You are a lucky woman!

As to that rain . . .

Jeri

What a coincidence, Rosefolly! I just made contact last week with my free-horse-manure-compost lady, and DH got a truckload yesterday. The lady said it was the best ever she's had, but I haven't had a chance to check it out what with protecting the potted roses from the freezes last evening and this evening after work. I'll be spreading it tomorrow thickly. I have pine straw in one bed. Do you think I could lay it and the alfalfa & sludge right on top? It would make life easier, for sure.

Sherry

I would definitely lay it right on top. Everything gets mixed together by my roosters anyhow though.

I would like to share something I found out in October 2008 which seemed to go against everything I felt made sense. When our rose group was at a public Botanical Garden, we listened to a talk about roses from the garden's rose "experts." They told us that each year they remove ALL of the old mulch, destroy it, and add new purchased mulch. My first thought was...give me your old mulch, I won't remove it. To me this practice of removing last year's mulch seems absurd and totally counter-intuitive. My feelings are even more confirmed having read the Vintage Pruning article.
When I asked these same "experts" which rootstock of roses seemed to work best for them, the blank expressions on their faces indicated they had no earthly idea what I was talking about.
Any comments?

robert

I think their blank expressions were a dead giveaway, Robert. I put on new mulch every year, right on top of the old stuff and my roses love it. I hired a homeless man to weed and he made a great hullabaloo, removing all the mulch waith the weedsf--It took me awhile to figure out what he'd done and, the roses did not like it. Of course had I put new mulch down immediately, that might have comforted them. My intutiion says that the more mulch they get the better in a drouth area.The beds that are older and have mmore layers of mulch do much better than ones that only have one or two layyers.
la

Hear, hear. After a while that thick layer of mulch turns into a very thin layer of compost, and then it's time to put down more mulch. What are these folks using, anyway, that it doesn't break down in a year?

Perhaps it's just Italy, but I see plenty and plenty of roses in gardens maintained by paid staff whose methods I would never imitate. At this point, Robert, I think you can feel free to question how the "experts" do it.

Melissa

Oh, I wish I had a truck! When I want some manure I bring large plastic bins and a shovel to the local stable!

As for removing mulch just to put down new...I can't imagine. It breaks down pretty quick here, must be the heat. I used crumbled leaves and pine needles when I'm out of regular mulch, and the roses love it.

I agree with Melissa, thick layers of mulch eventually becomes compost, at least where I garden.

Elaine

Now all I need is some winter rain...

... and hallelujah, for the past 48 hours we have been getting it, almost an inch now. No, this does not bring us back to average for this time of year, but at least back up to half of average. Given how low we had slipped below that, I am grateful. Of course I want more.

Speaking of composts and mulches, I top my compost with a wood chip mulch I get free from a local tree trimming company. This protects the actual compost from being weathered away by the action of the sun and the wind, so it does last longer and all of it benefits the soil. The wood chips last several years. My plan is to put is year's amendments right on top, then cover with a lighter layer of more wood chips. Watering in well should push most of the new compost and fertilizer down where it is needed. If not, it will get there eventually! But I will be careful not to let the mulch get too deep. I'm pretty sure that too much of anything is not a great idea.

Rosefolly

I truly hope that it is truly well composted. I do not allow horse manure on my property. Most everyone I know who blissfully spread horse manure now has terrible weeds. Everyone can argue with me all they want. My huge garden is nearly weed free. I owned a horse for ten years. He was not on pasture. I feed him alfalfa hay. Somehow when we were out and about he grabbed enough weed seeds to make my garden work much harder even though the manure pile heated up and composted pretty well.

There are probably plenty of weeds in even decent quality alfalfa hay, judging from the local hay fields. But weeds aren't the surprise. The surprise, nay, the shock, is that you have no weeds in your garden. Now that is a wonderment! The grasses are just now really taking off, and with acres of grasslands surrounding me, the best I can do is hope to have the weeds under control by the heat of July, when no more seeds can germinate. So I say you have the best thing going, and I wouldn't change a thing!

I got a big load of horse manure once in Washington and also had awful weed problems. Also, it just didn't seem all that rich, however useful as an organic amendment, though this stuff was mixed with straw.

I used, in Washington, to get chipped wood, with a preference for nitrogen-rich alder chips. I mulched my paths with wood chips and, when the weeds began to grow well in the paths, I took up the now partially composted wood chips and used them to mulch to garden beds, putting fresh chips in the paths. It worked pretty well.

Paula, congratulations on your rain!! I know how you feel! Enjoy!

Melissa

I'm so glad you got rain! Yay.

I seriously love a good load of manure :-). That's what I request for my birthday every year. Black gold. Congrats on finding a truck load of "good stuff".

Carol

Our local dump makes compost and sell's is for $6.00 a yard. I have a friend who owns a dump truck and hauls it to the property.

I love the stuff! I have strategic piles on all four corners of the property. Check with your disposal company. Many dumps make compost..

$6 a yard!! What a great price!! Our dump charges much more than that here. i've been using horse manure, found a guy that will load my truck so it's worth paying for. So far only 'cheese weed' sprouts from the stuff and it's easily pulled out.

Paula, I hope I didn't sound grouchy and preachy. I just have this thing about horse manure.

DH got another load for me yesterday. This MUST be the really good stuff because, whereas last year I could unload the truck in two hours, last weekend it took two long afternoons. Last year's was light and fluffy with a lot of straw. This year's is heavy and dark brown. I really love it. It reminds me of the dark soil in Connecticut. We'll see how much the roses love it this year. Since mine is free, I'll be going back for more, more, more. Thankfully, I don't have many weeds. Don't know why, but it's OK with me!

Sherry

Paula, you crack me up and I expected Pamela to chime in. We all know how pristine her beds are and her wariness of manure.

I hope this year to make it to the race track for free manure. My only problem is that I have to load it and get it home, so it will mean many trips.

I will need rain after I apply or the neighbors may boycott me.

Carol

Pamela, no problem. I know you are not a fan of using manure on your garden and I respect your reasons.

Even you would be impressed with this beautiful stuff, though, even if you would not want to put it on your garden! This looks like no other compost I've ever seen. In appearance it looks very much like peat, fluffy and medium brown in color. If I hadn't seen the horses for myself, I don't think I'd be sure what it was.

Carol, the neighbors would not be after you for using this stuff. Really, no scent. Even Freya ignored it!

Rosefolly

OK, i'm jumping in here with hesitancy . . .

i used to go to local farms and stables to pick up horse, cow and alpaca poop. but recently we (I live in northern california) have had a scare with e-coli. so i've stopped picking up poop for two reasons -- e-coli and i'm concerned about the drugs they feed the animals. do these get excreted in the poop and then transferred to my soil as i "enrich" it?

I'd love to hear your feedback . . .

joyc

How lucky you folks are, to be able to get manure! Our dairy farmer neighbors know it's fertilizer and keep it all to spread on their own fields. Oh, well, spoiled hay works quite well. I would so much love to see our gray clay turn brown--perhaps after a couple of hundred tons of hay...

The roses don't look bad, and after all that's what counts.

Melissa

**Our dairy farmer neighbors know it's fertilizer**

We once lived near a dairy farm that didn't know it was fertilizer and neither did all of the farmers in the area. They thought I was odd for wanting it. I thought they were foolish for not.

Now we have friends with horses who gladly pile it into our pick up, loads of sweet smelling dark brown wonderful stuff that we mix with shredded pine needles and leaves to build garden beds.

The neighbors like to look at my gardens; I hope one day they'll want to have their own roses and want to learn the wonders of composted leaves and manure. And in the process learn to see what Sherry said in her posting on colors, the wonders that are before our eyes, in the garden.

Paula you are right I would be tempted. My horse manure fertilized vegetable garden years ago had incredible soil. I'm still going to stick to "Tango Mulch" though.

It IS wonderful stuff. My formerly gray powdery sand is now black, but I'm wondering how deep. I'm assuming as I keep piling on the compost, the dark goodness will be moved deeper and deeper by the worms. Is this true? Can I expect in time to have black soil three feet deep??? Now THAT would be a wonder!!!

Hi, Duchesse, hope you have happy, COLORFUL thoughts all day.

Sherry

I wanted to respond a little to joyc in her post above about e coli in manures. I can't speak to the residual chemicals that might be in manures, but she said:

"i used to go to local farms and stables to pick up horse, cow and alpaca poop. but recently we (I live in northern california) have had a scare with e-coli. so i've stopped picking up poop for two reasons -- e-coli and i'm concerned about the drugs they feed the animals. do these get excreted in the poop and then transferred to my soil as i "enrich" it?"

I've been concerned about this too. Jeff Gilman's book, The Truth about Organic Gardening, p. 31-32, on the issue of manures says that human pathogens can exist in manures for as long as 21 months and to get advice from your local extension service about best composting methods for your area.

He says that organic farmers have to use stringent composting methods so safety there is not an issue for them, but for the home gardener, it is. Manures placed on food crops close to the time of harvest can cause problems in the food harvested. His example was manures placed on the base of an apple tree at harvest time. I usually grow herbs and tomatoes as food crops and the rest are landscape ornamentals. He recommends it, but says it needs to be well composted.

I've read both here and in other places about the dangers of manure teas, but well composted manures are a safe additive from everything I've been able to figure out.

Others - please add to this and correct me if I'm wrong here.

duchesse_nalabama,

thank you for your comments. i know that this can be a touchy subject, but i really wanted to hear what others know, heard, experienced. i don't want to sound like an alarmest, but i am concerned. I've even heard that the cow manures we buy at our local nursuries can be heavily contaminated.

so for now, i have moved to organic chicken fertilizer. it's more expensive, but what price peace of mind?

your 21 month rule seems reasonable and talking with the local extension office is a great suggetion as well.

any other thoughts/comments?

joyce

Do you guys add other fertilizers beside manure?

This year I gave my roses, manure, compost/manure blend, coffee grounds, Epsom salt and Alfalfa. Do I need to give them anything else?

wanttogarden,

As long as it's organic and not concentrated, I'd say keep on spreading it as it gets used up. Of course, I've never in my life had dirt to garden in that was good right at the start, which might be a different matter.

Right now we have of pottery-quality gray clay going down a depth of some feet; and I don't think it will be possible in our lifetime to overdo organic amendment, added as mulch. You folks in the U.S. who can get manure (and pine straw, ground tree trimmings, etc.) are really lucky in that respect.

Melissa