Tartest plum I grow is Damson- that's why it's usually not eaten raw, but cooked and sugared. Years ago I tended some cherry-plum trees that had small tart fruit.

Pam,
Is that Cinti as in Cincinnati?Well,if Honeyberries can grow there,just about every variety is tart and also Aronia berries. Brady

Yep, Cincinnati is home.

I actually tried honeyberries a few years back but the seller delayed shipping til we had a horrendous heat wave. Those babies were toast on arrival. I had splurged by my standards ($35$ for a fruiting pair) and was so discouraged I forgot about them. I'll be on the hunt for some reasonably priced ones.

Harvestman, do you ever eat Damson from the tree? I eat rhubarb raw like celery so very tart is fine, but I guess there is a limit (haven't found it yet tho!) I recall you'd been recommending Valor a lot. I'd like something to both eat fresh and dry for later. Since Castleton is self fruitful that might work if it has tart in the flavor. I am in awe of the amount of fruit you've sampled.

I never considered Aronia. I'll have to research size as
my garden is small by most folks standards.

thanks!

Pam in cinti

" It actually has a rich sweet tart blend which I now learn is the real meaning for subacid."

Pam,

In my opinion there is a lot of confusion of the term "subacid" as it applies to fruits, even in the dictionaries. Some people think "subacid" means tart, but the very nature of the prefix "sub" means "less than". Substandard means less than standard. A sub-compact car is less than (smaller) than a compact.

From the word, we know a subacid fruit has less acid than a normal fruit. The question is how much less. In my experience, it's a lot less. I would not term subacid as "a rich sweet tart blend". Subacid fruits I've eaten have very low acid and are very sweet. If you like tart fruit, I don't think you'll like subacid varieties as a general rule.

Tart cherries are normally pretty tart, so subacid tart cherries have a nicer balance of sugar/acid. I have Jubelium, Danube, and Balaton cherries. Danube and Balaton have fruited, but not Jubelium. Some may refer to these cherries as subacid. Most of the time they are referred to as sweet tarts. I like the sweet tart cherries. They are sweeter than Montmorency, but still pretty tart. I eat them out of hand, but they are still too tart for the rest of my family to eat that way. It sounds like you would really like them.

Olpea, I agree totally with your logic. I had been avoiding fruits described as subacid for that very reason. However after finding it defined as both sweet and tart flavored I am very confused. I don't know how the seller is describing the flavor. Gotta say it is NOT easy to say things right when you can't change your words. Rereading my posting above it sounds like I only want the most sour fruit possible. I was just trying to be humorous. I like tart, and quite a bit of it, but enjoy other flavors mixed in too.

Recently a vegetarian friend of mine commented that she had the best tasting bag of Fuji she had ever bought. Went on to say that Granny Smith was the worst excuse for a flavorless apple she ever tasted. I tried one of those Fuji's and found it to be lightly flavored cardboard. So I really believe folks have a true difference in tastebuds, not just their reaction to the taste. I love Grannys, have a small tree, but since I'm a no chemical gal I understand it unlikely to ever be very productive for me.

So now guys, about the trees I'm considering. Pristine, Williams Pride, Goldrush, and maybe Enterprise or Freedom (I already have a small Liberty). Has anyone who prefers tart fruit tasted those varieties and found then to be actually tart?

BTW I researched Aronia and will pick up a couple bushes to put in. Even if I don't care for them they can be an alternative food source for the wildlife.

Thanks again everyone.

Pam in cinti

If you're looking for a tart apple, may I suggest one of the Jonathon varieties. The original is just wonderful; however, I also am a huge fan of Jonagold. If disease is a concern, then I understand Jonafree is good. Mine is only beginning its third year and has not fruited yet, so I can't comment on its flavor.

Blackberries are a tart fruit, particularly if picked slightly immature (shiny). Two of my tartest ones are Chester and Black Satin. Then there are currants, particularly the reds, which could be described as on the sour side.

Brookw you just made me very happy. Last year I put in some Black Satin blackberries that should fruit this coming season for the first time. I read a lot before taking a chance on these, very glad I prob made a good choice.

thanks for the apple suggestions also. I'll check around on the flavor for Jonafree.

Pam in cinti

Jonathon would probably qualify in the "a rich sweet tart blend" category. I had one this fall from a farmers market which hit 20 brix (a measure of sugar), which compares quite well to the 10-13 you often see from the grocery store. But, even with all that sugar, it is often considered a tart apple. Even so, I'm not growing it as it isn't particularly disease resistant.

Goldrush is a scab resistant apple which seems to have even more acid and sugar, so I heartily recommend it.

I second blackberries as well. Zone 6b should be good to grow Boysenberries, which in my limited sample so far (4 kinds of blackberry) has had the best flavor (lots of tart and sweet) by far. They are a bit more work in that you have to handle/trellis long thorny trailing canes.

Red currants are a nice little-care bush which can grow in partial shade. They are definitely tart. When I eat them, I don't taste much sweet, but still like the few that the birds leave me. When I was young, my grandmother had 4 huge bushes, which produced so many currants that the birds weren't an issue. So, I probably just need to wait a few years before there is enough for me to get a share.

Gooseberries are also pretty tart, and similarly little effort. Of the 2, I prefer the taste of the gooseberries, though they do have thorns.

I think you will really love Lochness blackberries. Of the 8 or so varieties I've grown they seem the easiest and are extremely tart. They produce a very high quality, consistant fruit that is easy to pick. When they are dead ripe and dull they start to develop some sugars but are still very very tart.

http://www.raintreenursery.com/Loch-Ness-Thornless-Blackberry-4-Inch-Pot.html

Aronia berries are very astringent until very ripe at which point they aren't very tart anymore. I don't know if there is a window during which they are tart but not astringent.

People seem to conflate tartness, astringency and bitterness which are very distinct from one another and any of which can exist with or without a bunch of sugar.

Can't you just eat any variety blackberry early? They are all tart if not allowed to ripen completely.

...but triple crown berries can be sweet even before fully ripe, much sweeter than black satin; those will make most people pucker even though they are a fine cooking/baking fruit.

Yes, Damson are pretty good off the tree if you wait them out a bit- when they are dead ripe they are sweet enough but still quite tangy-tart. Plums in general, including Valor, tend to be very sweet with tartness only found around the skin. Prune plums like Valor are pretty much a luscious sweet package once they are ripe.

Black currants are a high favorite of mine in the tart department, I like some varieties right off the plant but it is in preserves that they are unmatched. Much richer than red currants or gooseberries to my palate. However, for fresh eating, gooseberries such as Poorman, Invicta and others noted for flavor should fill the bill for tart lovers in their season nicely. For me, the better blacks are preferable even for eating raw.

I don't consider Jonagold at all a tart apple- just more complex than Golden Delicious. However, like many apples, especially yellow ones, picking a little early will make for tarter fruit. Jonagold picked a bit green for storage is almost a different fruit than one truly tree ripe.

Hi! I agree with Harvestman re: currants, I grow four different varieties, including black currants, my personal favorite. Tart? Close your eyes, wince tart! I also grow Pristine apples, which are only a bit tart if picked early. It is what I would consider IMHO a sweet, juicy apple with a 'hint' of tartness.

Have you tried Concord grapes? You might not find them in stores because they are a jelly grape. When I was to young to climb the tree I caught grapes from my older brother to bring home to mom for jelly. You would only eat them on a dare.Now 50 years later I wouldn't live anywhere without starting one. The skin is tough, they have lots of seeds, they leave your hands purple and I still enjoy the looks I see when I give one to visitors.

Hi Pam,

Of all the apple varieties you mentioned, I have William's Pride. It's an early season, very disease resistant and tasty apple variety. You can easily grow it organically.

It's more sweet than tart. To me, it's a very good blend, just what I like (not very sweet as Fuji or Gala). My teeth do not allow me to eat anything tart any more after years of abusing them with tart/sour fruits (including lemons and limes).

It is a variety worth growing.

Try a chokecherry. I don't know anyone who eats them fresh but the make great jelly.

Chokecherry can be pretty good when they are dead ripe, but they probably vary from tree to tree. Here you'd probably have to net them to get a significant harvest.

Thanks everyone

Computer's been out a few days, sorry. Anyway I'm thrilled to find so many unusual suggestions. I have more questions but have to work right now. Does astringent mean tart? This lingo is new to me.

Pam in cinti

For me, something astringent is more akin to bitterness--so much so that it causes puckering or an unpleasant feel to the mouth--even a cottony feel, like unripe persimmons.

brookw, that's what I mean by conflating the terms.

Astringent and bitter are two different things although perhaps often occurring together.

I'd describe astringent as more of a feeling than a basic taste. It gives you the dry-mouth sensation. Unripe astringent persimmons are the classic example, but anything with tannins will produce that effect to some degree.

Bitter, I'd describe as tasting poisonous. If you've tried lettuce that has bolted it is very bitter. Or grapefruit membrane. Grapefruit is also very tart which is distinct from bitterness.

Tart or sour is the taste of acidity. Vinegar, lemon juice, and most fruit that isn't ripe are usually quite tart. The thing is, they are also often astringent as well so I can see how the two things get thought of together.

Further complicating things are genetic differences in the ability to perceive flavors. For example, a substance that is very bitter to one person may be essentially tasteless to another.

Also, common usage of a number of these terms have been muddled to be used as synonyms in some circumstances.

Yes, and to be literal, astringency is not a flavor, but is a sensation. An astringent foodstuff, when chewed or drank, will actually change the surface texture of your tongue; most people sense it as dryness. Once enough saliva has built up again, your tongue returns to normal.

One curious example is quince. Cooked, sweetened sauce has no astringency, while cooked, sweetened juice is very astringent.

Pecan shell is astringent.

If you look at my response, I never stated bitterness and astringency were the same. I used the comparative "akin to," which I believe is accurate. In my experience, bitter substances seem to inhibit salivation, which leads to the astringent description. Maybe I'm wrong.

Bush cherries are tart and sweet, very easy cherry to grow. Look up Carmine Jewel and Crimson passion.