Mirandy will always nod, it's in her genes. Liebeszauber has much stronger peduncles and is a MUCH more vigorous, husky plant. Mirandy has it hands down for fragrance, but looses out on disease resistance. I don't remember detecting a whole lot of fragrance from Liebezauber, which isn't saying it isn't there, I just don't remember it, but Mirandy can blow your sinuses out of your head.

Mirandy was introduced in 1945 and bred from Night X Charlotte Armstrong, both of which have weak, thin peduncles, semi double flowers of large, papery petals and both suffer from mildew without spray.

Liebeszauber was introduced nearly half a century later, and in Germany which has had more anti chemical laws on the books far longer than we have. Every decade, disease resistance, heavier bloom with faster repeat, stronger growth, greater vigor, generally better garden plants result from breeding and selection efforts. I'm not saying Mirandy won't be worth growing, because that is totally personal taste, but with this information you'll be better able to make an informed choice and select the one which will better likely please you.

I think given your zone, Liebeszauber would be the better choice. As the previous poster indicated, Mirandy wins on fragrance for sure, but you have so many great fragrant reds, I'm not sure you'd miss having Mirandy. Her blooms did always have weak necks and were more pink for me compared to the other reds you list.

You asked about thorniness and that is one thing I don't like about Liebeszauber: it's very thorny, giving it sort of an...unfriendly? appearance in the garden. (I had the same feeling about the look of Marilyn Monroe in the garden, if you're familiar with that variety.)

Have you looked at Royal William? It's another vigorous Kordes rose and fragrant---not nearly as fragrant to my nose as the roses you list you already have--- but it's a good dependable red with large blooms and more "friendly" to me than Liebeszauber. (I purchased mine as Duftzauber I believe from Pickering or Palatine. I know you mentioned you're looking for ownroot and those are grafted on mulitflora, FYI. Maybe check Vintage Gardens or Rogue Valley Roses for ownroot?)

If you're getting William Shakespeare 2000 and Tradescant, maybe you want to add The Prince? I prefer the fragrance and deeper color of The Prince to WS2000 but they are both great roses IMO. (The Prince more mannerly upright, WS200 more wide and spreading.) I've read that Tradescant is not the strongest growing/healthy bush but have no personal experience with it. I can say that both WS2000 and The Prince make good cut flowers (for Austins.) I think the fragrance of the The Prince is very similar to the fragrance of Oklahoma and Papa Meilland. I find the fragrance of William Shakespeare 2000 to be similar to Mr Lincoln and Crimson Glory.

You've picked lots of classics, what a wonderful garden you'll have!

Here is a link that might be useful: Royal William aka Duftzauber

Rouge Royale, William Shakespeare 2000 and The Prince all died in my zone 5a garden. I do not winter protect. Tradescant has survived and is a weed protecting octupus. Griff's Red has also survived but does not have a strong fragrance.

Hey, Littlesmokie mentioned Royal William. Well it is available own-root from Northland Rosarium, which has an excellent reputation. Check them out. I don't have RW yet but have been eying it.

You might also consider getting Deep Secret, which Heirloom Roses offers own-root. It is a great cold zone red, Only medium-sized blooms, but shapely, INTENSELY FRAGRANT up there with Papa Meilland and Chrysler Imperial. It makes a midium-size bushy plant and is quite disease resistant for a hybrid tea. Not necessarily an exhibition rose, since the centers of the blooms don't keep their pinpoint centers after about half-open stage, but they still have high-centered, lovely hybrid tea form nonetheless. The color is as wonderful at the scent; deeply shaded blackish-red outer petals and intense red centers. Even though mine loses bloom quality in our steamy hot summers, I love this rose the rest of the year.

Mike

The info you've gifted me with on this thread is precisely why I post on gardenweb. You've confirmed that Mirandy does indeed nod and saved me from death by thorns. I had avoided Marilyn Monroe for precisely the thorny reason. If Leibeszauber is anything like her, I'm staying away from it and from Mirandy.

Now it comes down to Royal William v. Deep Secret. I'm placing orders with both Northland and Heirloom this year, so it's an easy add on either. What about thorniness, disease resistance, bloom lasting power? Looks like Deep Secret is a darker red than Royal William?

I pray that April comes soon so I'm too busy planting roses to dream up more roses to buy.

Mike, in another thread I read that Deep Secret is thornier than Papa Meilland. Is it as thorny as Marilyn Monroe? How thorny are we talking here? The thorniest rose I currently have is Aromatherapy, and her thorns almost manage to deter me from cutting blooms for the house, but I muster up my courage somehow. Would rather not have to take any more courage pills around other roses...

I grow Liebzauber. Or at least I did--I think its dead now. Here's my Leibzauber saga. I got it from Pickering for Fall delivery along with Olympiad and Royal William. The roses were mounded up for winter but when I uncovered them in the Spring, Olympiad was dead with canker Leibzauber had died back to the bud union from canker, and Royal William was fine. I spotted a bud emerging from the bud union on Liebzauber so I kept it and planted it in back where it didn't matter whether it lived or died. It grew slowly over several years as a one cane wonder but finally after about 5 years it built up to a vigorous, bushy rose. Last year, when it was 6 or 7 years old, it came into it's own and produced the most enormous roses I have ever seen. But this winter it got down to 15 degrees. Leibzauber is black all the way to the ground. I don't winter protect it (see the canker problem above). So I think I will be shovel pruning it. Bottom line--I would be concerned that it is too tender for zone 4 and it's suceptibility to canker might make winter protection a problem.

Royal William is a reliable,vigorous and healthy rose. The blooms are bluer than I would like. I can't vouch for fragrance--none of my roses in that bed are fragrant and I don't know why.

Some comments on your other selections--Chrysler Imperial has the best color of any of my red roses and is the standard by which I judge them. The color is rich and velvety with no bluing. But it is very prone to blackspot. It does respond to spraying though. Overall the bush is very coarse I am trying to find a red rose that has the color of Chrysler Imperial with flowers with good form, on a good looking, disease free bush. Haven't found the ultimate red rose yet.

Rouge Royale was shovel pruned after a couple of years. It had a bad tendency for bullheading and vegetative centers in the first flush so it wouldn't be until late July before I would get a decent rose off of it.

Ingrid Bergman is supposed to be a great rose. I wouldn't rule it out.

By the way, Konrad Henkel is a reliable red. I have won Queen of Show with it.

About the thorns-- Chrysler Imperial is the thorniest, Leibzauber is less and Royal William is the least. But none of these roses are anywhere near as thorny as Marilyn Monroe. Marilyn is in a league of her own.

Well, yes, Deep Secret has stiff thorns and in fair number, but not nearly as thorny as Marilyn Monroe. That is to say, you can easily find spaces between the thorns on the stem to hold the rose without being skewered. The fragrance is to die for and, to me, worth putting up with some thorns. The stems are nicely stiff, which makes for good cutting roses.
Mike

Liebeszauber is extremely hardy here and produces loads of well-formed flowers in both spring and fall (yes, summer, too, but in the heat they need to be cut to enjoy). Growth is very vigorous later in the year, with long canes like climbers that will have to be cut back. Cuts last remarkably long, easily a week. Sometimes, the rose is quite fragrant, but generally not. Quite disease resistant. I recommend it highly if you want an easy-care rose. Yes, there are thorns, but be thankful it is vigorous. Mirandy in my experience burns quite readily and is weak stemmed.

Royal William was not a success here in terms of hardiness. Perhaps I should try it again, but I note that Northland has it as Zone 6 (which would be marginal here).