That depends on your pond. Most refuges are large enough for several fish at a time. Those are mostly overhangs in 12 to 20 inches of water. Sections of 4 to 6 inch flexible pipe works. It should be at least 18 inches long. Ceramic pipe works and cracked pieces are available at less cost. Large slabs of rock laid on top of cement block are good. Fish can hide in the most amazing places. You would never believe how many can crowd into a section of pipe. Large pots with a hole in them or placed on their side work. Plastic pots need a brick in them to make them stay in place. I don't recommend plastic crates. I have lost fish who get stuck and injured on sharp edges. They don't seem to realize they have grown too large or they forget in their panic or excitement. There are lots of different ways to make a hiding place. I'm sure other posters have much better suggestions. I'm not feeling too sharp today. Why don't you start a new thread on the subject?

These stories have made me sad but very much aware of the danger from the birds. My hubby built and now we are beginning to enjoy the pond in the back yard. I was fearful of placing fish due to the fact that we live on a lake and the pond is in the back. I have seen the herons here on the lake side dive off the dock into 5-8 ft of water and jump back onto the dock with a fish in his mouth. They do eat rather large fish, mostly brim or the shad. We bought 12 goldfish at the baitshop just to see how nature would react, and so far, about one month, we still have the fish. Pond is about 18" deep and we used a cement block with two holes to hold the pump and the first set of plants. We plan to add lots of plants before we spend money for fish. I am very amazed at myself for how attached I have become to fish I usually would have used to catch bigger fish for eating. So wish me luck with trying to have nature on both sides of the house!

Waterbug guy, First I will talk a little bit about concrete in water. You say it is a myth that concrete in water can kill fish and raise the PH. When concrete first sets up the surface PH is 12.0. Which is the same PH as a drain cleaner called "draino". As it is exposed to the CO2 in the air the PH goes down. But water is a very good leaching agent and so water will continue to try and get the chemicals out of the concrete. So will the PH in the water be raised? If the water has normal PH of 6.5 to 8.5 the answer is yes. The real question should be "how much will it raise it"? That question isn't easily answered as there are a lot of variables. Just to list some the age of the concrete, the condition of the concrete, is the water flowing over the concrete, the natural PH of the water, is the water being changed, and the volume of the water versus the contact area of the concrete. In some cases the rise might be so low as to make it very difficult to measure. But in other cases it can and does raise the PH to 9 to 9.5. At these levels it can and does kill fish. If I remember correctly you have stated that you are a pond contractor. If you are I hope you having started using roofing liner in the ponds that you build. Most of the time a person on this forum is never going to have a problem with roofing liner. Can there be a problem with roofing liner? This should be the question. The answer is yes. The chances that there could be a problem is very low. The largest pond product manufacturer in the US sent out a letter to all their customers a number of years ago. This letter said that all their liner in the future would be tested to be fish safe as they got a batch in that was not. In other words they were selling roofing liner as pond liner. This company had been selling a lot of liner for 10 years before this problem. If it had happen today with the wide use of the internet I would have think that some lawyer would have gotten this information and started a class action lawsuit against them and they would be out of business. The lawyer could easily have sued them not only for the cost of the liner that they had sold but for the cost to replace all those liners in the ponds built with them going back to the first time they sold this liner. The largest liner manufacturer in this country has told me that almost never would you ever have a problem with roofing liner but you might. I think that as a contractor you can't take that chance. If you were unlucky and did have a problem and were sued over that problem the lawyer handling the case would find out that they would sue for every customer that you have that has this liner. In other words you would be out of business. So is roofing liner toxic? No most of the time. But there is a small chance that there maybe a problem. I have only talked about 2 of the 8 things that you listed. I could easily talk about many of the other things listed but my point is this. You listed these things as black and white but they are not black and white. The only thing that is black and white about ponds is that all aquatic life will die. Mike

Hi Brian, I'm glad you went with the bigger pump. That's what I have on my pond, and it's functional. The frogs will come, even in the midst of downtown LA. There are about a billion gajillion of them in the LA river. I live in the center of suburban Simi Valley, which has no natural streams, no ponds or lakes, and Pacific tree frogs mysteriously appear out of nowhere. I think this may be part of the origin of the raining frogs myth. It's strange. You can also collect Pacific Tree frog tadpoles within the next three months and add them to your pond once it gets going and you have some algae for them to eat. I once collected some from a truck rut filled with water at a local plant nursery. I suggest you go to a koi site to see how much of a committment they are. Goldfish are really spectacular, and they do not need great water quality. They will beg for food from you, swim across the pond to greet you, and follow along as you walk along the edge of your pond. They are great pets. You should not change the water in your pond if your filtration and circulation are adequate, at least not for a long time. When you get your first algae bloom this summer and the pond turns into pea soup RESIST the urge to change the water. The algae will use up all of the nutrients, then it will die, leaving your pond clear. If you change the water you have to start all over again. To start off, you can treat your water with de-chlorinator, after a few days add your plants, and wait a few more days to add your goldfish. You can buy cheap small fish; they grow fast. Finally, plant your hardy water lilies in a nice, large container so they can grow. Don't worry about the dirt in the bottom of the pond unless there's a really measurable amount, like 1/8 inch across the whole bottom. Here's a link explaining the Sunset Zones. Have fun with your new pond, and post photos when it's done! Renee Here is a link that might be useful: Sunset Garden Zones