To address paulns original propostion, I don't think it's a question that has a definitive answer without clarification.....what is "old-time gardening"? How far back does one go? And there are MANY definitions of organic gardening depending on one's philosophy, so which one are we going to agree to use? A lot of the previous comments are valid in a generalized form. The use of manufactured synthetic or chemically derived fertilizers has a pretty recent history when compared to how long man has been farming or growing crops for food. They are really only a by-product of the Industrial Revolution and the "hundreds of years" can actually be reduced to about 200, with the predominance of these fertilizers being widely accepted and used immediately after WWII, when they became cheaply and widely available, as greenwood85 notes. Same with synthetic, manufacture pesticides. And their introduction to the farming or gardening scene was considered at that time to be an enormous boon - a fast-acting, lightweight, easy to apply and easily accessible material that improved and increased harvests. Naturally - without the greater understanding we have now of soil science and the health implications of chemical residues and these products effects on pollution and ecology - they were widely accepted and utilized. It would be pretty hard to go back 50 or 60 years and not find a gardener or farmer that didn't use some form of manufactured fertilizer or pesticide. But even given these considerations, a good many of those gardeners/farmers from previous generations still incorporated what might be best termed "natural gardening" practices - composting, using animal manures, companion plantings, rotational cropping, home remedies for insect and disease controls - along with the manufactured products that at the time seemed like such a great improvement on what they had been doing. And affluence and location played a role as well - poorer farmers in more remote locations tended to use more what they had on hand - the natural methods and products rather than the newer, costly and more difficult to obtain manufactured ones. So I believe it is difficult to make a direct correlation between "old time gardening" and the organic or natural way unless you are going back more than just a 100 years or so.

"Conventional" agriculture depends on the systematic application of synthetic materials, many of which are petroleum based - that is currently changing, in part because of increasing oil prices and decreasing subsidies. Some studies have estimated that: "The biggest culprit of fossil fuel usage in industrial farming is not transporting food or fueling machinery; it�s chemicals. As much as forty percent of energy used in the food system goes towards the production of artificial fertilizers and pesticides. Fertilizers are synthesized from atmospheric nitrogen and natural gas, a process that takes a significant amount of energy. Producing and distributing them requires an average of 5.5 gallons of fossil fuels per acre. Large scale organic producers have similar fuel usage to conventional in terms of distribution of inputs (on-farm machinery use) and distribution of product, but not the high fossil fuel use associated with the creation of those inputs. Most small-scale organic producers (though not all, I among them) have relatively local markets, but by their nature operations of substantial acreage are producing more food than can be consumed by a local (less than 100 miles) population, so distribution becomes a major fuel use that smaller producers don't face. Because many organic food producers are motivated by the desire to reduce their effect on the environment, new technologies are being developed to reduce in-field petroleum use even further. There are at least 2 companies working on solar-electric tractors for wide-bed production systems, and the design of highly efficient and adaptable machines like the BCS walking tractor system makes mechanization on a small scale affordable and worthwhile for small farms. The "locavore" movement is a consumer-based effort to achieve the same goals, reducing transportation and storage costs, maintaining viable small farms in rural areas where large-scale agriculture doesn't work, and preserving (and now creating) existing agricultural land in close proximity to urban populations. What is happening in Detroit right now is one good example, Will Allens' work in Milwaulkee and Chicago was similarly motivated, and has since grown into a national non-profit with several training centers across the country. I agree with you, Wayne, that few minds are likely to be changed here. I am what some would label a purist, though I know others find fault with my methods in that I ship my produce to markets far removed from my little town. I also recognize the advantages that industrial agriculture have brought to this country and the world. I agree with you, too, that the world is in the midst of some dramatic changes, many of them the result of the exact medium we are using here, the instantaneous world-wide access to information. We all get our information from different sources, and have to pick where to find it and what to believe, and naturally we won't all agree. The important thing is that we can remain agreeable in the discussion. Here is a link that might be useful: Will Allen

Novascapes, "If you don't think organic fertilizer can be a problem you need to read this" Just like someone said above, some orgainc farmers do more harm than in-orgainic, thats if the organic farmer doesn't know what they are doing. Let me put it to you this way, why is the bee population drooping? I'll give you a hint organic farmers did NOT do it. I have alot of synthetic fertilizers stored as they never go bad and I always find a use for them. Even slow release in-organic fertilizer wont hurt microbes but wont help the soil. I agree with in-organic farming even in ground as synthetic fertilizers are easier to ship, store, ect....

The following was stated: "Also, I don't think anyone in this discussion is farming any GMO corn or soy..." H.Kuska comment. The part of the link that I cut and paste had to do with the subtopic discussed by Wayne and Marshall as indicated in my lead in sentence: "Wayne and Marshall, the link below discusses another farming mode." This subthread is about alternate farming modes. The distinction between farming and gardening is a blurred one. I feel that some/many? of the readers interested in this forum are interested in reading about other possible agricultural practices especially if they find that some of the suggestions could be applied to their organic gardens (with zero or very little modification). The Union of Concerned Scientists actual detailed statement was linked to in the last link that I gave. In case some missed it, I now give the actual link below. The quote below should give the reader an idea of their suggested direction. "Healthy Farm Practices How can farmers turn all this theory into practice? Our experts have identified four key healthy farm practices: A landscape approach. On a healthy farm, uncultivated areas are maintained as a resource, providing a home for beneficial organisms as well as a buffer to help keep farm nutrients from polluting nearby waterways. Crop diversity and rotation. Using long, complex crop rotations, and expanding the farm's repertoire to include fruits, vegetables and/or energy crops, can yield multiple benefits, including healthier soil, reduced need for pesticides, and even higher profits. Integrating crops and livestock. Well-managed pastures help maintain biodiversity, while the manure they produce is a valuable resource for soil fertility. And animals provide a market for some alternative crops, facilitating complex crop rotations. Cover crops. Planting cover crops when soil would otherwise be bare reduces erosion, improves soil fertility and water-holding capacity, and helps keep weeds under control. Healthy Farm Benefits Together, these principles and practices add up to a healthy farm��"and the benefits are many. For instance: Reduced need for chemical inputs. By increasing soil fertility and pest resistance, healthy farm practices enable farmers to greatly reduce their reliance (and expenditure) on chemical fertilizers, herbicides and insecticides. Drought resilience. A healthy farm's soil is better at retaining water, so the farm is less susceptible to the devastating impacts of drought. Increased biodiversity. A healthy farm is a far more welcoming home to pollinators and other beneficial organisms than its industrial competitors. Reduced environmental impact. Common environmental impacts of industrial agriculture, such as nitrogen runoff and toxic pesticide residues, are greatly reduced on a healthy farm." http://www.ucsusa.org/food_and_agriculture/solutions/advance-sustainable-agriculture/healthy-farm-vision.html Here is a link that might be useful: actual statement