Are There Different Types of Carlessi Viburnums?

15 years ago

I have 3 carlessi viburnums, but they are not very fragrant --- I remember being able to smell their perfume wafting through the air in other locations, but with mine, you need to stick your nose right into the flowers. I do get a lot of blooms on each shrub, so quantity does not seem to be the issue. Also, they shoot out suckers 4-5 feet high each year, which I trim back, because they look so scraggly.

Are there different types of carlessi? What is your knowledge/experience with this shrub? I know they do not have a long bloom time, but this is the last year I intend going through looking forward to, then being disappointed in their performance.

Any help would be very welcome!!

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Comments (5)

Dan _Staley (5b Sunset 2B AHS 7)
15 years ago
It sounds as if these are ~new shrubs. They get more fragrant as they get older if they like where they are. If they don't like where they are, they do not perform as well. Give them time.

Dan
Iris GW
15 years ago
Absolutely there are different cultivars of Viburnum carlesii. Cultivars are cultivated varieties that have been selected for improved characteristics such as fragrance, form, flower, improved resistance and many other criteria.

Some of the cultivars mentioned by Dirr are 'Aurora', 'Charis' (which he calls highly fragrant but isn't impressed with the untidy form of it), 'Diana', 'Arlene', 'Compactum', 'Marlou' and 'J. N. Select' (sold as Spiced Bouquet).
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Thanks for such a well-written explanation! I purchased viburnum trilobum compactum plants from Forestfarm several years ago-- and although they survived for ten years or longer, they never did anything. Now I understand why they never produced fruit . . . but actually, they barely even bloomed! I finally gave up and pulled them out this spring. Very disappointing. As to why plants of different provenance bloom at different times even if they are of the same species, maybe you could think of it this way: every species has some genetic variability within the species. A group of specimens growing in a certain area would tend to produce seedlings that bloomed at several different times. However, the seedlings that bloomed at the best time for that location would have a natural advantage over the seedlings that bloomed a little too early, or a little too late. Therefore, by natural selection, the bloom time that is best for the area would eventually become the most commonly found genetically-programmed bloom time amongst plants in that area. In other words, the gene pool of seedlings in that location would have been narrowed. Similarly, seedlings from a different part of the country would slowly narrow their genetic pool to reflect whatever bloom time is best for their location. When you then order plants from the two different locations, even though you are now growing them in identical conditions, their bloom times will continue to be influenced by their genetic programming as well as their current growing conditions-- and this will be true for as long as those two plants live, even if they are growing side-by-side. Does that make sense? I realize that I'm not explaining it very clearly. :( (Maybe another way to understand it is to think about humans: we are all one species, but we look a lot different according to our ethnic backgrounds because when groups of people were isolated geographically from other groups, an unusual or recessive trait-- red hair, for example-- had the opportunity of becoming very common within that specific isolated population.)
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I know something about viburnums. They're my favorite things in the landscape and I have about 24 of them, probably eight or nine cultivars, including three carlesii. I've read the Michael Dirr "Viburnums" book cover to cover: twice. They're a bit of an obsession with me. Your shrub is in the wrong spot. I suggest you move it before too long. It is WAY too close to the foundation, where soil is never very good anyway. Nothing should be planted that close to a foundation. It needs to be centered at least 4-5 feet away from the house to give it room to spread, and if you don't have the room, please don't try to force it to survive in that confined space. It is also right on top of some hostas, and even if it did manage to survive that spot, it would overrun them within a year and would be smashed up against the house. The foliage should be a much deeper green than I see in the photos, likely because of the intense sun it gets. (We have two leatherleaf 'Allegheny' viburnums on the northeast corner of our house and the one that gets more sun is always a shade or two paler.) Carlesii likes half sun and half shade. We have ours on the western side of the house about five feet from the foundation, and they are shaded until about 1pm. If yours is getting all-day sun, that is not good at all. It might be adaptable, as bogturtle says, but there is a limit to how adaptable they are. If you want something to perform at its best, plant it in a location suited for it. You don't say if you have carlesii or carlesii compactum, which is a smaller version of the cultivar. I don't know from experience what the true difference in their size is, but the regular carlesii can easily grow to 6-ft tall and across. Even the 'compactum' will spread to 4-ft, which is too large for your spot. (Mine are 5-ft across and about 7-ft tall.) I harp about "the right plant in the right place" all the time, as I'm doing here, but shrubs aren't cheap, and they should never be forced to live in spots where they cannot thrive. . This post was edited by MulchMama on Thu, Sep 5, 13 at 12:31
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I can't guarantee what variety. Looks sort of like this: www.gardensandplants.com/images/plants/Viburnum%20plicatum%20Lanarth.jpg Picture on another website that looks like them is listed as viburnum onondaga, but Gardenweb is blocking that URL so I can't include it here. Several mature plants, some about 5 feet tall, the largest maybe 10 feet tall. I'm willing to help you dig them out Sunday, or we can make arrangements for a mutually available time on a different day. Since these are already fully leafed and blooming, this isn't the ideal time to transplant, but we need to clear the space for other plants. Let me know if you need any of these! I'd welcome any type of perennial food plants, but no trade necessary. These Vibrunum are located just North of Monroe in Snohomish county. We have other plants to give away once we identify them, so whoever comes to get viburnum will have the option to collect other plants (or cuttings) while here.
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Very interesting, Bruce, and most helpful. So, I was at a good garden center two days ago, looking at their AWV offerings. They had both 'Blue Muffin' and 'Autumn Jazz'. Both looked neat and clean, both had lots of fruit clusters, and both were in good supply for this job, albeit that may come a bit later, in the fall. But the real kicker was, I stopped at one of our community's swimming pools. This large installation has very extensive grounds, lots of shrub beds, and loads of viburnums. In fact, it was this planting in particular which led me to appreciate the AWV. While I did not design this site, I was around from its inception and have always noticed lots of fruiting on the AWs there. Installed in 1991 or thereabouts, I doubt the designer would have used two AWV varieties, nor is there any outward sign of this being the case. They all look the same and they are full of fruit. I guess I'm really wondering about the veracity of the claim that two simultaneously-blooming cultivars are needed for good fruit set in this plant. I used to have the landscape plan for this site but it is long gone. It really seems doubtful to me-knowing who it was that designed it, as well as the physical evidence-that there are two arrowwood viburnum varieties present within this planting. I just really don't think that to be the case. There are however good numbers of cranberrybush viburnums present, but it seems doubtful that would play any role. At any rate, you've steered me off the 'Blue Muffin' even though the store ones looked good, as your experience suggests it may not be all that. Additionally, I'm starting to strongly doubt I need to somehow incorporate that second pollinizer variety into this planting, given your words as well as my own observations. Thanks again. +oM
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earthychick
Original Author
15 years ago
Follow up question for esh ga --- are the different cultivars that you mentioned all supposed to be fragrant? And can you recommend any of these that you mentioned? I am afraid that I received some unknown variety from the landscaper who first installed these 3 shrubs ---- but maybe with some time they will get better, as dan suggested (this is their 3rd year).
Iris GW
15 years ago
Your landscaper may have just installed what we call the "straight species" - that is the plant as found originally in nature. V. carlesii itself is fragrant to some degree, but I'm sure individual plants vary. That is certainly why some cultivars are developed, to ensure things like reliable fragrance.

'Aurora', 'Charis', and 'Diana' are noted as fragrant by Dr. Dirr. He makes no such notation of 'Arlene', 'Compactum', Spiced Bouquet or 'Marlou'. However, with a name like Spiced Bouquet, you would think it would be.

In the future, when purchasing plants for fragrance, it is usually recommended that you buy it in bloom to make sure you get something you like. I realize that you didn't buy these, of course.
Dan _Staley (5b Sunset 2B AHS 7)
15 years ago
Dirr also says that in general the fragrance is 'truly outstanding' with no distinction and individual descriptions of cultivars are focused on fls appearance and who introduced it. Sunset also makes no distinction in fragrance. You have to wait a few years for the fragrance to appear.

I used this shrub often when I had my landscape design business, in CA I did morning shade only. Perhaps if these shrubs are mature, they are poorly sited, are unhappy, and are not rewarding you.

Dan

Are There Different Types of Carlessi Viburnums?

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Dan _Staley (5b Sunset 2B AHS 7)

Iris GW

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Are There Different Types of Carlessi Viburnums?

Comments (5)

Dan _Staley (5b Sunset 2B AHS 7)

Iris GW

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earthychickOriginal Author

Iris GW

Dan _Staley (5b Sunset 2B AHS 7)

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earthychick
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