see here...

In the pot....

I'm assuming with this set up watering isn't going to be difficult to determine when it needs it or not. Seeing as there is nothing to hold the water doing it this way, I could probably water her alot more. I'm going to do this by simply dipping her into a quart container and letting her sit for a few minutes. Any one ever try this out before?

This post was edited by CJ-Speciosa on Fri, Apr 5, 13 at 9:26

Why not just put some peanuts in the bottom to stabilize her? I use the plastic foam they pack electronics in, just break it up, keeps the plant from tipping over in the pot..... sally

What you are doing is the same thing as mounting the Phal. It will need water daily and by moving it every time to water, the roots will not attach to the bottom of the pot.

Yes it can be done and if you don't mind the daily care, it will be fine.

Brooke

Saldut: You can't tell too well from the pic, but it doesn't tip in the pot because the pot is so small and tight. Once it's placed inside, it just leans to one side and it's fine. You can see what this looks like in the very last pic

Brooke: Great! I'm fairly new to orchids so I've never seen/heard about mounting them. And actually, I like to water my plants all the time which is what got me into to trouble with these plants in the first place.

Right now I have one in bark and two in moss. This one will be my only medium free plant. It's also the smallest. I'm learning about the different watering methods with each one. I have a feeling until I get a better feel for how much water the plant draws in the conditions they are currently in, this one will be the easiest to deal with.

Thanks for the responses.

Here is a pic of a Phal. bastianii that has been mounted for several years.

{{gwi:156040}}

Here is an example of a Phal. viridis that only been on a mount for about six months.

{{gwi:156042}}

Mounts duplicate the way they grow in nature but take daily care.

Brooke

Wow! They are really sharp. How do you water those?

With a hose - they think they are getting rained on daily. They get water on the leaves, the roots and if the spikes are short, the blooms.

Brooke

CJ, is the pot unglazed inside & out? Also, do you know about keeping water out of the crowns of Phals?

Brooke, as always, your orchids look good enough to eat, and your photos capture them well. WC8

This post was edited by whitecat8 on Mon, Apr 8, 13 at 5:27

Whitecat: It's not. But it's been completely drying out by the end of the day. The pics aren't the best, but there is plenty of air getting down to the roots.

highjack z6 KY (My Page),
For your mounted orchids, how many times do you mist it every day?

Jujujojo they get watered heavily every morning, no misting involved. When I say heavy water I mean they look like a thunderstorm watered them.

Brooke

Just like they would get watered in the rain forest.

CJ, I don't think its necessary for you to sit the phal in a pot. Why not put it in a basket with some sphag and hang it somewhere? Having the plant loose in the pot can damage roots each time the plant is moved.

Mounting, as Brooke did allows the plant to attach to the piece of wood. You will notice there is moss under the roots which help keep a bit of moisture, humidity around the root area. The roots are stable and are not damaged when the mount is moved.

Please keep in mind differing environments-greenhouse vs house. Brooke is able to douse her plants and raise the humidity around them all.

The Phal can remain in the pot, but I would add something for the roots to attach. Even a small piece of driftwood.

Growing in NY, I found my conditions too dry to mount any orchids with success. The humidity in Winter was just too dry and I did not want to be watering plants every day. In Florida, I will probably mount a few however, I do not want to worry about leaving my plants unwatered for a week or longer.

Brooke, I agree with WC. Absolutely beautiful!

Jane

Brooke,

What kind of string do you use to tie your orchids to the mount?

CJ you can use fishing line (what I have used in the past). Others, even myself once, have used nylon panty hose since it will eventually degrade. Miniature plants can be adhered with hot glue (given a minute to cool off, of course).

I use fishing line but have also used embroidery thread. If you are new to mounting the thread is very easy to use because it is easier to tie than fishing line.

Brooke

CJ,

I grow inside during winter and have @7-8 mounted plants, 3-4 of which are phals. You need a little dedication, in my conditions I have to mist most of my mounts daily and dunk the vandaceous types in a bucket of water almost every morning. Everything gets dunked at least once per week. When the weather warms, it is a lot easier outside where I can use the hose and not worry about the mess on the patio.

Fishing line here also.

Good luck,

Bob

Embroidery thread.....that sounds like it's alot easier to work with then fishing line.....

I just picked up some airplants at the philadelphia orchid show last week and I used fishing line to tie them to the trunk of a corn plant. What a pain in the butt.

I ended up using this girl as an experiment. As you can see her roots were damaged from the rotten moss ball she was in and the two lower leaves are having an issue taking up water because of it.

I planted her in Al's gritty mix......any thoughts on this? I wanted to see how she reacted.

I used to do bonsai and used basically the same mix for them.

You can grow a Phal in anything as long as you don't over water it. If someone likes to water, this mix wouldn't be the answer. If you are going to grow them outside in summer, this mix wouldn't be the right choice. If you are growing in a very dry environment, this mix would permit you to keep the Phal moist longer.

Again, as long as the grower understands the appropriate time to water, you can grow them in anything.

Brooke

Thanks Brooke.

I'm coming to understand this whole watering scheme. I'm actually surprised how much water this mix holds.

Why do you say it wouldn't be good for outside summertime growing?

This stuff is like making a cake and there are many awful cake cooks out there.
You are trying to emulate the conditions where Phalaenopsis are growing in the wild. They are growing on a rock or on a tree with the roots running along the surface of said rock or tree.
So the orchid gets wet if it rains and at night when the temperature drops (dew) and because the daily temperature range is something like Min 20C to max 30C the orchid gets dry between periods of wetness.
Look at those leaves, they resemble succulent leaves so if dryness sets in for a few days the plant will be fine.
Here, Sydney, Australia, Phalaenopsis are regarded as difficult, so much so that you almost hear the groans when the OS Committee announced the growing competition plant would be a Phalaenopsis.
I handed out the 40 plants and a year later most were dead.
Take notice of what Master Cake Maker Brooke is saying.

Here's where it gets interesting, CJ:

Brooke, I would defer to your experience with this mix but your comment does give me pause. Why DO you say this mix is NOT suited for outdoors? Moisture retentive media (promix, straight sphag, this) is best suited for situations when they dry out quickly, and outside during the summer things dry out VERY quickly.

And I couldn't disagree more with your assertion that simply knowing when to water is the key, and would love to hear your rational. Media is specifically tailored to your environment. Moisture retentive media in cooler temps and lower light for plants like phals is normally certain death because they just don't dry out fast enough, and has nothing to do with knowing when to water. Think about it: would you try growing a phal in promix in a north window during the winter? Your logic fails there, and over the decade that I have posted here there have been many questions asking "why won't my plant dry out? I'm really worried because I haven't watered in weeks"

So to sum: I'm very perplexed by your comments, and would love to hear your explanations further.

And I guess since I'm at it, I really don't think this media was a good idea for you: too much moisture in not enough light. But I shall leave it at that and speak on that no further. :)

P.S. Thank you GW for the edit feature :)

This post was edited by terpguy on Wed, Apr 17, 13 at 22:42

Cool temps, low light is death for most orchids. If you increase the light or warm the room, the plant would dry out. If the plant is dormant and not growing it will not dry out unless you adjust the temps.

I grew Phals in sphag while in NY without any problems. I actually preferred it to bark. My grow area was very bright but winter temps low. By adjusting my watering during the winter months and increasing light using CFL lamps, my Phals made it through winter even with low temps. Other orchids handle the cooler temps better and would do fine. However, some dends had problems but they were kept very dry and grown in large bark.

It is tricky and takes experience. A grower needs time to learn their growing environment and the needs of the plants they grow.

I agree with Brooks assertion regarding knowing when to water. Of course, if a plant never dries out something is terribly wrong. Gritty mix is the wrong mix for large rooted orchids. It won't dry out nor provide enough air around the roots. Might work for fine rooted orchids, but Phals will struggle with it even with good light.

The OP has good light. Her Phals are actively growing and it is springtime. All optimum conditions for her plants. Her Phals might do alright in gritty mix in a clay pot. Don't like plastic with a fine medium. But, she must watch her watering using such a fine mix.

Outside is a very different situation and I again agree with Brooke the mix will be problematic. High humidity over the summer months will keep the mix damp. If exposed to rain, even worse.

I would strongly recommend removing the Phal from the mix and repotting in a medium bark with some perlite or sphag mixed in. I have found that works well even if the grower tends to over/underwater. Leaves enough air spaces and the roots will do well.

Cool room in winter, 4 yr old Phal grown in straight sphag:
{{gwi:156046}}

Phal growing in small bark and sphag
{{gwi:156049}}

A group of plants in January. SW window but very cool temps at night. I grew in plastic pots with mostly sphag/small bark.
{{gwi:145690}}

Although the room was cool (low 60's) the light was high (notice how close the phals are to the large windows.) The room was also drafty thus good air movement. Watering was done very carefully. The Phals would dry out but slowly. No misting, no watering until I felt they were totally dry.
Jane

Dang terp, stirring up a bit more conversation/controversy for the second time in 6 months ;-). We need it around here occasionally.

I grow inside during winter and outside the rest of the year and to me it seems my orchids need watered more often when summering outside than when inside, so maybe a more moisture retentive mix would be beneficial for those summer months?, but then I'd have to deal with the winter low temps and slow drying issues whi9chb are hard enough when using spagh, IMO.

I do think Brook is right as far as "generally" your watering habits make the biggest difference as far as being successful with growing phals/orchids. Of course light, media, fert and temps make a difference, but you can have all of that right and then muck it all up by messing up watering.

I think Nick even touched on this in another thread where he said he leans towards the heavy handed water loving types and/or mounts them because of his watering habits. Nick just plays it different, instead of adjusting his watering to the plants needs, he adjusts/chooses his plants based on his heavy handed watering needs.

Getting spikes is another story, but without good growth the good spikes aren't going to happen anyhow.

Good discussion,

Bob

Well Terp don't be perplexed by my comments, read what I said, not what you thought I said.

I said - if you like to water, this mix is NOT the answer. I assumed people would realize it holds water for a long time because of my previous statement.

I then said I wouldn't want that mix if I had it outside in the summer. That is simply my opinion, nothing more, nothing less. A bonsai pot is very shallow, orchid pots are much deeper so will stay wet for a much longer time. I can control the water from a hose but not falling from the sky.

How do I tailor the media to my environment in a g/h? During the winter I can go 8-10 days and never see the sun with the heater running 24/7, temps between 60 to 62. I'm thrilled when the light increases slightly to stop the heat from running and the $$$$$$ flying out the vent.

For my Phals I use either seedling bark or sphag/tree fern and depending on the size of the pot I can go over two weeks and never water them. It IS like growing in a north window in promix from Dec through half of March for me. I had much more control over my orchids when I grew them inside, under lights.

I did not advise Cjspeciosa to put the Phal in this mix, it was already in it. I gave my opinion about the mix in various situations. I did not advise anyone else to use the mix and gave my best answer if you did - make sure it dries out before you water again.

Terp I'm sorry if my answers don't meet your criteria as to what Cjspeciosa should do but I tried to answer the specific question with my opinion. I'm sure your answer will be given as much consideration as mine.

Brooke

I'm taking it out.....back to the bark. I'm going to use the oncidiums instead. I'll plant one in bark and one in the gritty mix and see how they fair.

Thoughts?

Have not supplied any input thus far, but read occasionally with popcorn in hand :) In my experience oncidiums are pretty difficult to kill....had one survive 4 months with no roots and still threw out some healthy pups the following growing season. The person caring for it at the time thought a dark, cold corner would suffice.....There may still be differences though in the end between the two.

Thanks for the input! Certainly good to know. I guess I have a fighting chance with them then.......

Can't help it, Bob. Its in my nature :) Nothing wrong with a healthy debate.

Brooke, my reading is fine, thank you. No offense was intended and my post was worded as a strong intellectual disagreement/debate, not a personal attack. I'm sorry if it was received any other way. But your advise was incomplete at best, and ambiguous and misleading at worst, which is very out of character for your usually precise advise. Certainly a statement as sweeping and impactful as "I don't believe this is suitable for outdoors" should be qualified beyond "thats just my opinion" when educating someone. I note CJ asked the same question before I did. So s/he caught that as well (sorry CJ). Thus as a biological educator at heart and a number of times in professional practice, I had to speak up for clarification.

I also note that I in no way said you told him to use the mix. Contrary to what you have asserted, you did NOT discourage its use for orchids, and even gave an implicit nod for its potential use:

"You can grow a Phal in anything as long as you don't over water it. If someone likes to water, this mix wouldn't be the answer."

What about someone who doesn't like to water? It'd be a good mix?

Additionally, to the general forum:

As someone who grows outdoors in MD summer humidity, I must say I don't understand this assertion that humidity will create problems for fine mixes. Humidity has never suppressed my plants drying out, even plants in fine mixes. I still wind up watering every day or every other day, fine or coarse media. So from my experience in CJ's zone, that argument holds no water...no pun intended! Humidity suppresses evaporation, but theres only so much it can do when exposed to 100F weather and direct sunlight.

Finally:
No one factor is more important than another in growing. It reminds me of the old story of body organs debating which one was the most important: stomach, liver, colon, anus. If any one of them stops working you're dead. This assertion that "Everything else could be right, but if you don't water properly your plant is dead" is technically true, but completely ignores the bigger picture and is a very myopic point of view. Watering is the trickiest to figure out, takes the longest of all cultural problems to work out (burn damage shows in one hour, cold damage a day or two, watering can take months), and is the most likely of cultural requirements to go wrong, but is not the most important.

Everything else can be right, but if you grow your plant in too much light it's dead. Everything can be right but if you grow your plant too warm without a cool off at night to destress it's dead (DRACULAS/MASDIES ANYONE?). So yes technically it is correct but misses the point entirely.

CJ, is your head spinning yet?

This post was edited by terpguy on Thu, Apr 18, 13 at 20:57

The only problem you and I have is I write short concise answers to a question and you like to write short novel. We just have different styles.

You didn't like my answers so I responded. I'm done responding because I am not going to get into all of the different scenarios that may arise, I will wait for the question and if I have an opinion, I will give it.

Brooke

Our disagreement here is less a matter of style and more a matter of substance. Sometimes short and pithy doesn't convey what needs to be conveyed and can engender confusion and misinformation, as seen here.

Wow....I replied to this thread and my reply never made it to the forum? Are either of you a mod? Because my response was completely censored. Don't like that at all.....

This is the reason why I stopped visiting forums. I come here for information from people who are much smarter and more experienced then I when it comes to these life forms.

I can do without the arguing and bickering. It's childish and pointless. These threads have a way of turning into a pissing contest or a "Mine is bigger then yours" type back and forth.

Please don't do it in my thread, because I could care less about who thinks they know more then the next person. I'm not impressed.

Arguing on internet forums is pointless and a waste of time.

Thanks.

Forgot to ask what are the kinds of the two oncidiums you have? Curious :) Have you begun the experiment yet?

It is not your thread....From post 1 "your" thread belongs to everyone.

And some of us do know more than others posting here but we do not want to see posters graded as on another forum.

There is the little problem of climates and micro climates. The USA is a very big place with diverse climates so that is why you will get what appears as conflicting advice purely because growing conditions are different.

Very strange. No mods on this forum, CJ and usually a very friendly helpful place. I don't understand why terpguy is being so argumentative.

We all have our styles and live in different areas of the country. There's no perfect science with growing anything.

Brooke is a experienced grower and I would take her advice at any time.

I'm just a hobbyist who's been growing for a while. I also write too much. Brooke is to the point which makes following her advice easier and clearer. I talk too much!

Terp is apparently having a bad day! ;-)

Jane

Then there are people who swear by water culture which defies everything logical.

Personally I agree with Brooke ( about a few things said above) and Jane. The sad truth is that there are so many variables you will have to go thru some trial and error to know what the right answer is. I find that even between the phals I have at home, there are differences in what they like.

Some store bought orchid mixes are similar to gritty mix just with a much larger particle size. Lava rock, coarse perlite, charcoal, pine bark. The biggest problem would be getting a plant in decline to adapt to a new media, plus you will never know if the plant died because of the media or because it was going to die no matter what.

Lumpy: I'm wondering that about some of my phals that were in moss. They've since been repotted into bark and some of them I dont' think are taking in enough water.

arthurm: Yes, I get it, there are alot of variables and conditions. You all know that, even more reason not to argue like children.

Jane: Quick and to the point is more my style. No fluff.

Auron: The two Oncs are Bllra. Diana Dunn "Newberry" and the other is Heaven scent "Redolence"

Lets not be sensitive people. I've been perfectly civil. I merely strongly questioned Brookes advice. God forbid we actually disagree here in Lollipop Land *rolleyes* Having an opinion, being passionate, and disagreeing is not the same as bickering/being childish or having a bad day.

We all have different experiences, and as mentioned come from all over the globe: I have a decade of orchids plus horticulture degree and 7 years professional tropical horticultural experience and a master's degree in biology (not listing my credentials! merely illustrating my experience for the purpose of making this point.), Jane about a decade orchid growing IIRC, I THINK Brooke is at the 7-10 year mark but am not certain, and Arthur has more experience and institutional knowledge than any of us combined. Because of this wide ranging experience we certainly aren't going to always agree. So let's put on our adult pants and not be afraid to actually discuss orchids rather than being hypersensitive if someone disagrees with us. Because I'm certainly not afraid to speak up, and I expect others to step up to me the same way. No one has a monopoly on knowledge and experience, so let's not act like it.

This post was edited by terpguy on Sat, Apr 20, 13 at 21:47

Does anyone remember when invectives and names actually WERE thrown around here, maybe 7-9 years ago? Arthur?

CJ, I always soak the bark over night or even longer. I have a bucket soaking now and its 5 days. Repotting tomorrow.

Jane

Silva Orchids in Neptune NJ is having a culture workshop and demonstrations on May 4th . They will repot 2 plants for free, pot and media included. They also host the Shore Orchid fest in June.

You might want to start marking some space around your windows.

terp,

I too will step up and 'discuss' whenever I feel the need. We need excitement, heated discussion on this forum occasionally. It's part of what makes life more interesting and you can actually learn from it if you don't take it personally.

CJ,

What's this 'my thread' BS? Maybe from now on we should not reply to your threads for fear you may not approve???

Bob

Thanks Jane.

Lumpy, Are you from the area? Neptune is only 20 minutes from me. Thanks for the heads up. I'm definitely going to check that out!!

Agreed, it needs to be mixed up a tiny bit. Theres no reason this couldn't be like other forums in the sense of expertise and wide breadth of discussions (