With my luck, everything I'd save seed from would be a hybrid and wouldn't come true to the parent.

Right Tracy....

And peppers are especially promiscuous when it comes to cross pollinating - if the farmer was growing more than one type to sell as produce and not for seed production you couldn't count on the same type plant at all...

unstable....unreliable...

"unstable....unreliable..."
No more so than the seed exchange.... I never tried because I thought the fruit had to rippen on the vine to get reliable seeds, and most commercial growers pick them before they are ripe.

Originally posted by squeeziemonkey:
OK, let me ask you all this
WHY do you buy seeds in small packets for $2.00?

The average $1-2 packet contains 20+ seeds. I don't intend to put in 20 plants of any 1 variety this year. The $80 worth of seed I bought will last me several years and provide me with hundreds if not thousands of dollars worth of produce.

Originally posted by squeeziemonkey:
I paid $1.99 a pound for yellow tomatoes at my local store and now I got both dinner for tonight and dinner for the rest of the summer! Just go to the Grocery Store, buy your fave veggies, take them home, eat them, then plant the seeds!

Right NOW I am growing Orange Bell Peppers, Red Bell Peppers, Tomatoes, Garlic, Onions,

Which will produce plants and fruit that don't look much like what you bought. I suggest spending a few hours researching the terms "hybrid" and "open-pollinated" to understand why seeds from the grocery store won't come out like you expect, if they grow at all. An excellent point was raised about the fact that seeds pulled from immature fruit like peppers and tomatoes, which are all picked green/unripe, usually won't grow anything.

Originally posted by squeeziemonkey:
Potatoes

Which are often sprayed with anti-sprouting chemicals and often carry diseases which will exhibit themselves when you try to grow plants from them. One sick potato (which is perfectly harmless to eat) will kill your entire crop.

Originally posted by squeeziemonkey:
and can THINK of a dozen others that I got for FREE because I took the seeds I would normally throw out, dried them, and planted them!

If you don't mind the random results and poorer quality harvest than what you bought, be our guest. Unless you are skilled at dehybridizing, you're going to get strange results. And I'd be curious to know what kind of watermelons you intend to grow since they are now pretty much all tasteless, seedless varieties at the store.

Originally posted by squeeziemonkey:
You get "Special" kinds in packets but you can take your fave tomatoes that you bought at a farmers market and grow THAT right in your own garden!

If you have a REAL farmer's market that grows open-pollinated varieties, then yes you can save the seed.

Originally posted by squeeziemonkey:
They cant be so "Special" that we cant grow them at home or else it wouldnt be feasible to grow them commercially!

So much to learn, young grasshopper... So much to learn...

Originally posted by squeeziemonkey:
The farmers breed to get the highest yield, with the best storage, and the best flavor so now you can too!

Show me a farmer that gives a crap about flavor and I'll show you a farmer that doesn't grow more than 100 acres. Best flavor and best storage are mutually exclusive. There is no such thing as a tomato that tastes good AND stores well. I'm not really interested in trying to grow at home what most grocery stores foist upon us. Tasteless, homogenized produce is not something I'd like to reproduce at home.

I'd rather grow varieties selected for taste, not storage length. Did you know that most varieties of vegetables are bred to try to produce all their fruit in a very narrow timeframe on well-behaved, squat plants that are perfect for harvesting machines? Never mind that we don't need 50 lbs of tomatoes one week preceded and followed by nothing. Most of these varieties are very inconvenient for the home gardener. Indeterminate tomato varieties, which wreak havoc on farming equipment but are just fine in the home garden, produce fruit all season long.

Some people garden to save money. I garden because the fruit and veggies at the grocery store haven't tasted very good for quite a number of years now. But you're too young, I think, to remember when tomatoes tasted like tomatoes and strawberries tasted like strawberries.

Originally posted by squeeziemonkey:
And since we have the opportunity to coddle each plant with the best soil, the best fertilizers, exc. we can even improve on whatever you purchased!

Homegrown tomatoes DO taste better than the grocery store, but it's not a panacea. If what you described were possible, why would seed companies exist? Do you really think we're all that gullible.

Originally posted by squeeziemonkey:
I hope this helps!

Not in the slightest.

If you do decide to grow your own garden from open-pollinated varieties, and you practice seed saving, then you don't need to buy seeds. But some varieties are difficult to keep "true to form", especially curcubits (cucumber, squash, melon). You have to put a plastic bag around the flower and handle the pollination yourself and keep track of which fruit/flower is which so you can save seeds from that particular fruit.

Ok feldon30, repeat after me:

I will STOP drinking coffee and/or lay off the tweak,

I will start taking anger management classes,

I will start on medication for my hatred of the world, which will quell my urges to SCREAM at people for making, in my opinion, stupid statements...

Say that as many times as you need to...

I don't have a problem with people telling me I'm stupid... But I do have a problem with HUGE, and unwarranted, explosions of anger. Your not helping anything, especially yourself, by getting THAT pissed off over a Fooking PLANT WEBSITE!!!!

I do agree with many of your points! I'm NOT saying that youre wrong...

But what I will clarify is that if you ONLY shop at the Safeways, Dominicks, Jewels, Albertson's, Cub Food's, exc. then yes, your plants will turn out tasteless and crappy but if you shop at the little places like we have here in Chi-Town every few blocks like Stanleys Fruit and Vegetable "Stands" that have a tendency to buy from local growers, provide A HUGE selection of Organic produce, and a lot of the time just have a MUCH superior set of goods OR if you live anywhere near a Farmer's Market, or even near a small co-op then you have access to GOOD TASTING produce that has been modified and bread for the characteristics that I stated above.

I only buy from the Major Chain Stores when I don't have time or access to the car to go to Stanleys. (Which, if you do live in Chicago or in the area I HIGHLY recommend for both quality and price!)

So MELLOW OUT DUDE!! Hell, go smoke some weed or have a drink or meditate or WHATEVER you need to do to stop the psychosis that is engulfing your personality!

Wow!

Just keep chanting "This is ONLY A GARDEN FORUM"! "They are not out to get me or destroy the world"! (I gave up my plots for world conquest when I found out that the "minions" had unionized and expected Health Bennies)

I love you man Thank you for posting your opinion, I am not out to stifle free speech, but CALM DOWN before the heart attack

You called US all stupid for buying seeds.

I wasn't angry in the slightest when I wrote that. Mostly amused at the arrogance and immaturity you depicted for all the world to see. You need to grow up my friend.

There are many reasons why you cannot grow successful plants from the produce you buy at the grocery store, and I spelled them out in detail so that hopefully you will learn. A flippant answer was not due, but instead a very detailed response, which is what I gave.

I can't believe you aren't so embarassed that you come back and try to fight me. If you think my detailed, helpful answer came from anger, then you must have a very jaded view of the world. You can either try to learn something from this forum (as I do every day), or continue to try to slap people around, which won't get you far.

I have been growing from Veg/Fruit stands for years now and have always gotten what I expect.

I got the same, exact, hatch new Mexico chilis from my plant that I purchased from the guy on the side of the road while driving through Hatch on my way back from Arizona.

I got purple, orange, green, and red bell peppers from the seed's I took from the large, hardy, and very productive fruit's that I purchased from Stanleys Market.

I got the same yellow, orange, and red tomato's that I purchased from Dominicks/Safeway.

I got large, tasty, onions and garlic from the bulb's that I got a Albertson's/Jewel.

Neither I nor anyone else I know have ever once had any problems or got any unexpected results with the QUALITY, organic, and locally grown produce we purchase for this because we only purchase the best that we can afford.

If we all stopped buying the crap that they force on us at the major chain stores then the farmer's wouldn't grow it because it would not be profitable...of course, that is if the Fed's don't pay them to grow it anyways through subsidies...but even that couldn't last forever.

If you don't want to grow crap then don't buy crap.

The seed's are not unstable or unreliable if you buy from the little guy that only grows a dozen acres of each crop instead of the Mega Farms that grow hundreds of acres of the same flavorless crap.

And when it comes to tomato's it isn't that they are bad plants...it is that tomato's are so fragile that they need to be picked green and artificially ripened with gas and not through the natural metabolism of the starches into sugars. You can grow fruit that is 1000X better then what you purchased not because it is a different plant but because you will allow it to come to full ripeness on the vine and then not store the tomato below 52'F.

(52'F is the temp that causes the enzymes that allow the fruit to continue to convert starch to sugar to switch off and once it is off you can't turn it back on so NEVER store your tomato's in the fridge until you want to stop them from going bad.)

You can spend $10.00 on a bag of "Seed Onions" and "Seed Garlic" at Home Depot or you can get Pearl Onions, Green Onions, and bulb Garlic at the store/stand for pennies.

Or get Baby Finger Potato's for $2.00 a pound instead of buying "Seed potato's" for exorbitant prices at the Nursery.

It all boils down to what you buy to put into your body in the first place.

I'm also not saying that there is some huge, global, corporate conspiracy. The farmer's grow what they grow so that they can get the most of their harvest from point a to point's b, c, d, e, exc. for the general consumer that doesn't live near to the grow zones.

If you live in the Mid West then you get kick ass corn all summer because it was grown 10 miles -> that way. By the time it gets to California, it is crap because the sugars have converted to starch so you believe that it is industrially produced crap.

There are so very many factors that determine the quality of what you get.

I also collect seed's from wild versions of cultivated flowers and fruit and though they don't turn out as perfect as the one's I could buy in the store it is more satisfying because I know that I didn't buy them and therefore I have something special that I can coddle and cultivate to my personal satisfaction.

You get variations no matter what you do. I've purchased seeds and gotten weed's instead. Purchased purple jalapenos and gotten some strange chili I had never seen before. (They were really tasty though so I wasnt mad)

Whatever "Hybrid" you might get from the store is the same hybrid that you can buy in packets if you want to.

Everyone can do what they want, I'm not saying and have never said anything contrary to that, but I'll ask again, WHY buy seed's when you can get the same thing or better from what you eat every day???

If it produces viable seed's then why throw them out?

There are tons of people that say that if you want to grow poppy's then don't buy the one's in the packets because the one's my McCormic in the jar are better and grow more because of the way they are handled. The seed's in the packet crush so very easily...

And if you want good hot peppers then buy a jar of chili flakes that are crushed and not ground and you take those seeds and they produce the same damn thing only better because they are your baby's and you only give your baby plants the best.

I got dozens and dozens of people that do what I do and, like me have NEVER had an issue. I'm not saying that it doesn't happen but it hasn't to anyone I know in either Illinois or Arizona or California or New Mexico or Ohio or Michigan or South Carolina or Florida or Virginia Beach...

Just pick the best for your dinner and you have picked the best for your patio.

So MELLOW MAN!! This is just some stupid plant website... we tell of our own experiences! We are not experts or trying to talk to God or start a movement or anything...

If you have had different experiences then post them but, as you said, grow the hell up! Jeesh... I'm sorry I wounded your inner child. If I ever meet you I'll buy you a cookie to say I'm sorry.

The bottom line is, you came here with both guns blasting about how we're all somehow stupid or gullible for buying seeds and then drew a ton of conclusions about us. I think most members of this forum are offended by your initial post.

It is obvious that you DO have experience growing your own produce, but you also list some special circumstances. Namely, access to incredible farmer's markets that simply do not exist everywhere. If I had access to fantastic tomatoes a 10 minute drive away, I wouldn't be putting so much sweat equity into growing a garden.

Most of the "Farmer's Markets" around here are now starting to look like a dumping ground for excess grocery store produce. I rarely find a variety that you can't find in a grocery store. Most of us don't have "source material" (i.e. fantastic watermelons, tomatoes, etc.) that we can copy.

My initial motivations to grow a garden this year were because the quality of the tomatoes, watermelons, etc. at the store are down the toilet and red bell peppers cost $2+. So this year, the goal was to supplement the grocery store.

Next year the goal is to partially REPLACE the grocery store. I am increasing the number of crops from 5 to 30. I don't have any agendas except to demystify things that are sometimes presented as mysterious. I really appreciate all the no-nonsense posting on this forum. I just think you made a lot of assumptions and tried to preach something that just isn't possible in most areas of the country. Some people don't have time to do what you suggested.

Realize that these "seed catalogs" you see posted here all the time didn't start out that way. When the great "hybrid" exodus started happening, a few interested parties started saving seeds from desirable plants and growing them again each year. Then people started mailing seeds (for free) through the mail to each other. Then the Seed Savers Exchange formed, which was an annual "Yearbook" where these varieties (that most people didn't and still don't have access to) were listed and people traded with each other through the mail. No profit was involved. It was an attempt to save these varieties that industry forgot.

Now, fast forward to 2006 and it's the "I want it now" society. Yes, I could trade by mail (which I am loathe to do) to try to get the seeds I want, but if I can go to a website, make a few clicks, punch in my CC, hit ORDER, and have varieties that I would have to scour the US to get, hell yes it's worth $2 a package for several year's worth of plants. And I will probably try to save seed from my tomatoes this year. But I have to start somewhere. There are very desireable species that are simply unavailable at the market. For example Brandy Boy. It is a hybrid, so you cannot save the seed. But you won't find it at a farmer's market either. I suppose I could hop on a plane and fly to these heirloom tomato markets in the midwest and new england states (been a long time since I visited where I grew up). But again, a packet of seeds for $2 is reasonable. And we keep bandying about this $2 price. I bought a ton of seeds at Home Depot for 40% off yesterday (avg. 89 cents to $1.25 a packet). And I filled in the remainder from HeirloomSeeds.com which averages $1.15 to $1.50 a packet. Extremely reasonable.

$80 to get the seeds to start a garden and last a few years is not a big deal compared to the money spent on lumber, soil, trellising materials, etc. Yes it's possible to do these all on the cheap but this is what I've chosen to do. Now that I am started, I am going to recycle as much as I can. I've got a big compost pile going (and a new friend on a horse farm). I'm going to work the soil with leaves and grass from neighbors. But I have to start somewhere.

Can we agree that your original post was, in some ways, rude?

Originally posted by squeeziemonkey:
I got dozens and dozens of people that do what I do and, like me have NEVER had an issue.

The same thing exists here. It's called the Seed Savers Exchange. It's an organization that fosters saving of seeds from varieties and trading them by mail, etc. No profits involved. Just saving varieties from extinction and distributing germplasm across the country.

Originally posted by squeeziemonkey:
We are not experts or trying to talk to God or start a movement or anything...

And yet that's exactly what your original post sounded like. We're all fools for buying seeds. We should start a movement to buy our "crops" from farmer's markets and stop using seed companies. I don't see how your original post could be seen as anything OTHER than some kind of "call to action".

P.S. I'd be curious to know how you are getting seeds for cauliflower, broccoli, brussels sprouts, carrots, parsnips, beets, lettuce, etc. which must all be grown significantly past their harvest date in order to get seeds (carrots have to be grown for a whole second season).

squeeziemonkey: Go to the gardenweb experiments forum. The seed clique is a tough one.

I thought the "seeds" forum was going to be fairly relaxing (been in the Tomatoes and Veggies forums for a while). Then someone started waving a red cape. :)

Geesh guys/gals...settle down..... Playing in the dirt is supposed to be fun. Just grow the tomatos and anything else whatever way you want....As long as you get the results you want and you're happy with your veggies....so be it. Personally, I'm just starting my first veggie (actually it's just tomatos and hot peppers...a few lettuce plants) some are from saved seed from trades of heirloom tomatos, I think one person sent me ones they saved from the grocery store, and some are commercial....know what? I'm ganna have lots of tomatos (and peppers)! LOL! Enjoy your gardening in whatever way you enjoy it the most, and have a great weekend.

Squeeziwhatsit, Feldon made a totally calm, clear point-by-point reply to your first post and YOU were the one who went off with lots of capital letters, hyperbole and exclamation points. If anybody needs to chill out around here it's you. Jeez.

Kristin

Kristin
The last post was from me....tcmers....so I hope your post wasn't misdirected.

Nope, wasn't thinking of your post.

Kristin

I would have to agree with Feldon as to it not being as easy as Squeesieperson would make it seem. And there are experts here at GW, Master Gardeners who have more schooling than most doctors or vet's. They have to learn and remember thousands of species whereas a doctor learns about one ( humans ) and vet's learn about many more but a whole lot less then the plant kingdom.
I have been gardening for 12 years and still consider myself an intermediant gardener, certainly not an expert.
Last year I thought to myself, why buy seed potatoes? when I have a whole bunch growing eyes in my bin. I planted them and while yes, I did get a harvest from them, they were not what I would have gotten had I spent the money on getting the right thing to plant.
There is a saying in life that goes " if something is too good to be true, than it probably isn't" and also " nothing in life is free".
Well, I've learned alot from this "stupid plantsite" --(Squeesies words not mine). I have learned more in the short time I've been a member here,( 7 months) than in all of my gardening experiance.
Especially from Feldon's reply to Squeesie. I am happy you took the time to try and educate her, Feldon and I'm sorry she took offense rather than try and learn something herself.
Debra

All I have to say is WOW! Well said feldon. I have made lame attempts at growing from the seeds from produce from grocery stores or plant stands and have realized they may not be true to parent, but if they taste like garbage to begin with, and taste like garbage after I harvest them they are still garbage. If someone likes the tasteless produce at the store, they will like the tasteless veggies they produce. Case closed. I like to buy seeds, and have great plants or trade seeds and have great plants. I surely dont want what I pay the grocery store for.

OMG yes Feldon you were very kind to try to educated "squeeziemonkey" (what kind of name is that anyway?) and I'm sorry that there are people like her/him in the world that can be so ungrateful and rude to someone who is only trying to help them. I agree 100% with everything you said (as I have also tired squeezie's suggested method of saving some money and it was a massive failure) and i also agree with what "girlndocs" said. Squeezie if this is just a "stupid plantsite" then why are you even here? For God's sake, please try to control your temper and treat others with the kindness and respect that they have treated you.