A couple of things: Yes, it is a real shame that vendors around the world continued to sell this rose under both names for so many years after the supposed 'Irene Watts' (from Sangerhausen) sported back to the white 'Gruss an Aachen' in the garden at Mottisfont. That one plant (in a group of three - there is no 'bed' of 'Irene Watts' here) was subsequently labelled as "Pink Gruss an Aachen (Irene Watts)", and the two UK nurseries it was given to informed (Mottisfont does not sell its own roses). All the roses from Sangerhausen which came to Graham Thomas or Mottisfont unlabelled or mis-identified were given freely to nurseries - several remain questionable. There is no 'curator' at Mottisfont - just the Head Gardener who has been there for thirty years. Kim Rupert wrote on this Forum when the note that now appears on 'HelpMeFind' was first published that he is not 'a botanist for the Huntingdon', nor has any genetic testing/tissue culture been carried out. He, like many other good rosarians, noticed and questioned the mistake. I am sure that the rose amateurs who carry out this sort of 'research' are well-meaning, but in these days of the internet and email it is not really that hard to ask the people concerned. The information is out there. I guess meanwhile I shall have to repeat this every year when the question comes up :) Peter Beales, by the way, has repeatedly tried to find and source the 'real' Irene Watts from around the World. You would be surprised at the number of contenders that appear from all corners of the Earth! None have yet proved to be significantly different - though as all who grow her know - she assumes many shapes, shades and styles in different climates and seasons. Best wishes Jon

i found this from carnations.org.uk on the web, you may find this usefull... An adaption of an article written by the late Mr. F. R. McQuown, a past President of the BNCS by Tony Derrick, Hull and District Carnation Society. The breeding of new varieties is one of the most fascinating occupations for any gardener. The thrill of waiting to see results is, to my mind, unequalled in gardening pleasures, and even if there are far more disappointments than successes, a real success wipes out all memories of failures. Strictly speaking, any seedling of a border carnation, perpetual flowering carnation or pink could be called a new variety, but there is no point in so doing and naming it unless it is an advance on existing varieties. The art and science of breeding is a big subject, and even elementary treatment requires a book lo itself. It would not be worth writing such a book on dianthus alone, for much of it would be common to other plants. The great thing is to begin, for even a novice can have a startling success, and beat someone who has been at it for years. In this lies much of the fascination. Crossing. The technique of crossing two varieties together is easy. Shortly after the flower opens the anthers, which are little bags about 1/8" inch long on the end of stalks called filaments, burst open and discharge the pollen. Later in the life of the flower, usually seven to ten days later, the styles develop and stick up above the petals, curving at the tip. When ready to receive the pollen, the stigmatic surface, which is on the outside of the curve of the style, shows numerous minute hairs, each with a glistening drop of fluid at the tip (a magnifying glass is needed to see this). Fundamentally, crossing is transferring freshly shed pollen from one variety to the ripe stigma of another variety, allowing the seed to develop, and sowing it. The simplest way to transfer pollen is to pull off a newly burst anther with a pair of tweezers, and wipe it gently upwards along the stigmatic surface. The stigma should remain dry and protected from moisture for at least six hours. If the pollen has taken, the petals collapse in a typical way twelve to forty-eight hours after pollination. As soon as this happens, the calyx should be torn open on the underside to prevent moisture collecting, which might rot the seed pod. The petals should be pulled out as soon as they have shriveled enough to pull out easily, and the calyx should be removed entirely. The pod will soon swell up, and five to six weeks later begins to grow brown at the tip. When the brown extends about a third of the way down the pod, the pod should be gathered, placed in a paper bag and kept for a week or so in a dry place, when it should be gently broken open and the seeds extracted. When quite dry they can be stored in packets in a tin until they are sown. Any outstanding seedling is then propagated by layers or cuttings in the usual way. Precautions. There are two more questions to deal with. Must the anthers of the seed-producing flower be removed to make sure it is not fertilized by its own pollen, and must it be protected from bees or other insects? The test is to leave some flowers on the plant without pollination, and see if the petals collapse in the typical way. If they do not, the precautions are not necessary. If they do, remove the anthers before they burst from some flowers (which is called emasculation), and then wait and see what happens. If these flowers do not collapse, it is fairly certain that the collapse of the other flowers is due to their own pollen, and emasculation is needed. If the flowers which have been emasculated collapse, it is fairly certain that insects are at work, and they must be excluded by placing muslin or nylon bags over the flowers. It is almost universally agreed that border carnations and pinks very rarely, or never, set seed with their own pollen, and insects pollinate them only in some districts. Most breeders of perpetual-flowering carnations are careful to emasculate their plants, but usually do not protect them from insects, though in some districts they take steps to exclude insects from the greenhouse, either with proprietary repellents or netting over the ventilators. As the anthers of perpetual-flowering carnations are often well down among the petals, removing them involves removing the petals. British breeders normally remove all the petals, but American breeders usually leave the outer petals to act as pollination indicators by collapsing if the pollen takes. Orthodox scientific breeding is based on crossing two varieties together, and then crossing their offspring among each other, because many characters are hidden in the first generation, appearing only in the second. In America the inheritance of flower color has been investigated carefully in perpetual-flowering carnations, but it does not follow that all varieties will conform to the published results. A difficulty in using orthodox methods with carnations and pinks is that they are so sensitive to the ill-effects of inbreeding that the second generation plants usually are weakly, and since health and vigor are the most important attributes of the plants they are difficult to judge. However, if one has two different strains weakened by in breeding, crossing them together restores vigor, so this is a way out. Nevertheless, the most successful practical breeders use another method. They make a number of crosses, recording them with great care, and after a time get to know the good parents, namely those which are most likely to pass on good attributes to their offspring. They then cross the good parents together, proceeding on their acquired knowledge of what each is likely to pass on to the offspring. If they do not get what they what, they cross a seedling from one pair of good parents with a seedling of another pair of good parents, thus avoiding inbreeding. Recording Results Keeping records is easy. As each cross is made, it is given a number which is written on a tie-on label attached to the seed-bearing bloom. The number is recorded in a stud book giving full particulars of the cross. It is advisable to make reciprocal crosses in each case, that is to say, using each parent both as a pollen and a seed parent, because often the pollen takes on way better than the other. Contrary to popular belief, and in accordance with scientific theory, the inheritance of characters by the offspring does not appear to be affected by whether a particular plant is the seed or the pollen parent. Although crossing is mainly done to improve the characteristics of the flowers, it is absolutely vital that the new variety should be healthy, vigorous and easy to cultivate. This is the point on which most beginners err. it is no use having beautiful flowers if the plant is unhealthy or difficult to grow. Using poor-growing or disease susceptible plants as parents, can show its effect generations later, and may wreck years of careful work. Luck and Skill Since nobody can be quite sure what will result from a cross which has not been tried before, it is obvious that chance must play a part in getting good results. As has been said, a beginner may have a striking success at a first attempt, but naturally this is rare. More often, success comes only after much methodical and patient effort, though since chance is always present there is no guarantee that the effort will be rewarded. Some people might say that, the greater the skill of the breeder, the less chance enters into it, but I prefer to say that skill consists in getting the odds in your favor. Selection Since the mechanical details of crossing plants are simple and easily mastered, it is clear that skill must be acquired in some other direction, and that direction is selection. Selection is applied twice, namely in selecting the right parents, and later on in selecting the seedlings resulting from the cross. As has been mentioned, in the course of time a store of information is built up concerning the value of particular plants as parents, but we must make a start somewhere before we can acquire this information, and this is where selection of parents saves much random and wasted effort. As each cross can result in quite a number of seeds, there may be many seedlings, and it will be necessary to select carefully those which are worth growing on and propagating by cutting or layers as the case may be. Selection of perpetual flowering carnation seedlings should be completed before they take up valuable space in the greenhouse in winter, but border carnations and pinks can be left until the ground is wanted for other purposes, because even the poorer seedlings will still give a good display in the garden. Observation. The difference between a good plant breeder and a bad one really lies in the extent to which he develops his powers of observation. This does not come all at once, but it is my firm belief that anyone who loves flowers is willing to take a certain amount of trouble, has some common sense, and is willing to train his powers of observation, can be good plant breeder. Since it is highly unlikely that anyone without these qualities would have read as far as this, it is fairly safe to assume that the reader can be a good plant breeder if he wishes. Obviously the first thing one looks at is the flower. A valuable way to train oneself to observe flowers is to exhibit at shows in competition with other growers, but naturally nobody expects great success in competitions at first. However, it is consoling to know that much more is usually learned by failure than by success. If one cannot compete, a good deal can be learned by studying other peoples exhibits. Points to Consider. Although the flower is what catches the eye. in fact some of the other characteristics of the plant are more important. As has been said, good health and freedom from diseases and pests are of first importance, for without them the other qualities of the plant are of little use. Next I should put good strong growth and freedom of flowering, and after that excellence of flower and scent combined with a good strong stem. Ease of propagating by cuttings or layers probably comes next, and after that a number of minor but still important points. Does the flower last well when cut? Does the calyx tend to split? Does the flower fade in strong light? If a pink, must it be staked? Does the plant produce enough side shoots, or is there a tendency for it to flower itself to death? Do the flowers come all at once, or is there a steady succession? What proportion of the flowers are fully up to standard? If an outdoor plant, does the flower resist rain damage? Is the plant damaged by the usual sprays? Is the seedling belter than existing varieties? It is clear that most of these points can only be observed by careful study of the plant at various stages of its growth, and everyone should make a habit of examining his plants closely at frequent intervals, and comparing one with another. Comparison is probably the best way of developing observation. Making a Start I again strongly urge that the beginner should not delay his first attempts until he has acquired skill in observation. He should plunge right into crossing at the earliest opportunity, for not only may he strike lucky at an early attempt, but also comparing seedlings with their parents is probably the best way of acquiring knowledge of breeding. Though no substitute for practical experience, reading about the principles of genetics and the practice of plant breeding can be a great help as skill increases, particularly in avoiding wasted effort. The only danger in reading too much about genetics is that it makes plant breeding seem more difficult than it really is. Reading about practical breeding is helpful but it should not be confined to carnations and pinks, for often a difficult problem in breeding them can be solved by knowing how a similar problem has been solved in a totally different plant. Further Hints Although, as has been pointed out, it is a principle of genetics that many characteristics disappear in the first generation and reappear in the second, yet, in plants which have been extensively bred, such characteristics do not always completely disappear in the first generation, so that minute examination can sometimes reveal traces of a desired characteristic in a seedling. The seedling can then be crossed with another seedling of different parentage showing the same traces, thus bringing out the desired characteristics without inbreeding. As time goes on. the selection of parents by their visible characteristics will gradually be supplanted by selecting them by their performance as parents, and from then rapid progress should be made.

Bit late seeing your post, but yes. and you can propagate more from tip and side growth... plenty of time yet before winter.

Here is a pattern for an eyelet lace edging: Row 1: Purl Row 2: K2, ssk, k to last 4 sts, k2tog, k2 Row 3: Purl Row 4:K2, ssk, [dYO, k2tog] to last 4 sts, k2tog, k2 There is 8 play yarn. I believe it is a dk or sport weight yarn. Very thin.