Bacteria in the tea are consuming oxygen as they feed.

By adding the nitrogen sources you have added 'super fuel' to the tea. The end result is the oxygen is being used up faster than your aeration system is adding it.

I am not much of an aerated tea guy as I think the end result is roughly the same as just foliar spraying with dilute fish emulsion, but... if an aerated, sweet smelling tea is what you want then you have to back off the nitrogen.

3 days is also an awfully long time to brew an aerated tea.

What I am saying is you have to balance the capabilities of your aeration system with the level of bacterial action.

Most folks just put in compost and aerate it. Some add molasses as an additional food source, but add it in a small amount because adding too much results in what you experienced, the oxygen is sucked up faster than the pump can add it and things go rank.

hmmm, I think I see what you mean. Sort of like a compost pile where we have to find a balance in the ratio of greens and browns?

You compared an aerated tea to fish emulsion. But don't they serve different purposes? While fish emulsion adds nutrients to the soil for microbes, aerated teas add nutrients *and* microbes, which could benefit unhealthy soil like mine. At least, that's what I understand from the FAQs :P

Is 3 days a very long time? I got that from the FAQs as well.

I would have preferred to use just compost, but since I am unable to start a compost pile, I only have access to wood-based commercial compost which I think is a little lacking in terms of nutrients and trace elements.

I'll do what you suggested and go slow on both the nitrogen and the molasses. Thanks a lot for the help!

P.S. Something just came to mind. Are the molasses really a factor? I was under the impression that it was mainly the aerobic bacteria that made use of sugars. Then again I'm no biology major, hahaa.

Malaysia, huh. Thank you for mentioning that in your profile. A lot of people here think they can get away with listing their location as "United States," or not listing one at all.

Unfortunately most of us don't know squat about Malaysia, like even how to spell it, but with the help of my spell checker, I'm learning. I did use Yahoo to check the weather in Kuala Lumpur and found that the high is 85 and low is 75. That info is critical to helping you with your tea. In fact it provides the solution to your problem. Here's the problem. Warm water cannot hold as much dissolved oxygen as cold water can. When water reaches about 80 degrees F, it barely holds enough water to support any biology in it. If your water temp is averaging 80 degrees F (27 degrees C) or more, you can't add ANYTHING to your compost and you MUST use it within 24 hours from starting the brew. Otherwise you'll end up with a completely anaerobic tea. Adding molasses makes things worse at a very high rate. Adding any other food pretty much makes things worse at a slower rate than molasses.

However, if you can move the tea into an air conditioned space where the temps are in the low 70s F (21 degrees C), then you can add one teaspoon of molasses per gallon of water, but you still need to use it within 24 hours.

Here is a link that might be useful: Deuley's Texas Tea Brewer

You compared an aerated tea to fish emulsion. But don't they serve different purposes? While fish emulsion adds nutrients to the soil for microbes, aerated teas add nutrients *and* microbes, which could benefit unhealthy soil like mine. At least, that's what I understand from the FAQs :P

When it comes to aerated teas you will be much better served by people like dchall than myself.

I actually regretted the fish emulsion comparison right after clicking the submit button because sometimes passions run high on the topic of ACT.

Briefly, here is what I meant. Advocates of aerated teas generally believe the benefit is the tea itself contains a high population of bacteria. They believe the bacteria in the tea then go on to survive the application process and cause a favorable plant response.

I think they are likely incorrect, but the tea still provides very real benefits.

I don't think it is necessary to aerate a tea to get the benefits and I don't even think teas are the only way to get the benefits. This is my ***opinion***.

Spraying a plant with dilute fish emulsion coats the plant with nutrients (same as teas) and it also introduces a food source for fungi and bacteria on the plant surface (same as teas).

My ***opinion*** is that teas don't work well for multiplying fungi and while they work terrific for multiplying bacteria, they aren't likely to multiply those bacteria best suited for life on a plant surface exposed to sun, wind and heat.

By placing a food source on the plant tissue one attracts fungi and bacteria that are adapted to open air life and they are there to eat decaying organic matter, not living plant tissue which makes them good, defensive fungi and bacteria.

I suspect that the bacteria introduced to plants via aerated compost tea results in a lot of bacteria on the plant that are out of their ideal environment and become food for better adapted bacteria and fungi. In other words, they become a food source, just like the fish emulsion.

Again, this is my *opinion* and I see no reason to not make aerated teas if the idea holds interest for you.

Dchall and others are into the tea making and are better able to advise you on the particulars though.

dchall
------
Thanks for taking the time to check out my actual location! Yeah, I don't blame you for not knowing much about Malaysia; most people have only heard of us as the country above Singapore, hahaa. And it's such an uphill battle for aspiring organic gardeners like myself because organic awareness in the community is nearly non-existent. It's even hard to find any sort of commercial compost (not kidding!).

I was going to shout eureka and agree with your post entirely, but then it got me wondering: if our water temperature results in too little dissolved oxygen for microbes, then how is it that larger organisms such as fish can survive in aquariums without additional cooling?

Regardless, I will certainly try out your suggestions and see if I can get the brew to bubble (perhaps I need a bigger pump?). And thanks for the great link too :)

justaguy
--------
Thoughts and opinions noted! So, while you and the proponents of aerated teas debate about their efficacy, I will simply alternate betweeb using *both* teas and fish emulsion and hopefully reap their combined benefits.

Hope to keep up with the continuing discussion, though; I find teas and microherds and the whole soil food web thing a very intriguing topic!

>>
One other thing....is the alchohol (ethanol?) produced by anaerobic decomposition harmful to plants?

So, while you and the proponents of aerated teas debate about their efficacy, I will simply alternate betweeb using *both* teas and fish emulsion and hopefully reap their combined benefits.

LOL, I generally *don't* debate on this topic as it is almost always a losing proposition. I think there is value in teas aerated or not as well as fish emulsion. Whether one offers benefits the other does not... I have my ***opinions*** and other have theirs. To each their own. One other thing....is the alchohol (ethanol?) produced by anaerobic decomposition harmful to plants?

Dosage, dosage, dosage ;-)

Plants anaerobically produce alcohols in the process of glycolysis, part of their respiration:metabolism.

The idea that aerobic=good and anaerobic=bad is so over generalized in gardening topics, particularly when the topic is composting or good/bad bacteria that it becomes inaccurate.

I agree with justaguy2, too. My experiments with compost tea were total failures, but I have respected friends who swear by it.

I'm not a fish person, but it could be that warm water fish have evolved more gill area to get the necessary oxygen. If you get to be a serious advocate of "actively aerated compost tea," you'll end up with a dissolved oxygen meter to test your tea.

One more thing, if you are looking for organic fertilizers in your area, any ground up bean, nut, seed, or grain is a good fertilizer. If it is not ground up it might become a new plant. Anything that is a supplemental animal feed is good to start with. The ingredients in pet food are pretty much the same ingredients used in organic fertilizers. Anything with protein in it is a great start, but the animal based protein sources (blood meal, leather meal, hair, fish meal, etc.) are more difficult to use. Ground grains can be used at 10-30 pounds per square foot without much trouble. Try that with leather or hair and you'll get nothing. Try that with blood or fish and you'll burn everything in sight. I think there's a big future in the animal products as fertilizer, but I am not aware of an easy way to determine dosage.

Here is a link that might be useful: NPK of stuff

That's surprising, dchall. Judging by your knowledge on the matter, I would have thought that you were actively brewing aerated teas and using them with positive results. Well, I guess there's no harm trying, and even if I don't succeed in breeding a large anaerobic microbe population, at least the nutrients and organic matter in the tea will feed the existing soil microbes.

As for organic fertilizers, that isn't so much of a problem here, partly because most people equate organic gardening with using manure! (so there's always an abundance of chicken/cattle/sheep manure). What's hard to find are things like compost, soil ammendments, pest/disease control, soil tests, etc. We don't even have a gardeners' extension (is that the correct term?) that I am aware of. Actually, I'm thinking of starting a small group for organic gardening in my area. That is, after I learn enough from the helpful people in this forum, of course :)

You might also try posting in the Gulf Coast Forum - while not truly tropical, and not organic, they will be gardening in the closest climate to yours there is here, so they might have a few other ideas. You will, of course, have to filter out the non-organic ones.

Can you make your own compost? It can be as simple as making a mixed pile of stuff and letting it sit for a while - which in your climate might be only a few months! Turning it would speed the process. All your plant prunings and clippings can be your greens, with the wood-based stuff (even if it is already partly or wholly composted, it will just hurry things along) as the brown. The mix may not be ideal, but starting somewhere is better than not doing it.

Thanks for the suggestion, dibbit. I'll make my way over there to check out the forum. Making my own compost *would* be the ideal solution. But I am pretty much a live-alone eat-outside bachelor, so I just don't have a daily supply of organic leftovers to sustain a compost pile; unless I go around begging for food scraps from the neighbours while enduring strange glares :P. Plus, my yard is so small that there really isn't any space for a compost bin that is out of view. I am doing the next best thing, though: making leaf mould from the constant supply of leaves that drop all year round from the many trees in my area.

Leaf mould is a form of compost. If you check out the compost forum, they can give you a good idea as to the perventage of "other stuff" that you would have to add to leaves to get ideal compost. I would think that you could add almost anything to the pile (well, maybe not food scraps, especially meats, unless blendered, because of rats) and it would add to your compost. Used tea leaves or used coffee grounds would be good additives. A lot of people here are getting coffee grounds from their local coffee shops. Since you eat out a lot, could you ask your favorite restaurants to save things (veggies, etc., not meat), especially if you give them a few buckets with lidas? It would mean you would HAVE to eat there on certain nights, to get the buckets, but if you do that anyway? And the locally available animal manures could go in the pile also - not a bad idea anyway, as they should ideally be aged a bit before you use them. You don't HAVE to add to a pile daily - you can stockpile the ingredients separately, make a layered pile all at one time, and then either let it sit for 6-9 months or turn it as often as you feel like it, which would speed the process up. In the meantime, you can be stockpiling the ingredients to make another one-time pile..... You just need to make the pile big enough for all the stuff to 'work'.

>>dibbit
After giving the matter some thought, I guess I really could start a compost pile if I put a little effort into collecting the required ingredients (after all, I already have unlimited access to dried leaves and coffee grounds). Will post a separate thread with questions about that later. Thanks!

>>dchall
I followed the instructions to Deuley's Texas Tea Brewer, and sure enough, my tea was frothing like a rabid pit bull. But now I seem to have the opposite "problem": it has no smell. Is that a bad thing, or does it just mean that the microbes have digested everything that they possibly could?

No smell is better than a stinky smell. When I made tea it was winter and I used molasses. It smelled like rum to me. When the rum smell went away it started to smell like dirty socks. I should also say that I had a serious problem with the chemical used to dechlorinate my water. I basically had less than 1/2 the biology in the tea than I should have.

It sounds like you spend a lot of money on amendments, even though you have access o coffee grounds and manures. Don't believe that you need to spend money to grow something well. Don't believe that the stuff that you buy will be any better at growing a great garden than the coffee grounds, leaves for mulch, and compost that you can easily make yourself! Unless you have severe soil problems that compost has not fixed- save your money (unless you're rich and dying to spend it I suppose :)

I've searched and asked for articles with actual data showing that the microbes in aerated teas do anything against disease etc, to no avail. I've actually found studies on aerated teas that show no effect, and some that showed non-aerated teas had some effect (that effect went away when the tea was aerated).

Many have anecdotes about ACT, but no proof yet. I would like to see it. The hypothesis that these boosted microbe populations will outcompete pathogens, or that they'll somehow become a thriving population in the soil that gives great benefits (despite the major difference in habitat and the abrupt change in conditions that they face) make sense when a proponent makes statements about them- but theory guides and experiment decides.

The teas add nutrients that could have just been added in the first place. The effort to aerate etc. has not been shown to be of more benefit than just adding the nutrient without the complications. Give the soil the right food and microbes that will do the work for you will live in the soil.

I also don't buy the arguement that there's not been enough money paid to study ACT. I've seen many studies. If there is a benefit, at this point I can only assume that it's either only against a very limited number of specific pathogens, that it may or may not be of more benefit than just a tea with the raw nutrient, or that the effect is marginal.

I welcome anyone else's opinion and discussion on the matter- especially if you have conclusive and peer reviewed data.

I welcome anyone else's opinion and discussion on the matter- especially if you have conclusive and peer reviewed data.

Unfortunately the primary 'researcher' pushing aeration as the be all, end all is Elaine Ingham of Soil Food Web and ever since she left university research she has avoided peer review like it was a mutant strain of e. coli.

She says anyone can review her work, but the reality is she doesn't provide the necessary information on methodology for anyone to attempt replication of results. Usually when someone does attempt a trial they fail to see any benefit and then the SFW crew criticizes the experiment because they did it 'wrong'.

Perhaps the aerated tea folks could encourage her to publish something for peer review instead of just the public.

I think you have gotten a lot of good suggestions here. And I have posted on your thread on the compost forum also. There is rarely a valid reason for someone NOT to compost, especially someone wanting to garden organically.

Besides the fact, that your oxygen demand is exceeding your oxygen supply, and your temperature may be on the warm side, another thing to keep in mind when trying to sustain an aerobic population is mixing. Often times the air required to keep the mixture in suspension is greater than the air required to meet oxygen demand. Which is why 3 days is probably too long to maintain suspension with a small aerator. Unsuspended sediment in the pail will quickly go anaerobic and then stink up the whole mess.

It might be beneficial to compare an aerated tea to the MLSS of an activated sludge wastewater treatment plant. For tea enthusiasts looking for information, you may want to read up on what wastewater treatment operators due to maintain oxygen levels and suspension in their tanks. Its very similar to an aerated tea, just on a larger scale and there is tons of peer reviewed articles on that type of aeration.

And anaerobic material is not necessarily bad for your garden, it just smells bad.

Perhaps a little background information might be helpful in understanding my current situation. Maybe then the questions that I ask and the things I do may not seem so unusual!

I have only been gardening for about 6 months. Couple that to the fact that I live in a developing country and my "reason" for not having a compost pile becomes quite clear. Until recently, I didn't even know that coffee grounds could be used as a source of "greens" and that Starbucks had a policy of giving them away to gardeners. I have a 100 sqft front yard and a backyard that is barely big enough for a compost bin. In terms of environmental awareness, we are probably at least 20 years behind countries such as the US and Canada. It would not be an exaggeration to say that I am the only serious (wannabe) composter within 10 square miles.

But enough excuses. I am an organic gardener, and I *will* start a compost pile!

>pablo_nh
We do have a lot of manure, but primarily in dried, pelletized form and they're quite expensive. So in reality, the only affordable bulk ammendment available to me is coffee grounds. Everything with the organic label here carries a price premium, simply because there is very little demand. Of course, that will no longer be an issue once I get started on my homemade compost :)

>joepyeweed
In reference to your question in my other thread, the reason that I am brewing aerated tea is because (1)commercial organic fungicides are almost non-existent and (2) microbe activity seems to be lacking in my poor soils.

But after the recent discussions in this thread, it would seem that both points are moot. Is it really a waste of time and effort for me to aerate my teas? Fungal and bacterial infections run rampant here during the wet seasons and I am desperately looking for an effective form of organic control.

Whether aerated teas help or not- feeding your soil, and watering and mulching properly, will allow plants to be strong enough to fight many diseases. I would not doubt that many of the anecdotal disease cures by ACT were the result of the nutrient in the tea- which you get whether you aerate or not. Spray it wherever you want- it gets washed off leaves and into the soil when it rains.

I don't think its a complete waste of time and effort to aerate tea. I think using tea helps expand the benefits of compost by being able to use it on a much larger area than a topdressing of compost. And aerating the tea, helps keep it from smelling bad, so its more pleasant to use.

Fungal and bacterial infections run rampant here during the wet seasons and I am desperately looking for an effective form of organic control.

You should have asked that question first. Whole ground corn meal is not a peer reviewed organic fungicide but thousands of happy campers will attest to the effectiveness of it. And for that reason I think there should be some leeway granted to "experiential evidence" that is not normally found in universities. A good rate to kill a fungal disease is 20 pounds per 1,000 square feet. You can also make a "tea" by soaking a couple handfuls of corn meal in a sock dunked in a gallon of water overnight. Spray that on foliage.

Ordinary milk has been peer reviewed and found effective on some fungi. I found it to work fantastic on an African violet with a 1/4 inch white fungal mat on the surface of the soil. It seemed like the soil was very acid because the milk curdled immediately when I poured it on. The plant went on to recover and flower without any other changes besides switching from Peters 20-20-20 to milk. I use as much milk as I have left over from breakfast, but you can start with 3 ounces per gallon to cover 1,000 square feet (that's not very much). Any milk will work. I drink only chocolate milk when I'm out in the hotels so that's what I use there. Sour milk, dry milk, water buffalo milk, any milk.

Garlic juice is another effective remedy but not peer reviewed. It is patented but not peer reviewed. But then you can get a patent for nearly any claim, so that's not a good reason to drop what you're doing and switch. Use one pound of garlic to 2 pounds of water (2 liters) in a blender. Strain off the pulp for your next Italian dinner and dilute the juice to spray 2,500 square feet (232 square meters).

Liquid seaweed seems to work, too. Three ounces in a gallon of water as a foliar spray every 2 weeks.

As far as compost being used as a fertilizers, the link I gave you earlier for the NPK of various organic materials is a real winner. Ground up soy makes a great fertilizer.

Dchall, is the garlic being used similar to milk as a fungicide or is it used to target something in particular?

Garlic is relatively general purpose, like milk. Here's a link to a patent on the subject.

>dchall
Actually the reason I didn't ask is because I have already been using some of the organic remedies you suggested (though it's not always easy to tell what's really effective without a controlled experiment). Also, I was hoping this particular discussion would focus on the efficacy of aerated teas both as a garden soil "innoculant" and a form of disease control. Fighting bad microbes with good microbes (fire with fire so to speak) is certainly an interesting proposition.

But since we're on the subject, I just have some quick questions....

Corn meal: I used this on my turf before, but it's really hard to find here and expensive as well (tortillas are not exactly our staple diet!). Could I just put some maize in a blender and use that instead?

Garlic: The patent mentions the addition of essential oils. Do they significantly improve the effectiveness of the spray (and if so, can I simply add them in, or is there some special mixing process involved)?

Spreader-stickers: What is a good substitute for horticultural oils (impossible to find here) for use as a spreader-sticker? I've heard that soap/detergents are not appropriate because many of them have anti-bacterial properties and most vegetable oils are too heavy and so smother the stomata.

Corn meal: I used this on my turf before, but it's really hard to find here and expensive as well (tortillas are not exactly our staple diet!). Could I just put some maize in a blender and use that instead?

You could try that. I think any organic program will help prevent fungus. Corn is the only one I am aware of that has even a minimal amount of testing to show it works. Can you use milk? It sure is easy to use.

Garlic: The patent mentions the addition of essential oils. Do they significantly improve the effectiveness of the spray (and if so, can I simply add them in, or is there some special mixing process involved)?

Many patents seem to have misleading information in them to keep people from copying a commercial idea. As a starting point, I wouldn't even bother with them.

Spreader-stickers: What is a good substitute for horticultural oils (impossible to find here) for use as a spreader-sticker? I've heard that soap/detergents are not appropriate because many of them have anti-bacterial properties and most vegetable oils are too heavy and so smother the stomata.

Baby shampoo, watered down. Someone on around here suggested unboiled linseed oil for something.

Intresting thread I am trying to learn as much as possible about Compost Teas. The recipes to are quite helpful. I am a firm beliver that the teas can have a positive effect on plant health.

Well,

Aerated compost tea is VERY EFFECTIVE when done right but it appears too many people has no idea what they are doing. Molasses is not really needed. Actually, I strongly discourage it. You get enough of bacteria from the compost alone anyway.

The key is to getting enough fungi which is hard to do. Apparently, the best way to do is have a pan of compost (a gallon amount for 5g bucket), sprinkle fungal food on top of it (or mix it in?), give it a little filtered water. It can't be too wet. Just enough that you can barely get a drop of water out of it when squeezed in your hand. It can be baby oatmeal, corn meal, soybean meal, kelp meal to name a few (at least that is what I'd try, maybe a bit of each to get most diversity of fungi species) for fungi to feed on and multiply. Cover it with aluminum foil and leave it in dark cool dry place like the garage and wait a week or two. You should see a mass of fungi growing sorta like santa's beard.

You should have much better fungal count that way.

Brew it in a mesh bag and brew it for no more than 24 hours. Keep it out of sunlight.

Soil drenching is my preferred method. Foilar spraying takes a bit of work. You must find right type of sprayer where it won't clog up. I don't bother it since I don't feel like spending $$$ for a 4g sprayer with right type of nozzle sprayer so I just give every plant a soil drench except for the lawn with a cup of tea around the root zone. I do that for new plants only though. I don't think the older plants that has gotten them in the past really needed anymore unless they don't look healthy for some reason and tray again.

Soil Food Web is probably the best place to learn about compost tea. I don't know where else that has that kind of expertise in aerated compost tea. They are very serious about having proper set of organisms so they do a lot of testing to make sure they are in there before applying them.

A lot of guys here just make compost tea and hope they work. Just really doesn't work that way unfortunately. You could be missing out important organisms like amoeba, protozoan, fungi species while having bacteria only. It's too easy to blame it on compost tea and say it doesn't work if it has never been tested to find out what exactly it had like a lot of people here do.

Here is a link that might be useful: SFI info about compost

I've never heard of growing the fungi that way. Okay, no more than 24-hours brewing time.

What kind of mesh bags do you recommend?

Well I was wandering about the foliar spraying method. The mesh bag would have to be pretty fine not to have any debrie in it. I've also ordered a free video CD from Bountea he talks about spraying the plants with a hose end sprayer. However, I would have to disagree because wouldn't that kill some of the critters (chlorine in the water. He also grows monsterous veggies.

I came across Soil Food web and have it bookmarked. They have alot of good information on their site.

Here is a link that might be useful: bountea

lou,
Do you apply your ACCT to your turf areas? If so how do you go about doing it? I can't think of an easy way of spraying my lawn.

For mesh bags - try this website. It's also where I got KIS 5g brewer from.

Here is a link that might be useful: KIS mesh bag

Thanks, lou_midlothian_tx.

Tey,

I've used ACCT on my turf but it would keep clogging up my sprayer and I got tired of it. I just use garden watering container for it. I need to find a better way of filtering them out. I noticed KIS has new large mesh bag to cover the entire 5g so I probably will get that. That would help a lot. There are some info on KIS website about sprayer, what you need to look for when buying a sprayer. There are plenty of sprayers with that kind of nozzle sprayer.

I have a pan of woody compost mixed in with tiny bit of soybean meal, corn meal and alfalfa pellet followed by a tiny bit of water solution with seaweed, humic acids, and fish hydrolysate. We're talking about maybe an ounce total of these ingredient s mixed with filtered water, maybe 4 ounces. That should really ramp up fungi growth of all species! I'll find out in a couple weeks if that works!

I believe having wide diversity of fungi species are far more important since they are very easy to kill off. You don't need to do anything special to grow bacteria since they are already there in the compost and it's easy enough to get them in good numbers in the tea.

Nematodes and protozoa are bit difficult to get enough in compost tea though. Without them, nutrients aren't released to the roots. They act as "spreaders". Bacteria and fungi are your source of nitrogen, potassium, and many other nutrients but they need to be eaten by nematodes and protozoa to make nutrients available to the roots.

Thanks, I'm learning more everyday.