YES,Yes,Yes, there will be oil inside the crankcase of the engine! Thats how the engine gets its lubrication--from the oil in the gasoline! Not to worry. If it runs and doesn't go "bang, or clank", and keeps running, you are doing it right!
AND!!
Do not go to 50:1! use the mix that is reccommended by the manufacturer! 50:1 just might make it go Bang! And, oil in the other parts is normal. Follow directions and everything will be alright.
Those 2 cycle engines are a whole different ball game from 4 cycle engines. $ cycle engines have an oil pan, or sump, much like your average auto engine. The oil goes in there and gets splashed all around inside and lubes all the moving parts. A 2 cycle has no sump, but the area where the connecting rod is set on the crankshaft gets its oil from the oil/gas mixture which goes in there before it gets up in the combustion chamber! And also lubes the piston as it slides up and down.
Hope this helps you to underestand the differences.
Rusty J.

Thanks Rustyj14
Live and learn!!! What do you mean about don't use 50:1? I though that's what everyone trying to tell me!!

So oil in the mix actually separate out inside the crankcase and lubricate the engine. That is why there is no need to put excess oil in the mix. Oil will collect in the engine and it's all good?

Thanks

If you use a high quality oil 40:1 or 50:1 will not be a problem. I run 50:1 in all my 2 cycle stuff with Amsoil Saber and it works just fine.

Kyle

'I open the valve cover first time today. To my surprise, I see oil inside the push rod area'

Is this a 4-cycle or what???? I don't know of any 2-cycles with valve covers and pushrods.

Hi Saxman1
Yes it is a 4 cycle. Very similar to the 4Mix of Stihl. It has the whole works!!! I am very surprised to see so much oil. I think Weed Cutter in this forum told me this before, Thanks.
Hi Hawkdriver, if oil mix type of engine always have oil in crankcase, I think I am convinced to use the recommended ratio. Someone told me it is particularly important not to put too much oil in this and 4Mix type of engine because the valve is more prone to deposit than just a simple 2 cycle.

That make me wonder about the wisdom of some people sticking with 2 cycle engine if it is oil mix type. Please tell me more. I am eager to learn, a bit stubborn!!! but will come around!!!! If I offended anyone, sorry!!

Many thanks for all your patients

"I am eager to learn"

http://www.southernskies.net/page_info/runningtwostrokeengine.html

Somebody clue me in, as I am very confused. Why are we worrying about a 32/1 or a 50/1 fuel oil ratio if this is a 4 cycle engine, and why are we talking about a 2 cycle engine when it has valve covers, valves, etc.?

I just visited the web site of the manufacturer of this blower, and this engine seems to be a sort of 2 cycle/4 cycle hybrid, utilizing something they refer to as a "power chamber" to get a supercharging effect. It is supposed to be as clean running as a 4 cycle and uses the oil mixed with the fuel feature of a 2 cycle.

The website recommends the use of their own brand of oil at a 50 to 1 ratio. This engine has been out for several years, but this is the first I have heard of it. It is so different from the usual 2 cycle engine that I would think that it would have an engine life experience totally unrelated to the others.

"Do you usually see oil inside the engine crankcase even running at 50:1 ratio? If so, why?"

1) The carburetor atomizes the fuel/oil mixture which enters the crankcase.
2) In the crankcase the fuel tends to vaporize, the heavier oil tends to condense and adhere to the metal surfaces.
3) The fuel vaporization is not 100%, neither is the oil condensation. Equilibrium is established between the oil condensing and a "washing effect" as fuel is acting as a solvent back on the oil. An easier way to think of this is that the fuel flies through the engine whereas the oil just crawls.

Major factors affecting the amount of oil in the engine include engine temperature, throttle setting/engine load, weight (viscosity) of the base oils, and the concentration of oil in the fuel mixture. This last factor is the one most easily controlled by the equipment operator. A higher concentration of oil will lead to a heavier lubricating film in the engine. In my mind the correct balance point is enough oil to provide ample lubrication without going to excess which unnecessarily leads to excessive deposits. Fortunately I believe there is a fair overlap between these points. The overlap accounts for many people using 50:1 or higher and having no problems and others using 32:1 or lower and continuing to lead a normal life.

The Shindaiwa C4 IS a 4-cycle engine. As yungman said, it's very much like the Stihl 4mix: it has no sump with separate engine oil, and it uses an gas:oil mix just like small 2-strokes.

People tend to think that oiling schemes are only related to the firing cycle of an engine, but that's not the case. There are _many_ large 2-strokes that have full sumps (industrial, marine, truck, and locomotive), and a few 4-strokes that burn a gas:oil mix. I think r/c airplanes were the first to widely use this latter scheme, but they've been doing it for at least 25 years or more. It's not new, and it does work very well. There are also small-equipment 4-cycles with true sumps that use regular motor oils. Honda and Robin are two examples of this.

I would think there should definitely oil up in the valvetrain area, yungman. Ditto for the crankcase. Unlike the 2-stroke engines, 4-strokes don't send their combustion fuel through the crankcase - it just goes through the carb, intake, past the intake valve, and directly into the combustion chamber. These "4-mix" engines send fuel mix to the valvetrain and crankcase in a separate lubricating process than the fuel that goes to the intake for combustion purposes. There is a separate channel that meters a small amount to these areas, and so it's not like large volume with full induction forces swooshing through there. So I'm sure there is some amount of buildup, which is by design.

Hey guys
Really appreciate for all the feedbacks. I apologize for all the questions I asked on different posts over and over again. I guess I just have to see it myself to learn. This make me feel much better about 2 cycle engine.
Question is: Is the C4/4Mix engine more critical to deposits that can foul valves and HAVE to stick to 50:1 or even leaner to ensure clean running. One person in another forum actually suggested that and he is a Stihl service guy.

Again please keep giving me your opinions.

Thanks

Since we now know what we're talking about thanks to MattV, I'd say yes, use the recommended oil at the recommended ratio. Since we have a true 4-cycle with poppet valves, excessive or incorrect oil could very well foul them.

When not being replaced by running the fuel will eventually evaporate and leave the oil behind so there will always be a film of oil. Using the super rich 32/1 mix may leave more behind.

Just a note for cheaters. You know, those folks who raw gas a motor intended for fuel mix. After sticking the thing they put mix in the tank and claim they didn't screw up and want warranty. Looking to find that oil film on internal parts is a major way of finding out the cheats.

Hi Navada Walrus
Good to hear from you.
I decided to take the muffler out of my Echo HS151 hedge trimmer and look at the exhaust port. I can feel the oil with my finger, not dripping but definitely have some. The crown of the piston above the ring is a little brownish. I ran it at 32:1, my take is it's too rich!!

I wouldn't worry much about a little brown above the top ring, below would mean wrong type of oil, too much or bad fuel.

I still have a problem with folks going the 32/1 ratio when using the correct oil. I won't kick much about going one step and using 40/1 but 32/1 is just silly, un-needed and possibly problematic.

Oil thickens the fuel mix. Yes I realize this is only a minor amount but when you consider the size of the jets in the carb and the lean jetting in low emission engines you are risking more in fuel lean out with too much oil then you gain advantage in more lubrication. Heat kill these things faster then anything.

I've talked about this in the past but several years ago we did engine destruction tests at an Echo school. One of the engines was ran with no oil. This was a new but older model with fully adjustable carb. It was set overich and ran at WOT for 45 minutes with no oil. It never sputtered and upon dis-assembly only minor damage was found. The combination of cooling from over rich fuel setting and a cool test day kept it from destroying itself. Mess around with too much oil and you risk too little fuel getting into the engine and overheating an engine that is already running hot due to lean emission jetting.

This does require owners to do or have more maintenance performed to keep the thing living. The carb is critical on this list. Echo recomends carb rebuilds every year for home users and twice a year for commercial users. This is not just to maintain emission standards but to assure the carb is delivering enough fuel to live the engine. Cars have computers to change fuel air mixtures to optimal levels as conditions change. As of yet it is doubtful L&G equipment owners are willing to pay another 500 bucks for a computer controlled engine management system so as owners we all have to accept what we are dealt until a better answer can be found. Mix the fuel and maintain them as the manufacture says to do.

Nevada_Walrus wrote: "This does require owners to do or have more maintenance performed to keep the thing living. The carb is critical on this list. Echo recomends carb rebuilds every year for home users and twice a year for commercial users. This is not just to maintain emission standards but to assure the carb is delivering enough fuel to live the engine."
Questions:
1) My Redmax BCZ2400S two-stroke owner's manual doesn't say anything about carb rebuild intervals. Of course it has no mixture adjustments but runs beautifully now. Should I assume that I should rebuild the carb once/year like Echo recommends?
2) My two Echo tools are older units and have adjustments for hi- and low-speed mixture. If I can keep the mixture safe with those adjuster screws, then do I still need to rebuild the carb or can/should it wait until I run out of adjustment?

With the older fully adjustable non emission engines we always set them to just starting to 4 stroke when not under work load. Line trimmers would have the line at full extension but not actually triming. With those older units i see no reason to deviate from that. I always considered the carb needing rebuilding when the high needle needed to be opened more the 1/2 turn beyond normal.

Echo is the only one I know of with those recomendations on rebuilding the carb on emission engines. I like going by their recomendations because to me they are not only speaking of maintaining emissions but living the engine. All of us who work on these things for a living have far to many times seen the results on diaphragms by todays fuel and the resulting engine failures.

Echo also has a far more complicated proceedure for making adjustments on those carbs with removable limiter caps. Thing is, when the carb is clean and with new diaphragms, thier proceedure works better then anything I've done just adjusting by the old fashioned method of going by ear.

To me Echo just takes this stuff a bit more serious then the rest and it works. I'll buy that.

No!! I won't be doing 32:1 anymore after seeing both pieces of my toy have excess oil!! I think I will put a touch over 50:1 ( just to be stubborn!!!!....just kidding!!) a few drops over maybe!! I am going to go back to Echo Power Blend....Any objection? Anyone have experience on Pennzoil air cool. No body talk about this oil but the RC world did test on deposit and Pennzoil is one of the best???? Anyway, I don't want to do oil anymore!!!

Holy!!!! We need to rebuilt carb on all equipments every year? My Honda trimmer which is a 4 cycle do not have any instruction on this. Is the 4 cycle any different?
What is the cost of rebuilt a carb, what does this involve? For the new carb without adjustment, only thing is to replace the jets? Any instruction I can buy to do the rebuild myself?

On another subject, I read in RC universe forum. Do not WOT to run out of gas in oil mix exgine because it will leave the inside dry of oil and the next time you refill and start, it might hurt the engine. I don't agree because I did exactly this, I ran my C4 blower out of gas and open the valve cover which I discover the excess oil before I post this thread!! Anyone have any opinion?

Thanks, N_W. That's the general mixture setting guideline I've always followed, too. I'd rather be safe than sorry, and I know things tend to lean out when under load as the vacuum in the carb venturi drops with load. I do note in the parts list for my Redmax that they show a carb rebuild kit. I should probably order a couple and put them to good use over the winters. Yungman, I'm pretty sure the rebuilds on these engines are very simple. I wouldn't sweat it too much. But then again you did purchase from a dealer, so you can certainly take advantage of the service they offer. I would not want to try to rebuild a carb on a big-box cheapie trimmer, though. They are definitely not designed to be worked on. The way I see it, I've probably got 30 years of yardwork left in me (maybe more, who knows?), and my power tools could be the last ones I ever need to buy (unless two-cycle oil goes completely out of production!).

If you do them yourself the kits are generally under 10 bucks. Unless the carb has suffered old or bad fuel, dirt or other fuel contamination, you most times can just replace the diaphragm/gasket parts in the kit. Not to difficult if paying attention to where the pieces go when dis-assembly. The gasket and diaphragms having a proper alignment and if backwards to each other will cause problems. In most cases there is a gasket and diaphragm working together at each point and their relationship in which goes first is critical so watch for that when taking apart. Lay them out in order as you go for re-assembly reference.

The 4 strokers are still using a diaphragm carb just the same as the 2 strokes. They work just the same. They will have different jetting for the particular engine but if wanting to keep them in tip top shape they should be treated all the same.

Engines with float carbs don't use diaphrams to meter fuel so they aren't nearly as picky unless they have been subjected to old, bad or contaminated fuel. Those diaphragms found on hand held carbs must flex with every piston stroke, figure the math on that. The diaphrams tend to stiffen up with time with todays toxic fuel which is that way for emission formulation. Float carbs meter fuel through simple suction through the jets and as long as not fouled by poor fuel condition don't need much attention.

One final not, when freshioning up your diaphragm carb, make sure the gasket between it and the block is in good shape, not torn or ripped. Sometimes happens when removing the carb. Replace if in any question and make sure alignment of fuel pump impulse hole is correct.

I corresponded in another forum. Before storage, idle to empty, put a few drops of oil in the carb and pull a few times to replenish the oil inside and put it away. Would that work and make the carb last longer?

Thanks Navada Walrus
You are of big help. That I can do, I work on cars before, hopefully it won't be too difficult.
Now it's time for me to stop the talking and do the walking!!! time to do some trimming and mowing.

Last question, I have bought a bottle of each Echo Power Blend, Stihl HP Ultra, Amsoil Saber, Pennzoil air cool and last but not the least Shindaiwa One. All new, un-opened yet!!! Which one should I use for just normal 50:1 mix( maybe few drops extra!!!!)??? Not trying to start a oil question again, I have all these, which one first???? Too many option is not a good thing!!!

Yungman, In my experience you are worrying about this way too much.

I have a 15+ year old cheapie weedeater brand trimmer (probably the least expensive at the time) that has run off the same fuel as my lawnboy(s), which until this season was 32:1 with Lawnboy oil.

This trimmer was used semi-commercially for 3 or so years. The trI had the muffler off a year or two ago, and it had very little carbon build up, as in a couple of speckles. There was no noticeable damage to piston, and the thing still runs like new. The bump string feed no longer works, but what can you expect?

I run 32:1 in the trimmer (and other stuff) simply because my Lawnboys require it. I use Mobil 2T these days per recommendations of others, the lack of "stink" and its wild popularity in Motocross circles.

In my opinion, run any of those oils that you have and don't worry a lick about it. As long as you treat them right, those 2-cycle engines internal components will easily outlast the rest of the tool.

Yungman, you mentioned on another post that you use
very little fuel and in order to keep it fresh, was
mixing it in a quart container. Well, those 5 brands
of oil you mention will require 62.5 gallons of fuel,
if mixed at 50:1, (if they are quart bottles). That should last you a very long time. Also, someone here mentioned that the Mobil 2T has a shelf life,(I don't recall what that was). Perhaps some of the others do tool. Besides, it was mentioned that Mobil 2T
is no longer being produced. So I would recommend that
you use that one up first.

I guess I have to rephrase my question. I am going to use one only, I have bought all these brand, out of those which one should I stay with and forget about the others.

Actually, I don't even like to try Mobil 2T, I saw wet plug, excess carbon in muffler and exhaust port after one tankful. Echo is a lot cleaner even after 3 tankful. Maybe it work better with 44:1, but I am not going to try it anymore. I fact I already pour the remaining oil/gas mix into my old car already. I did not even list Mobil in my list. I already using Echo at about 44:1 for now and see what you guys say about the other that I have.
Thanks

You may have no problem with any of them. The thing to consider is at what risk level do you want to accept.

None of the power equipment companies actually make their own oil, but they to do require specifications for what they want for the oil companies to supply. Those specs are to protect air cooled outdoor power equipment engines.

If any of the oils not made specifiacally for a power equipment company have on their labels something like good for all 2 strokes or good for water cooled 2 strokes or water cooled motorcycles or boats, they are compromise oils. Will fit oils and may not provide the best protection.

Thanks Navada_Walrus
I definitely not going to use any of the general purpose oil. I read about the difference between TC3 and air cool oil. I only consider JASO FC or FD. For now, unless I here some good suggestion, I am using Echo Power Blend. The C4 blower difinetely idle smoother with Echo!!! Don't ask me why, Gas for all the mixes are from the same can of Chevron super I got a month ago with Stabil. The plug looked cleaner with Echo. If Echo is not better, at least I can say my blower like Echo better!!!
Thanks

Which one of those oils smells the best?

What!!!!?????

I know what you are getting at!!!

Actually I don't like the smell of Mobil 2T, it smell plastic in the bottle, smell kind of bug me when I ran it. I don't smell anything on Echo. I think I am going to stay with Echo for now, never hear anything bad about Echo oil. Notice everything about Echo are very good, not the best but can't go wrong. Nobody swear by their stuff, nobody swear at their stuff either!!

I was going to say something like , if you don't like the smell of burnt oil/fuel/rubber you ain't no gear head but then realized a lot of you posting here aren't. You're simply product users and nothing wrong with that.

yungman, your findings with Echo oil running better doesn't surprise me. The exact formulas that is in any oil versus the fuel you get locally can effect engines different, and other engines may like something else.

Back in the 70's I once bought gas from one of those local cheapy gas stations for my 327 Camero and dang if it didn't run better then the name brands.The only thing I can figure is this. Here in Vegas all of our gas comes to us via pipeline from S. Calif. and is basic California grade reformulated fuel. At the tank farm north of town all the different brands have their own tanks and add thier own proprietary additives before trucking to the stations. Whatever this local cheapy chain added was just liked by that 327.

How your local fuel reacts to the addition of Echo oil is probably an equal possible factor as the oil on its own. The final package is what your engine likes.

Amen to that, the gas station is walking distance, can't ask for more, Echo works, so Echo it is. I swear it actually clean up my plug. Can't go wrong with Echo!! It's time for me to stop the talking and do the walking( mowing/trimming in this case!!!!).
Thanks for all the help. Merry Christmas....I hope I don't have to say Happy Holiday instead!!!!!! Living in People's Republic of Kalifornia, you have to be careful what you say!!!!

yungman, if the owners of this board say we can't use the word Christmas I'll burn my registration.

Where bouts in the RoK are you from. I grew up in the SanBernardino area. Left for Vegas in 81. Now I'm just outside the Vegas valley in another world called Boulder City. The Dam Town ;-)

I am not that religious, but I think it is way overboard for people to complain about Christmas, it's CHRISTMAS for cry out loud!!!I am in San Jose area. About 40 miles south of San francisco. I use to live in San Francisco. Am I glad to move out of there.

I was through San Jose once, maybe 30 years back. Didn't see enough to form an opinion but I can understand getting away from crowded Frisco. That's why I left California for Vegas. Vegas was still relatively small in 81. Population there is now 4 times the 81 count.

Out here in Boulder City its still a small town community with a strickly enforced growth rate so we don't have the big town problems. At the same time we have the largest city in sq miles of any in Nevada.

Sounds like a nice and peaceful place for retirement also. Not too small that you don't have anything, not too big that your have all the disadvantage. Did the real estate hype few years ago affect your town?

BTW I went on your web. The article you wrote on becoming a equipment servicing person is very interesting. Lot of people think only about money, that's when things go wrong. It always start out sounding very easy, as you get into the business, it's a different story.
I am an electronic engineer by trade. I got into it because it was and still is my passion and hobby. People think it is a good money making career. But they don't know the other side of it. 50 60 hours week, technology always changing, have to keep learning new things, I mean drastically new things. It is slave labor. If you are young, it is ok, but as you age, it is harder and harder to keep up. In the 90's when high tech was hot, everybody get into it, now it is hard time. I always advice people, go for the career you like, not the one that is hot and earn money. 40 hours a week for the next 30 years is a long time.
Merry Christmas

Well its not big enough to have everything but Henderson [between here and Vegas] does have everything and is only 15 minutes away. Vegas only another 15 minutes.

Real estate hype? New home sales are way down as they are across the country. Apparently its worse here on the average but they say Vegas stands to recover quicker then most due to all the new jobs being created with new Hotel/Casino's being built. Of course another 911 could once again put the gaming industry in the pooper as it did on 911 because folks were afraid to travel. Took a couple of years to climb out of it last time.

Yeah, spending decades doing something you don't like is a real bummer. I stumbled into this after doing many other things and found I liked repairing stuff. I would advise others starting out to find what they like and then find an outlet that has all the benefits including retirement though. Its tough in this business to find that and I wasn't smart enough to do it. They're out there though but you have to play the game and may take a while to get in. I woke up to it too late. Government based is the way to go in this business. The school district is the # one source around here. They pay as well as any private business and have all the benefits. Just some advise for newbies to the business to heed.

Hi Navada Walrus
I think Los Vagas area real estate is going to be good. Both LV and Pheonix AZ show highest % increase in population. It's the jobs that attrack people. They are going to recover and go up again. Did you invest in any?

I graduated with a Chemistry degree. I went into it when I was young and didn't know better. I didn't like it at all. I deliver pizza for a while instead of getting a job in the Chemistry. I just concentrated on finding something I like before diving into a career. I was fortunate enough to find it...electronics. I became an engineer, been in the field ever since. Yes it is important to find a job you like, never too late. Now a days, I am willing to take a pay cut just to go into new technology to learn. Still like it after all these years.

Merry Christmas