day. Is your gutter water any worse than the typical runnoff crossing your land? Unlikely. It may actually be cleaner. Is it pure pristine polar water .. no. Is it better than your public tap .. yes. Was the rain clean in the first place .. no. Does it filter right into the same land that runs off into your pond? yes. I know of dozens of ponds that do better with gutter water than no water at all. Of course if you are farming delicate fish and plant species than it is a bad idea. If you have any budget to filter it than even better. Other wise your pond is the filter. keithw is right. Sometimes a simple filter is all you need.

Silent1pa and keithw, I was born in the early 40s and I remember playing in the rain water that ran in huge quantities down the street in front of my home. It was clean and just the right temperature to cool off in the southern heat. By the late 50s we didn't let the neighborhood kids do that any more. The traffic on that street dumped enough motor oil and gunk that the runoff had an iridesent sheen on top. Leaded gas was in use then and found its way down the street to the drains and thereafter into the Ohio river. We are doing better now but I couldn't let my kids play in it in the seventies and eighties.The water that rolled off the roof would stink in a day or two if you tried to put it in a rain barrel. There are parts of the country where there are no factories pumping out pollution and no farmers putting pesticides, herbicides and fertilizers on their crops from airplanes but that isn't every where. Sleepless

Sleepy I am sorry to hear that you live in such a miserable and polluted place. In Virgina where I live, I can walk in the rain pretty confident that I am not going to become radioactive. I even walk in the gutters sometimes and haven't lost any limbs yet. And as I have stated, I have been using roof water to replenish my pond with minimal filtering for a few years and have had no issues. My fish aren't mutated. They even reproduce and create non-mutated fry.

Thank you all for your experiences and input. My gut instinct is that it will be okay. After all, what falls on the roof also falls in the pond....rain, pine needles, bird poop, etc. My main concern was the asphalt shingles and what comes off of them with the rain. I am so far in the country that direct urban pollution is not a issue. I had thought about putting in something like a dry stream bed so that things could get filtered between the gutter and pond but I really don't want something else that will need to be maintained and there really is not enough room between the house and the pond to put a bog as a filter. I think that I will put in an underground pipe from the gutters to the pond and look into placing some kind of filter right before release into the pond. I am also contemplating tripling the size of the pond next year. My wife and I have found the pond an unexpected treasure. We love sitting out by the pond after dinner or early in the morning and watching the frogs and dragon flies and everything else it brings not to mention the pondscaping that is always in progress. There really is something about the water isn't there?

Again, thank you all for your interesting comments.
Mark

"...and no farmers putting pesticides, herbicides and fertilizers on their crops from airplanes."

No wonder my limbs go randomly numb, and my fish look like...

{{gwi:231859}}

Brenda, in farm country

Hi,
I'm in theUK. I have a waterbutt which my garage roof water goes into, and I have fixes a hose pipe to the tap so I can use it when necessary to top up. I have also found that if I put some daphnia in occasionally (I buy a bag from an aquarium shop), it keeps the water clear, and provides a food source when I use the water....particularly useful when I have newt tadpoles in.
I haven't noticed any problems, but I have one pond as a fishfree wildlife pond, and the other is a wildlife pond with sticklebacks. I get frogs and newts and lots of pobnd creatures.
My tiles are fired clay tiles.
The are I'm in doesn't have an air pollution or smoke problem, so I don't think I am feeding "acid rain" into the pond.

Another thought, but going off hte subject a bit...
A friend of mine (eco wildlife type) has one pond that he runs all his "grey" water through and it acts as a biological and vegetable filter and cleans the water. And that pond has plenty of wildlife in.

"grey" water = all bath, sink and kitchen waste water including from the washing machine.

If I lived in Fort Wayne, Indiana I would be nervious about what's falling out of the sky also. Is rain water safe largly depends on the location. If you're located next to a refinery, very likly not. If your located in a cleaner ecological area, likly safe. In regards to roof run-off, I wouldn't recommend it on a brand new roof until it's had a few good storms to rinse off. Loose granuals, oils during manufacturing, etc when brand new. After a good washing the roof surface is pretty stable. Roof water run-off has been captured in cisterns for centuries.

Natural ponds consist of rain water falling on the pond and ground, running into the pond and maybe excess water running out of a stream or overflow. They can go from nearly dry to overflowing in one good storm.

My pond is set up so my gutter downspout connects to PVC pipe that runs underground into my pond. On the other end of the pond is an overflow weir to do a controled spill of surplus water. 1,500+ gallon pond plus waterfall and stream with lots of plants. I started with six water lettus and six water hyacynth late Spring and I've since tossed out three large trash bags of WL and WH just to see the water surface. Also on about the fourth hatching of comets and shubunkins plus goldfish.

While rain water may shift pH, it occures in nature normaly. They're not THAT sensative or they wouldn't have survived in nature for all these years.