I also remember you mammabird. I usually don't use the forum much in the winter but come back on in the spring just to catch up on what's new etc. I have a retrofit bd as well mine is some modifications on the Tetra through the liner drain (which froze) but I used the cap from it for my drain. I am replacing that this year with the Aqua Art Drain as it sits flatter than mine. Not sure if I understand your "hump" but you usually put the bd in the deepest part of the pond. Avid koi-keepers like to do TPR's--but that also means cutting a hole in the liner. With your pond dimensions you might want two bottom drains one for each deep section. That would mean two bulk heads (I did pipe boot connections) through the liner on the side of the pond wall nearest your settling chamber. My drain has a 4" line reduced to 3" just before it enters the sc followed by a 3" knife valve (there much cheaper!). I take my drain out for winter because of my climate. Water inside pipes in my climate not a good idea. My settling chamber is a liner chamber (kinda like a pond beside the pond)350 gals-my pond is 2500 gals. They say sc should hold at least 10% of your pond volume. I really like this system as use sc for water changes. I have 3-4 ft square matala mats in my chamber which is also my mechanical filitration. Good luck with your new pond and move. Patti

Waterbug guy, First I will talk a little bit about concrete in water. You say it is a myth that concrete in water can kill fish and raise the PH. When concrete first sets up the surface PH is 12.0. Which is the same PH as a drain cleaner called "draino". As it is exposed to the CO2 in the air the PH goes down. But water is a very good leaching agent and so water will continue to try and get the chemicals out of the concrete. So will the PH in the water be raised? If the water has normal PH of 6.5 to 8.5 the answer is yes. The real question should be "how much will it raise it"? That question isn't easily answered as there are a lot of variables. Just to list some the age of the concrete, the condition of the concrete, is the water flowing over the concrete, the natural PH of the water, is the water being changed, and the volume of the water versus the contact area of the concrete. In some cases the rise might be so low as to make it very difficult to measure. But in other cases it can and does raise the PH to 9 to 9.5. At these levels it can and does kill fish. If I remember correctly you have stated that you are a pond contractor. If you are I hope you having started using roofing liner in the ponds that you build. Most of the time a person on this forum is never going to have a problem with roofing liner. Can there be a problem with roofing liner? This should be the question. The answer is yes. The chances that there could be a problem is very low. The largest pond product manufacturer in the US sent out a letter to all their customers a number of years ago. This letter said that all their liner in the future would be tested to be fish safe as they got a batch in that was not. In other words they were selling roofing liner as pond liner. This company had been selling a lot of liner for 10 years before this problem. If it had happen today with the wide use of the internet I would have think that some lawyer would have gotten this information and started a class action lawsuit against them and they would be out of business. The lawyer could easily have sued them not only for the cost of the liner that they had sold but for the cost to replace all those liners in the ponds built with them going back to the first time they sold this liner. The largest liner manufacturer in this country has told me that almost never would you ever have a problem with roofing liner but you might. I think that as a contractor you can't take that chance. If you were unlucky and did have a problem and were sued over that problem the lawyer handling the case would find out that they would sue for every customer that you have that has this liner. In other words you would be out of business. So is roofing liner toxic? No most of the time. But there is a small chance that there maybe a problem. I have only talked about 2 of the 8 things that you listed. I could easily talk about many of the other things listed but my point is this. You listed these things as black and white but they are not black and white. The only thing that is black and white about ponds is that all aquatic life will die. Mike

dang it....I had a really well though out response all done, and my internet explorer crashed. So I'll try again...lol!! First...a few comments regarding how koi ponds compare to aquariums. Normally, aquariums are lightly stocked with small fish. It's really easy to keep the ammonia/nitrite/nitrate cycle operating perfectly in a correctly stocked environment. Same as a rock bottom pond...lightly stocked and properly maintanied it can work. In a pond's bio filter, ammonia is converted to nitrite and then to nitrate. Nitrate is most easily removed froma koi pond by way of regular water changes. Ever try to keep an aquarium with goldfish? Many goldie keepers I know keep no gravel in the tank at all, because of maintenance. That gravel gets really filthy very fast. I had a lovely goldie tank once....and gave it up. the maintenance was a nightmare! I'd rather deal with a huge koi pond any day of the week. Some people are reporting sucess with rock bottom ponds and no maintenance. Again...it is directly related to stocking levels. I hope these ponds continue to perform well for years to come, but for the vast majority of people, they will not. Most watergardeners install their ponds (and rocks) and then run out and buy a bunch of adorable little 5" long koi. The koi grow.....fast. They produce mountains of fish waste, which all gets trapped in the rocks. But because the pond looks clean, the owner is lulled into a false sense of security and does not think that there is a thing wrong, until the fish start dying or the fins start rotting off. Then they do one of two thing....they learn where they went wrong and correct their mistakes, or they just buy new fish (which is unfortunatly what most people do). Matt...you are on the right track with your new pond. You certainly can install your bottom drain now and add the rest of the system later. But instead of using a pipe cap, install a 4" ball valve on the end of the line. The water can't be permitted to sit stagnant in the unused drain line for too long or it will start developing the dreaded hydrogen sulphide gas. Opening that valve every couple of weeks and allowing the water to flow out for a couple of minutes will prevent the problems. I am attaching a link to the Atlanta Koi Club's web site. They have an excellent pdf that explains a lot about how a koi pond works, water quality, stocking levels, how much biofiltration is needed and many other wonderful facts. Cindy

will the sand affect my pond life? Yes, but probably not a lot. Certain kinds of life, animal and plant, will make the sand home if they make it to your pond. What plant life should I add to feed my fish and welcome in other wildlife like frogs and dragonflies? That really depends on the person. I like to add any plant I can and see how it does. It stays if I like it. That's how I learn. So for me I'd try any plant, and I'd try it different ways...in water, in soil, in sun, in shade, etc., to learn how it grows. Duckweed is a plant fish will eat directly, but after they've eaten it all it's gone. So if you want an on going duckweed food source you have to protect some or easier imo is growing it in a separate shallow pond. But a more important food source is all the life in a pond, mainly insects. They eat the plants and the fish eat the insects. So all plants really feed fish indirectly. Dead, rotting plant material feeds insects the best. But many people don't like that in their pond...so it's really best to decide what kind of pond you want...Wildlife Pond, Water Garden or Koi Pond. That determines how plants are used. You can try one and if you don't like it you can change to another pretty easy or some pond in between. the water looks a little murky. (BONUS QUESTION) Is there any way to clean that up? It's pretty simple to clear up water but only after you know what's causing it to be murky which is the complex part. There are lots of filters and methods to removing different things so the filter has to be matched to the stuff being removed. One pretty universal murky clear is a 24/7 drip water change system. A drip emitter runs 24/7 into the pond and an overflow takes away the extra water. I plan on heading over to a local park nearby and yanking out a couple of cattails and whatever else I find interesting, I highly doubt it's illegal and the poor little stream that leads to the enormous carp pond is choking with all the vegetation. (OH! I know that these plants will probably have other bacteria and algae and critters on or in it, is there any way to clean them without killing them? There are chemical baths you can use, including chlorine and similar oxidizers. They aren't super effective imo. The question is do you want to do that or are all these critters something you want? You see this goes back to deciding what kind of pond you want. A Koi Pond owner with thousands of dollars worth of koi would never allow any plant within 10' of their pond. Their focus is koi and the risk of pathogen form plant would be unacceptable. At the other end of the pond spectrum a Wildlife Pond owner would welcome all those "pathogens". It's a matter of perspective. To these pond keepers "pathogen" is just another name for "life". That's what natural ponds are, life. Stuff killing and eating other stuff. I want to make sure the plants are settled before getting fish, but I heard that a certain string? Algae is a pain to get rid of, does that grow in zone 9?) You don't get rid of algae, you control it. Just like you weed a garden. Algae grows in all zones, from the poles to the equator. There are thousands of species. ...since I live in zone 9 in one of the cities that borders the Rio Grande, Does anyone have any recommendations for the type of plants I might want to scavenge for, how to transport and transplant them from the stream into my pond, and what no-no plants I should try to avoid? Giant Reed, Arundo donax, is a spectacular plant you can probably find. It's an aggressive grower, makes bamboo look like Pussy Willow. I don't believe there is such a thing as a no-no plant. They're plants, you're a human. I have to assume you can win any battle. Ponds are just like any garden. If you tend it you win. If you go away and come back in a year the plants win. (If I find any I kind of want some duckweed... is this a no-no plant? Will keeping the growth at bay turn into an overwhelming hassle for my medium-small sized pond?) Depends on how much hassle you consider keeping a pond is. For me it's a joy. And whether your fish.eat it. I want goldfish!! I hear commits are really friendly, but what other species can I add? Can someone supply a list? Oh, and how many can I add? (I was thinking about 6-8 fish total) Common, Comets, Shubunkin, Wakin. The fancy kinds can look a little out of place. I've had some of these because friends need to get rid of "pets" sometimes. They look a little odd to me when mixed with other kinds. Like when you feed them the others swim over fast and the Fantail seems to struggle to swim 10'. But the fancy ones seemed to do fine but need exact protection from streams, skimmers, etc., as they're not strong swimmers.. The Common, Comets and Shubunkin are also often crossed. Like a Comets and Shubunkin to get a Shubunkin with a long tail. Commons get the biggest, more than 12" and over 3' sometimes although these may be koi crosses. (Even numbers so they can have a buddy system, but not like Nohas ark, they can only be friends!! No babies!!... okay maybe a few so I can add them to future smaller water features around the garden...) You can post a sign explaining breeding rules but goldfish are either not very good readers or not very good rule followers (even worst than teenagers). which leads me to the after thought question... Can different species of goldfish mate? I mean.. they are still goldfish... Yes. When different kinds of goldfish breed the result is considered a goldfish too. Goldfish can also breed with koi. I know that bottom feeders won't eat all the gunk that will eventually fill the bottom, (I can't blame them) But are there any fish that I can add that will eat the bottom pellets? (Like catfish maybe, or something cooler/cuter) Pellets, as in sinking food pellets? Goldfish, koi, catfish, pretty much any fish will eat food on the bottom. There are terms like "bottom feeder" but that's just a general type thing. Like catfish will spend most of their time on the bottom but will eat food on the surface just like a goldfish or koi. And they will come a running when they see you just like goldfish and koi. As for gunk...bacteria lives there, bugs too which eat the bacteria, bigger bugs that eat the smaller bugs and fish root around in there looking for bugs to eat. It's a whole cycle thing. Gunk on the pond bottom is basically soil, or stuff on it's way to becoming soil. Nothing removes it completely, just like nothing removes soil completely. Stuff lives in it, eats some growing in it, breaks it down into better and better soil (from a plant's perspective). Oh, and is Walmart a smart place to buy these babies at? (I'm sure most are familiar with the store...) My only other option is PetCo... Are they a good option? I don't want to buy bad fish... but I would feel terrible if I had to take a fish back because it was sick or it got the others sick... There not really anything like a "good" store to by goldfish. Here's how it wroks. The store orders fish from a grower. The grower has a bunch of ponds with different kinds of fish. The grower puts a bunch of fish into a box and sends it to the store. The store dumps the box of fish into a big tank. An employee gets a net and scoops out a few of the the prettier fish and puts these into separate tanks. Like for instance some Shubunkins would go into a tank labeled "Shubunkin $4.95". And some orange and white Comets will often be labeled "Sarasa $4.95" even though they aren't actually Sarasa. The rest in the big tank are labeled "Feeder Goldfish 20 for $1". When customers buy $4.95 fishes the clerks grab a net and scoop a few more nicer looking fish out of the feeder tank and into the $4.95 tanks. People just assume when they see 10 fish in a nice aquarium at eye level that they must be higher quality and healthier fish than the horrible feeder fish tank. It's just marketing and logistics. You can often find very nice looking Shubunkins and Comets in the feeder tank. It just depends on what they get in. Growers don't care since it's just as easy to grow Commons or Comets or Shubunkins. They'll send whatever they have. The fancy goldfish may be shipped in separate containers. This is not to say all fish are healthy. In my experience 50% of feeder fish died in the first 24 hours. And in most stores they also don't last long either. Yes, you can quarantine them, you can treat them for parasites, etc. Depends on the kind of pond you want to keep. Most ponds I've had I only used feeder goldfish. Set up a quarantine tank and buy $10 worth of meds to treat $1 worth of fish...not me. I just put them into the pond and hope for the best. But that's me. I do want to hand feed my fish. I know the risks of them getting hurt by other animals but I have 3 small dogs that scare away all cats and wild animals, but are really just yapping balls of harmless fur. Pretty much all kinds of fish can be trained to be hand fed. Takes them a few times to get the idea but once they do they're trained. The 3 small dogs...I hate to impugn the K9 reputation for diligence but all that yapping..yeah, that's mostly for your benefit. When you're not around and the Herons are having brunch the dogs are really unlikely to do more than blink at the carnage. The Herons aren't hurting anything...it's not like they're doing something horrible like squeezing a squeaky toy. They're just eating all of your fish. Big woop. Now if the dogs happen to hear you at the front door then sure, they'll be off like a rocket to tear that Heron a new beak, jumping through plate glass windows, busting down doors, whatever it takes to impress you and keep those treats flowing.