Bill m-n - when weve completely upended mother nature by planting copious amounts of wxotci plantings and taken away habitat for native wildlife and plants then you can no longer play the mother nature card. i strongly encourage everyone to take a stewardship approach to gardening. if you like norway spruce so much - why not just move to Norway? if you want to be in north america then please try to support North American ecosystems. And please stop killing just because someone ate your shrub. they’re hunghungry because you took their land and food. Sandra, You've taken a 'Shoot first and ask questions later' approach by coming onto a public forum and accusing people that you don't even know. The people here for the most part are the most conscientious people I know where nature and conservation is concerned. Why do you just lump everyone into the same bag and figure your job is done? There are people here that have dedicated their lives, working the forefront in the battle for conservation. And where did I say anything about killing? Killing is nature's way. It's how things survive. The weak and sick get thinned out leaving room in the gene pool for only the best and healthiest. It you want things to change, then get together with people that are doing the same and help them to achieve the same common ends. That's what we do.

David, at least you are staying out of that other exotic Asian dove location, "This site is for consenting adults only and should only be accessed by adults over the age of 21." Or did you? I'm not sure if there is any "native" plant invasive in my yard or garden. Amongst the dozens of weeds, they're all from the "old world" (& then there's your Russian olive). I don't have a good excuse for the pleasure I had at learning that the black locust trees are considered invasive in western Europe. The islands are terribly impacted but we're told that the development of so many useful domestic species is a result of the size and diversity of the Eurasian landmass. The Suez canal or not, Africa is a part of that same landmass. Over in the tomato forum, Carolyn linked to an article on genetic diversity. The authors' idea was that one of the reasons for problems of low resistance to pests in the older varieties was that the tomato gene pool was isolated in Europe by limited importation of tomato seed centuries ago. Utilizing new strains from South America in plant breeding wasn't undertaken until the 1950's. Genes from resistant varieties were very successfully made use of after that. Also, hybrid vigor is significant in those older crosses. Seems like it sometimes takes the people of the old world to take what is here and then give it back to us in a more appreciated form. The Russell lupin is an example but I'm not sure what the people or fauna of New Zealand think of the lupin invading acres of land there. Or, what they think about the American wild turkey or California Valley quail, for that matter. I believe you make some use of the German brown trout and where'd these Chinese ring-neck pheasants come from? The wild turkey is around here in what must be record numbers. I doubt if it was ever here prehistorically. With global warming, maybe we'll get that lesser goldfinch up here. But, will the Bohemian waxwing still come south from Canada every Winter? Oh, gosh. I'd fly away myself out of sheer nervousness but where would I go? Steve's digits

Excellent, Beng. Really quite a species. In N. Wisconsin, a characteristic site is that of a large YB seeming to stand on "stilts", it having gotten its start on a rotting stump, which later rots away completely, leaving the tree up on its roots in that fashion. Anyone confirm or deny the notion that YB can hybridize with B. papyrifera? I have on my land numerous of the latter, but down in an area full of springs, there are some birch seeming to show intermediate characteristics between the two species. And both are generally found in the area, to account for the possibility,from that standpoint at least, of this being able to happen. +oM

OK, I got you Ed. As for Abies c. it seems quite variable. Some shape up beautifully around here and retain good form, fullness, and color well into old age. Others seem to suffer from some soil-based issue, perhaps a localized pH anomaly. Another thing that I gradually realized-I've been a fan of Abies concolor for a looooong time-is a certain tendency towards double and even triple leaders at a certain point, usually around twenty feet or so up. Not sure if an insect is attacking the leader, a la white pine shoot tip moth on Norway spruce and white pine-or some other factor causing this, but it is common. When everything goes just right, lol, a great conifer. In my city, there is one which must be near 100 ft. in height. Very narrow form. About balsam fir-in my part of this state, it never occurs naturally in forests. Yet just one county north, it begins to show up and quickly becomes what some foresters consider a "weed tree". That description aside-and it really has to do with the fact balsam fir wood isn't used for much, not any aesthetic characteristics-the ones that people undoubtedly bring home from their cottages and whatnot up north do surprisingly well here, again even though nature did not place them here. I'm in Outagamie county in WI, if anyone cares to look up what I'm talking about. The next county up-Shawano (pronounced shaw-no) is full of balsam fir. Soils there are sandier than here and I suspect that characteristic has much to do with its distribution, along with pH of said soils. Balsam fir is very tolerant of downright wet soils too btw, and is among our most shade-tolerant conifers. +oM