There was a really good link provided last week. I can't speak from experience since I don't have a bottom drain or inline filterbox (do have a skimmer box and biofalls)... but I would think you want the pump inline between the drain and the bio-filter... preferably at or slightly below the main pool level (elevation) so water flows into the filter box (see link).

The pump then sends the filtered water up to the biofalls.

Here is a link that might be useful: Setup w/ bottom drain, inline pump/filter box, etc

Thanks pondbucket :)

I guess my concern about pump placement right after the bottom drain is solids being sucked into the pump. If that doesn't seem like a big deal to anyone, then it seems like the most logical place to me.
I was thinking maybe an in-pond mechanical filter between the drains and pump though. Wonder if that would work?? And what I could cheaply construct??

Thanks again!

"I guess my concern about pump placement right after the bottom drain is solids being sucked into the pump. If that doesn't seem like a big deal to anyone, then it seems like the most logical place to me.
I was thinking maybe an in-pond mechanical filter between the drains and pump though. Wonder if that would work?? And what I could cheaply construct??"

I think a mechanical filter is what the link shows, though not "in-pond" as you say. Perhaps someone else can chime in here... but the link shows the pump AFTER the mechanical filtration in the filter box because things, large things, could get sucked in depending on your pipe size.

There was a link about this only a week ago.

Good Luck!

mammabird, I have a 50 gallon barrel sunk into the ground, the top of the barrel is level with the top of the pond.
My bottom drain is piped into that barrel about a third of the way up it's side. This is where the debris from the pond settles.

I made a 15" square frame almost three feet high out of 1/2" PVC pipe and fittings. I covered it all around with blue AC filter material, secured with nylon ty-raps.
It sits inside the 50 gallon barrel.

My pond pumps are located inside this "filter box frame" within the 50 gallon barrel. The blue AC filter covering the frame acts as a mechanical filter and traps the heavier debris that is drawn through from the bottom drain, stopping it from being sucked into the pumps.
As the water is pumped from the sump barrel it causes the water to flow from the pond through the bottom drain plumbing, bring the debris with it.

I have two different sized Laguna pumps,that alternate throughout the day by a timer control, they pump the water from the barrel up to my filter system, from there it runs back to the waterfall and into the pond.

I also have a solids handling sump pump submerged at the bottom of the sump barrel and every so often I turn it on to suck out the sludge that has accumulated and pump it onto the garden.

To do a thorough job of cleaning,halfway through the season, I turn the pumps off, plug the bottom drain and pump out the sump barrel completely. Then I wash down the filter material covering the frame, pump the sump out again and we set to go.

You don't need the sump pump arrangement if you don't want to go to the added expense. You can suck out the water from the sump barrel, when required, with a shop vac. I just find it easier with the sump pump in place.

"Horton"

Agree with horton. Allow the bottom drains to gravity flow to a filter box that is outside of the pond. Submerged prefilters are a royal pain in the neck in every way. Plus with this set-up, you don't have to worry about baby fish going down the drains and into the pump impeller....they will be safely in your filter box waiting for you to rescue them. You can buy nice filter boxes that have a series of filter pads and brushes in them and a pump at the end to move the water to the top of the water falls, or you can DIY one with a 55 gallon barrel. I like Horton's idea of a sump pump in the bottom of the barrel that pumps the sludge out every day. Fantastic idea! Keeping the filter clean of accumulated waste is really important.

Your pond is a really nice size. You should work on coming close to turning all the water over once per hour. That is one BIG pump. A better and much more effective idea is to run each bottom drain into it's own barrel filter. Instead of one, put down two barrel filters, each with their own pump to move the water to the top of the falls. What size bottom drains are you planning to use? To move that much water, especially using gravity flow, you need to go with 4" drains. Since you are planning to put no holes in the liner, what brand of drain will you use? The 2" tetra bottom drain is worthless for gravity fed. It won't flow enough water. The only other one you could use is the one made by AquaArts. But do not fear putting holes in the liner. Bottom drains are very easy to install and do not leak.

Thanks Horton & Ccoombs.

I would be real interested in photos of your filterboxes in your landscapes (how you disguise the tops, arrange your boxes, etc.) and your retrofit of the pond for a bottom drain. Should you have any of these images, could you share!?

Thanks.

Pondbucket, I have a wooden deck that is situated next to the pond and overhangs the pond for about a foot.
When I installed the new pond a few years ago, with the bottom drain, I plumbed the piping and the sump barrel underground, prior to building the deck.
I have trap door in the deck right over the sump barrel that allows me access to do the clean outs etc, when required.
Everything is out of sight.

I install a similar set up for another person, but instead of having a deck abutting the pond, I surrounded the top of the buried drum, which was located about five feet away from the pond, with a flower bed.
I made a two feet in diameter, wooden cover, for the top of the barrel and we placed a tub of flowers and trailing plants on the cover which disguises the whole thing.
The tub of flowers has to be lifted off the barrel's cover to do the clean outs but that is no big chore. It isn't that it is a daily task.

If you are going to use the type of retro fit bottom drain, which comes over the top side of your pond, it would have to be plumbed down and underground to where you situate the sump barrel.
It is a much better job and makes the flow from the pond to the barrel easier, if you pipe boot the bottom drain piping through the side of the pond liner, below the water level, instead of coming over the edge. You could get an air lock in the section of piping that humps up above the pond level.
Just something to consider before you get started.

That way there is always water in the piping and the siphoning action taking place, as the pump takes the water out of the sump and pushes it up to the bio-filter.

My bio-filter, consisting of two very large Rubbermaid totes filled with blue cut-to-size, AC filter pads, bird netting, nylon pot scrubbers and topped off with a layer or two of polyester quilt batting as a final fine filtering material.
The totes are located behind a lattice screen that is attached to the side of my workshop, so again it too, is out of sight.

I should have taken a photograph of the mechanical filter frame that sits in the sump drum, before I placed it in there.
The next time I do a major clean out, I will do just that.
"Horton"

Thank you Horton and ccoombs1!! You are always so helpful here :)

Lots of great info. I wasn't planning on anything extra outside of the pond, but maybe the barrel filter/pump box would be a really good idea. One for each drain is probably the best set up.

I also think that going through the side of the liner is fine and makes so much more sense.

Horton, what type of pipe boot did you use? Is this something I can get at the hardware store?

Great idea for placing the sump pump in for clean-out's. Love that.

I hadn't decided on a bottom drain.....I thought the Tetra's were a tad small so I guess AquaArt is probably where I'm leaning.

What is the difference between those bottom drains and just the poly suction strainers?? Was looking at the 3"....you can see them here right after the Tetra drains..... http://www.webbsonline.com/catalog/tubing/index.html#drain?

I've never actually seen the bottom of a bottom drain in person so I have no clue what the difference would be. Maybe the design is more fish friendly??

Well, my underlayment is all in and i'm ready for the liner. I really need to make my decisions and get busy ordering and installing.

If I use 4" drains, what size pvc would you use to plumb?

And about the Laguna pumps, what is the smallest size I can get away with as far as the Laguna Max-Flo Waterfall & Filter Pumps, which can be found here.....
http://www.webbsonline.com/catalog/pumps/index.html

I'm really going for efficiency, but I also want to be sure i'm turning over the water enough.

Thanks everyone!

The basket suction strainer is not really suitable for a bottom drain. First of all, it will clog with leaves and bits of debris and won't do much good for long. Also, it won't draw as well as a real bottom drain. It will draw from above instead of forcing a draw along the floor of the pond. A bottom drain (as seen on Webb's page) actually draws from around a 6' radius along the pond bottom. This sweeps the bottom very well! For a 4" drain, you will use 4" pipe. that's the only way to get the flow you need to get.

as far as those max drive pumps...none are big enough if you are trying to use a single pump. If your pond is actually 10,000 gallons, you will want to try to turn over close to that every hour.

Here's a link that shows how easy it is to install a bottom drain. I am telling you...the first time I installed one, I was a nervous wreck. But it was really easy and never leaked. that pond is 5 years old now. I have installed many more since without a problem. It is the easiest and cheapest way to get good cleaning on the bottom of the pond.

Here is a link that might be useful: bottom drain link

Many Thanks, Horton!

So you're the guy that originated the small deck/dock look! :))

mammabirrd, I did the pipe boot through my pond liner, the way roofers do the penetration point for vent pipes, etc, going through EPDM roofing liner.

If you are going with a four inch pipe, you cut a three inch diameter hole in the liner. (For a three inch pipe penetration, a two inch diameter hole is used)
You then push the pipe through the hole in the liner and you will see that the liner around the hole hugs onto the pipe.

The liner is then secured to the pipe with a 4" hose clamp (available at Home Depot/Lowes or any good hardware store).
Try and purchase a hose clamp with a stainless steel screw if you can.
The regular hose clamps are made from stainless (unless they are from Asia) but for economic reasons, they use a mild steel, tightening screw, that will eventually rust out.

If you cannot find one with a SS screw don't panic, just smear the mild steel screw with a dollop of Vaseline to seal it from the water.

Once you have the pipe through the liner penetration hole and clamped where you want it. You then cut a piece of spare liner,overall 6 inches in diameter with a 3 inch diameter hole in the center of it.
This is the covering "doughnut" that will slide over the pipe and snug over clamp and the liner penetration point, to keep everything nice and neat.

Greg Bickal, who used to contribute great ideas free to this forum some years ago, has a pond business now and sells a video CD Rom, about installing a pond, plus many other great ideas and tips.
The video includes a step by step series of pictures on the "Pipe boot" installation. I think Greg now charges about $10 for the video and that's a bargain for all the information it contains.

I should add, that you can purchase pre-molded pipe boots to suit different pipe sizes, from various sources on line, they can cost up to $100.

I hope the link to Greg's site works for you. I think there was a difference of opinion between him and the powers here at GW and they would not link to his site for a while.
You can just Google it if it does not work.

Hope this helps,
"Horton"

Here is a link that might be useful: Greg Bickal site

Sorry i'm so late in coming back to reply....i've been working hard on this project and there just isn't enough hours in the day.

ccoombs1, thanks! That's pretty much what I thought as far as the strainer, but wanted to be sure I wasn't missing something. I am now a bit more educated on the design of the bottom drains and see there is quite a big difference there. :) I don't want to add anything to this new pond that is going to make me have to put my waders on more than I have to, lol. Been there, done that!

I really appreciate the link and BD advice. Thank you! I was this close to deciding on a regular bottom drain yesterday, but now I believe I'm going to go with the AquaArt 4" retro out the side.
You wouldn't happen to have a suggestion for a better pump? I am looking at gazillions of them and just can't decide. Energy efficiency is important to us, as well as the warranty. And I don't have a ton of money to spend :)

Horton, thanks so much! About the screws on the hose clamp, I did not know that....good info!
Greg's link works fine and i'd love to watch his DVD. It sounds very informative.
Sure hope you get the chance to take a picture of your mechanical filter frame....would love to see!

I am going to be adding a settlement pond or barrel just outside of the main pond. Still trying to get all that worked out, but I appreciate all the helpful advice.

Anyone want to give me a valve's 101 lesson?? LOL!

I have some pictures to post as soon as I get them uploaded so you can see the big, empty hole in the ground. :)

I did pipe boot connections on my retrodrain through the wall of the pond. Didn't make my hole as large as what Horton suggested--only 1/2 the diameter of whatever size pipe. Most recent was 3" and made a 1 1/2" hole in the centre of where I wanted the pipe. The liner stretches but it takes strong fingers. Easy to do and as far as I know no leaks.

Curious why aren't you looking at external pumps for your pond? They are more energy efficient, easy to winterize. I have a priming pot on both of mine even though they are below ground but had a problem with quilt batting getting wrapped around the impeller of the older pump before using a priming pot. I have a Sequel 4350GPH pump that is very quiet uses 175W. This year I plumbed this pump to my sc and the old pump (Sequence 750 4200GPH but only pumping about 1/2 of that due to bent shaft) to my skimmer. I probably don't need both pumps as also changed my waterfall out this year so is smaller. The Sequence is noisy and leaks a little on start up around the shaft. Long story short I love the external pumps. Aquaart carries good external pumps and also the bottom drain that is mentioned either here or other forums.

I also like the skimmer--it collects alot of surface stuff like dust! In the fall I run my pond on the skimmer only so that I can remove my drains (have a midwater drain now which is also awesome) before the water gets too cold. Like Horton my pumps/sc are hidden under a deck.

Two pummps might be an idea for your pond as you need less flow through your biofilter and more flow through your waterfall. One idea I saw here if you only use one pump and need the circulation (in your case at least 5000GPH) was to pump part of the water back into the main pond and the rest through the biofilter/stream. Aquaart has a diagram of how to do this.

As for valves depends on if you have a drain on you skippy filter etc. I have a knife valve between pond and sc on the bd but on the midwater drain which also goes into sc I don''t--I use a standpipe. After skimmer and sc 2" ball valves--I know could have used knife valves there but ball valves are more reliable. My check valves are after the pump but before the ball valves to the waterfall filters. This is to keep the water from the waterfall filters coming back down through the pump and into the pond if power goes off which it does here frequently. Because I have priming pots, sc and skimmer I don't need check valve before the pump. Can't remember when you need check valve before the pump--sorry.

Ball valves after the check valves to control flow to filters. I know that I could get away with running one pump now due to the changes I made in adding a midwater drain to my sc (had alot of draw down!) and waterfall changes as the valve on my Sequel pump to higher waterfall is turned down more than 1/3rd. It's just time consuming and more pipe to change it out again.

I don't know if you are allowed to use ABS in the US. I use it here as fittings are available and it stands up to my climate. Also because it's black any pipework in the pond lie retro bd don't show as much.

You have a fun project on your hands! It can get rather overwhelming but there are many knowledgable people on this forum who can help you. Good luck. Patti

Patti, Wow! Thanks for all the good info. I really appreciate the time you took to explain some things....your post is very helpful!

As far as external pump, I have been back and forth on this one....but the main reason I would say is my climate. I don't want something I have to shut down and remove for our long, cold winters. Externals seem very similar to my swimming pool pump, which requires that I disconnect the plumbing and bring it in each fall.
The potential to hear it running is also another factor that is swaying my decision.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I didn't think I could run an external pump in the winter.
I'm one to keep the falls and stream running all year. I've done this many winter's and have never had a problem.

I wasn't planning on a skimmer because even though the pond sits at the edge of the woods, it will be covered all year round. I shouldn't have too many leaves. We have a lot of GB Heron's around and they are frequent visitor's to my current pond and the little natural pond that sits just off our new property. So I will be netting the pond at first to keep the predators at bay, then eventually will hopefully build the more permanent cover I have in mind. The netting is such a pain, but it's effective. I'm sure there will be lots of raccoons wandering around as well. So anyway, I think the water will get circulated really well after it comes down the stream and falls and I don't suspect there will be too much dust or debris on top. I think the bottom drains will really be fabulous though, and I'm excited to finally have a pond that has them.

I'm definitely looking at splitting up the water flow. Still haven't decided if I will get one large pump or two smaller ones??? I'm afraid if I get something verging on 10,000 gph that will be too much flow for my small stream and it will look and sound like Niagara Falls, lol. I'd prefer it to be gentler.

I have several spitters that will need hooked up including a pretty large one, so I have other ways to divert some of the flow I guess.

As far as my mechanical filtration, I'm definitely going to add at least the settlement pond. If I make this from a piece of liner instead of a barrel, wonder how deep it should be? I'm thinking of somehow splitting it into horizontal "chambers" separated by filter pads maybe? With the pump being placed in the last chamber? Or maybe I should add a 2nd, separate small pond for the pump??

I have a few pictures to share.....

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And the same shot, but I doodled the outline of the pond....

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View's from the top (the Biofalls will be completely hidden and buried after we get everything plumbed...

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And a view from my bedroom window.....

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Like my fishie topiary?? :)

I have some landscaping done pre-pond because I've been moving plants from my current home for the past 3 years. Tried to give myself enough room so the plants wouldn't be in the way. Yes, I sometimes do things backwards :)

Anyone have any tips for the cheapest, 4" black flex pipe? Everything I've seen online is $$$$$. Wow.

Any other ideas in info. that anyone wants to share will be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

Jalal, I go along with your point about the hole size through the liner for the pipe boot. Half the pipe size, is the diameter of the cut hole, recommended by Greg Bickal, in his video demonstration, I believe.

A professional pond installer I know, told me that going with a slightly larger opening, as I described to mammabirrd, makes it easier to push the pipe through.
I have done it both ways and they both work as well.

In one article I came across on the subject, one guy said that you don't need the pipe clamp at all, as the liner is sealed to the pipe without it.
That over-flap of liner certainly does grip onto the pipe but I don't think I would take the chance on not having a pipe clamp on the boot.
I would be laying awake at night thinking about it, for sure!! LOL
"Horton"

Here is a link that might be useful: About no clamp on boot flap.

Wow! You've done lots of digging. Do you live in the mountains??? It looks gorgeoues!

What is that little jog in your first picture--after the stream? That could be one area for a settlment pond but you'd have to build the wall up between the two areas and it looks like you'd have to dig through some nice landscaping for the plumbing. Just curious about that area as from the picture looks like it could be a potential dead spot for circulation.

Probably where you suggested it (in your second picture) would be the best place.

I made mine from a liner. The sc is 42" square 32" deep on the sides then each side angles down to 48" deep in the centre. The sides before it angles down (like an upside down triangle on each side) are lined with green 2 x 12's, then old carpet for padding. I borrowed a hole saw to cut through the wood sides for the pipework for the bottom drain and the exit. My reto drain enters the chamber 24" down on centre from the top. The discharge side is 14" down. Used pipe boots for the liner on both. I do not have a drain in the bottom of my chamber as no place to drain the water. I use a sump pump to drain the chamber as I use it for water changes due to chloramines. Holds about 300 gals.

On Greg's CD he has a settlement pond between the pond and a pathway and built a bridge over the settlment pond which also had hyacinths in it. Looked really cool. He said you need a minimum of 10 minutes dwell time for it to be effective. If I remember correctly chamber needs to be 10% of your pond volume which is in your case a pretty big chamber! Mine is about 8% of my pond volume and works fine. I do have the two drains in mine now which is great as I'm getting junk off the bottom of the pond and stuff from the middle (suspended algae) and my draw down is only 1/2". When I only had the one drain draw down was 2" or more.

I'm not sure if you can run external pump all winter in your climate. I run mine until the end of Oct at the most temps get about 22F. Our winters are very long and very cold-40F last January which is why I shut the pond down for the winter.

If you phone up Aquaart Bruce the technician is very helpful. Happy ponding. Patti

Oh on a sideline. Today I've been shopvacing water out of my basement. Our water table is very high here and with the 4" of rain we've had this week the sump pump can't keep up. It's running every 20 minutes. I've shopvaced over 50 gals out off the hole where the backwater valve is on in my furnace room which is the centre of my house. The water is coming up through the concrete there. It's drizzling a little--only 54F out today but going up to 72F tomorrow until next Tuesday then rain again. My house is 57 years old and probably does not have any weeping tile around it. Had the sump pump put in three years ago (before I finished the basement renos)when everyone in our area was getting flooded. I am not impressed with all this water! Pumped out my pond down 1 1/2" as was over the skimmer opening. Skimmers don't work well when not skimming!

Mama,
Great pics! That is going to be an awesome pond once you're done.

I bought 4 inch flex from Webbs Online. It was the best price at the time, about a year+ ago, but haven't checked prices recently. Check out the shipping costs though and don't be surprised - it's hefty. So too is the roll of piping. I bought 100ft and the coil of pipe was about 5-6 feet in diameter and, of course, drop shipped to the end of my driveway. Finally, the 4 inch PVC is kinda tricky to make slip connections with. I had to heat mine up with a blowtorch to get it flexible enough to get into/out of connectors. It makes gluing, which is usually simple on PVC pipes, a little cumbersome. Just some FYIs.

Good luck!

Here is a link that might be useful: My pond album

Patti,

Oh yes, lots of digging. Thank goodness for my Kubota :) Still was a lot of hand work though. We live in the mountains of PA....the Alleghenies. Lots of beautiful views out our way.

I think that little jog you are looking at is the shelf that I had just dug out for the plant only, shallow part of the pond.

Thanks for more good info! Such a great help.

I sure hope your basement is dry now. We have had a ton of rain too. My big problem is the grass.....I just can't keep up with mowing this spring. As soon as everything is mowed, it needs done again. Has left little time for anything else.

Chris, Thanks! I was standing in my driveway the other day and saw that we still had a roll of non-perf french drain pipe......wonder if I could use that?? I would only be using a few feet from the retro bottom drain to the pvc connection in the sidewall of the pond.

Still struggling on a pump decision. I REALLY want to place an order today and get moving on the move! I keep coming back to the Laguna because of the low wattage and great warranty and good customer feedback.

So if I use a 4" pipe from bottom drain to settlement pond and the outlet on the Laguna Max Flo 4200 is only 1 1/2", is that going to work if I put two of the pumps in? Could I run one to the waterfall and the other to spitters, etc?

Also, I am not familiar with the "Click Fit" connections on the Laguna. Can someone describe this who might have experience with them?

Thanks so much :)

Update....

I ordered two of the Laguna MaxFlo 4200's. Between the low wattage and the great warranty and reviews, I think they will be a good place to start to get things up and running.

25x50 liner will be delivered tomorrow! Bottom drain from AquaArt on it's way too. I just ordered one for now and will order another one if I need to. Want to see how this one works first.

I can't wait to finally start getting things together. This has really been a long time coming. We started our house build over 4 years ago and it wasn't long after that when I picked the spot for the pond.