For the last year I presented data showing we are cooling, showing how it is being hidden, but people believe in emotion and not fact, it's a tough barrier to breach. Gardengal says to give it up, everything you say is not true, ignoring the actual data. Another says he knows nobody who believes we are not warming. Never heard a scientist say otherwise, yet tens of thousands of scientists say just that, That global warming is a scam.
Facts just don't matter, it's how you feel. I pointed out the fake scientists at the UN. The emails that prove the insiders are trying to deceive the public. The proof Nasa changed data to make it look worse. The numerous people fired from government, even private sector jobs for being a global warming denier. That the historic record shows co2 increases when it's warm, that is follows warming never leads it. It all was/is ignored. I always thought George Orwell was really out there with his book 1984, but double speak, history revision etc are happening. I see him as a genius now.

This is not a subject for the fruit and orchards forum, IMO. If you go to a forum of climate scientists and not the pseudo type maybe you will get some answers.

Fruit growers have no particular knowledge of climate and come from a range of political perspectives. This topic has become much more political than scientific in this country, with both sides claiming to have the accurate information and convinced the other side is either working from emotion rather than fact, or private agendas for selfish interest.

The debate here has become pointless to most of us, I believe, as the dead horse lies on the compost pile long since reduced to bones.

I'm personally convinced that nothing significant will be done about it until one or the other side has been proven beyond a shadow of BS that there is an existential threat- probably if most of Florida is under water.

It's actually getting kinda scary cold. Even the liberal BBC can't deny the lack of solar activity.
NPR struggles to explain the cooling oceans, although they do a good job of keeping the lie alive.

As of November 20th Ice is on Lake Michigan, Huron, and Superior. Now Lake Superior has ice on it for more than half the year.

Gardengal tried to convince me antartic ice is melting as reported by American news organizations which seem to be all about propaganda these days. We don't have real news anymore. I never thought that would happen.
I was told by members here Europe is warming.

I was told hurricanes would rise in number due to global warming. That it is happening.

As far as I'm concerned, anyone who starts a thread like this should be banned. It's trolling - nothing else.

Local data are not good. Global cooling may be coming to Michigan, but it is not going elsewhere. See this map (for January 2014), terrible in the US and parts of Siberia, but warm in Africa, Europe, China and Alaska. (feel free to look at any other month)

http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/temp-and-precip/global-maps.php?imgs%5B%5D=map-blended-mntp&year=2014&month=1

These are blackbody IR data from satellite, so impervious to urban effects.

There are lots of known climatic oscillations, but none with a precisely known frequency that you can say we are getting (or we will soon get) through a trough. And the main solar cycle, 11 years or so, is just a fast oscillation on top of a linear trend. You just posted about crop failures in Europe, due to winters without freezing. I don't see it.

Or, to make the post as quantitative as possible:

- what are the sine waves of concern, what is their typical amplitude, typical frequency, and phase? And what are the data supporting each wave component?

Whether I agree with the appropriateness of posting this subject on this forum or not... I cannot agree or condone the "banning" of anyone for doing so.

These who agree or disagree with the position are free to join in agreement or opposition. Those who feel it is a waste of their time can just ignore and not participate.

If there is no interest in the subject it will go off the board soon enough. If there are responses that keep it going, those just go to prove interest in the subject and therefore its appropriateness to this forum.

BANNING just makes me queazy in the stomach.

Mike

I don't really care,...just skip the thread if you don't like it, [as long there is not too many like this] ...eventually it will go away, lots of other threads to click on.

You guy's south might need a little cooling, but for me, more interest in warming, [want to grow tropical stuff] lol. yes, in the long run we're still warming.

I have studied a lot of history and one thing I would like to challenge you all to look at is the rising of oceans claim.

There was a warming period that started in the 8th century and lasted for centuries. European societies advanced in leaps and bounds. In this period the vikings discovered Greenland and started settlements there. When this warming period gave way to the little ice age those viking settlements failed and those people had to leave leave Greenland (there were natives that stayed and did fine). There was a 7 degree difference in average temps between the high of this warming period and the low of the little ice age. Yet despite plenty of written history nothing is said about any change is sea level.

Maybe this is related to the fact that the ice that is melting (in those areas that are in fact melting) is not sitting on land. Floating ice sticks out of the water only due to voids in the ice. You can prove this with a bowl of water and large ice cubes. put the ice on the bowl then fill it to the brim with ice elevated above the brim. No water will spill out as the ice melts.

So when I hear of rising sea levels, I assume the rest is bogus as well.

Sure oceans have changed dramatically over the eons. Where do those rock salt formations come from? For example the New Mexico formation near Carlsbad is about 1200 ft deep. There was a lot of drying and wetting in that area.

Dennis,

Please do not be intimidated. Do not allow the intolerant zeal of the GW climate change religionists define us.

Please do not remove your posts just because some otherwise rational people lose it.

Mike

Just to back up what the original poster had written about, I have included a link. Cold records are beating heat records by a long shot in the U.S. this year. Globally, heat records are about tied up with the cold records. This is happening at the peak of a solar cycle, indicating that further cooling is to be expected.

Furthermore, CO2 abundance in the atmosphere is insignificant compared to small solar changes.

Don't get caught up in the weeds that anthropogenic climate change advocates lead us into. They want you to be silent. They want to attach themselves as an earmark onto the federal teat. They will claim that polar bears are dying off when in actuality they are an abundant nuisance.

They want to shut down all our coal power plants. China is building a coal power plant every week. They want to pretend they don't control internal chinese policy. Globalist liars working toward a one world government is what they are.

Here is a link that might be useful: cold records and heat records - NOAA

troll

would it not be better to look at global records, since we are talking about global warming? The USA is a small place, hosting only 4% of the world population. As luck may have it, getting to the global records is easy, only a few posts up there is a link.

The global cold/heat records are one link away within the link I provided. I want you to look at the global records and remember that global heat records are going to be on the downhill slide due to reduced solar activity in the future.

The issue for us as orchard owners is what plants we will select for the future. That's what makes this discussion relevant to this forum and will be the difference between crop failure and crop success for many.

On behalf of Dennis. Dennis has been involved in this forum for years. He is from Finland, and speaks far better English than we speak Finnish. Just leave him alone and if you don't like the thread, don't respond. Mrs. G

so, we have a US cooling already under way, but Alaska, East Siberia, China, Europe and Sahara warming? Resulting in an overall (average) slight warming?

Just because folks don't agree with Drew (I don't entirely either), does NOT mean that his thread should be banned. Climate is very directly related to growing fruit, and if you don't like the topic, stay away. But the conversation it has generated is a testament to how many people find it of interest.

Drew, I'm not sure about all your ideas, but I definitely applaud you for questioning things.

So what does "troll" mean? What is it intended to convey?

Is it meant as a put down?

And at whom was it directed?

And to malusmaven... Why did you call whomever it was a troll?

Mike

I almost posted this as another topic:

The Price of Tea in China

The price of tea in china is significant to us here because it is determined a great deal by weather trends in that country which may be associated with weather trends in the U.S.

I'm extremely interested in what fruit growers have to say about this because they are experts in all things associated with growing fruit, especially on the subject of weather.

I can't trust the media and I can't trust the scientists on this issue, because, you know, they are all looking after their own interests and are being undermined by dark forces that seek to enslave every human being in our poor country.

I also would like you to look at this photo of a strange growth on the skin of my forehead. I am trying to diagnose whether it is cancerous and don't trust any of the doctors I've spoken to- they clearly are pursuing their own agendas and would call any growth melanoma if it meant they could operate on it."

Not a thing has been posted here that expands on what was posted a few months ago, including my little satire, that clearly shows where I happen to stand on this issue- the difference is that many of the occasional participants to this forum that used to argue with the posters who are still prevalent on this topic have tired of the debate.

I already knew Drew's opinion on this issue and Swamps and I even suspect Mrs. G.s. No one is being converted to the other side- I've yet to here a single participant say, "that's really a good point, you know. You've really turned me around on this".

So what are you doing it for?

When someone comes here with a question about fruit we can do something positive that doesn't make us angry, or feeling triumphant over enemies we've made angry. Nothing good has come out of these arguments that I can see. There are much better venues for this particular discussion than the Fruit and Orchards forum, IMO.

I don't mind climate change threads, especially since winter is a slower time on the forum. If it were just one (or a few people) engaging in them, it would be different, but generally these threads generate a lot of activity from a lot of people.

I don't consider these posters trolls because most of them are regular contributors, who are trying to contribute something meaningful to them on this topic. I'm interested in their thoughts on a topic of interest to me.

I get Hman's satire, but I am interested in possible weather trends as it relates to growing fruit. I guess I can't help it.

It's also true nobody's mind is going to be changed, but that is pretty much true about anything which is at least partly political (or religious). Another example would be the Organic vs. Conventional debate.

There are lots of threads (i.e. most of the threads) on this forum where I don't learn anything, but I still read w/ interest. Maybe I'm weird that way.

I'm a long-term man-made climate change believer, and the debate on this forum hasn't changed my mind. However, I have learned things from folks on this forum that I don't hear other places. Things like polar bears don't seem to be decreasing in numbers, the oceans haven't started to warm yet, etc.

I still think the earth will warm, if only because CO2 is known to be a fairly powerful greenhouse gas. The U.S. surpassed Saudi Arabia earlier this year as the largest producer of crude oil in the world. We produce 11 million barrels/day and import another 7.5 million barrels. 18.5 million barrels/day just for the U.S. On a global scale, the world uses almost 90 million barrels/day. A mind boggling amount.

This has to have an effect on carbon in the atmosphere, as seems to be the case, which should make the world warmer than it otherwise would have been. How sun activity plays a role in the short term is, I suppose, still a question.

I think both sides are passionate because they believe they are fighting injustice. Injustice from the denier's perspective that folks at the top of the climate change debate, really just want to redistribute wealth from rich nations to poor, and are just using climate change as means to advance world socialism. On the other hand, the climate change believer's perspective is that denier's are ignoring (and causing others to ignore) a catastrophic problem which will ultimately cause enormous suffering and possibly make the planet uninhabitable, a serious injustice. From their perspective, deniers would have a lot to answer for.

Still, it takes away from the discussion when either side implies the other is brain-washed, disingenuous, or worse, resort to name calling. I think both sides are just passionate. I agree nothing is gained when people are simply trying to triumph over others they've made angry. Discussions (and discussors) are more credible to me when they are civil, which fortunately has been the case for most of...

i believe in global climate change-of which warming is a part-because i believe in science. unless the laws of physics and chemistry are completely wrong the amount of co2 in the atmosphere cannot double without causing warming. and the national oceanographic just announced that worldwide ocean temps have increased by one degree. oceans have always been known to be a lagging indicator so if they have begun to change-well hang onto your hat.

Olpea, actually, I've managed to change many folks minds about certain shortcomings of organic fruit production and the common perception of the dangerous nature of agricultural chemicals to personal health.

I can see the results of this by what customers ask me to do to their trees, although I can't be so sure of the results of posts I've made here on the subject, I'm pretty sure I've provided some useful information.

I do feel certain I've not changed anyone's minds on climate change here or anywhere else. It really just becomes a contest of dueling links and cherry picked data.

Originally I agreed with you- maybe the first couple of times this topic came up, but it comes around every few months and the same contributors pretty much communicate the same things, time after time.

If people want to learn about the science of climate change I don't see how this forum is the appropriate place to come with their questions. But if other members think it is, that's fine. I'm done.

Still don't know why you're still here?

I believe that climate change is happening - because it always has. Ist it warming or cooling? I don't know.
Is mankind significantly responsible? I don't know - but suspect minimally, if at all.
Can governmental taxation and regulation have an effect other than fouling things up worse and grinding progress to a standstill by crippling our economy? Probably not.
Can 'scientists' on either side of the issue be manipulated by threatened sanctions or withholding of funding? You betcha.
I prefer not to hand over autonomy and sovereignty to national/international governing bodies that have proven, time and again, that they don't really have our best interests at heart, but rather, just want to 'control' us.

I've been hedging my bets by planting fruit/nut producing plants suitable for 1-2 zones warmer AND colder than my own for 20 years. Some may or may not be suitable. Time will tell.

H'man,

You should be able to agree that calling for the BANNING of someone from the forum is a bit much and that name calling will change even less minds.

I think Olpea said it right. I object to the suggestion of banning someone (scary intolerance) and name the calling.

Just my 4 cents.

( Also, you know you're not "done" ðÂÂÂ.... Just have some fun. Don't worry, be happy)

Mike

Globull Warming was dreamed by some very smart people at Enron who had very little difficulty getting their political buddies in the USA and Europe to climb on board. Boiled down: a rent seekers scam plus a huge tax grab to burden the economy like never before.

The climate change agenda arguably has an epicenter - a place where policies flow downhill just like sewage flows downhill. That place is the United Nations.

About a year ago, and after finding out what the agenda entailed, Australian voters turned out in droves to reject climate change. Here is an article with abundant links for those interested in what the implementation of this agenda looks like.

Here is a link that might be useful: Australians reject climate change policy

But who cares about Australians? Swiss voters just concluded overwhelmingly that their gold is safest in the hands of other nations. Neither group may be very intelligent. Just give the scientific facts.

Change needs to come from the leaders..

Talking about Switzerland, ..on July 5th 1951, town of Niederflachs where Billy [age 14] went to school, he has seen all bad things coming and wrote a letter to all governments...

Billy Meier has seen all the problems at age 14, composed and formulated his letter in accordance with prophetic and predicting statements and explanations which had been presented to him by his fatherly friend Sfath.

Billyâ (BEAM), at 14 years of age, already wrote a long letter to those in charge in the world and made 3,000 copies (with the help of his teacher Gustav Lehmann) and sent it to all the governments of Earth as well as to decisive organisations, newspapers, journals and schools, and so forth, without ever receiving an answer to it and without anything being undertaken by those addressed in the letter.

10. To all those in charge in the world, Responsible for the welfare of the Earth and its entire humankind are, first and foremost - in addition to individual people of all nations - the authorities and their appointed governments; and to all those in charge of administration and governments, as well as to every single human being - I want to speak the following words of warning. My fatherly friend, Sfath, instructed me, by means of prohecy and prediction, in many kinds of things which will come about on Earth in the future and will bring unpleasant things.

More in link...

Here is a link that might be useful: Open Letter to all Human Beings of Earth (5th July, 1951)

"Whether I agree with the appropriateness of posting this subject on this forum or not... I cannot agree or condone the "banning" of anyone for doing so.
These who agree or disagree with the position are free to join in agreement or opposition. Those who feel it is a waste of their time can just ignore and not participate."

Mess, this is the orchard and fruits forum. This is not the climate debate forum - there are plenty of places for that. Somebody opens a thread like this each week, and there's always a big fight, nobody changes their mind either way, and it just hurts the forum.

It's trolling, pure and simple. There's no purpose, or use other than starting fights.

Joppa...,

We can agree to dis-agree.

All I am saying is that I see the reactions as being overly emotional and over the top. Sorry, but suggesting that someone be banned is just too much.

No one is forcing anyone to click and open a thread.

The subject of this thread was very clear from its title and was not some stealth attempt to force someone to engage. No one was forced to click to open and read it. Those interested could interact those who are not did not lose any time or effort.

I don't read every thread. by way of example I am not interested in paw paws or grapes so I don't open it. (no disrespect to those who are).

Mike

It's off topic, incendiary, and has no hope of changing anyone's mind one way or the other. It's spam.

At this point it's no different than starting a thread on religious views in this forum. (because that's pretty much what the climate change debate boils down to at this point)

It only becomes incendiary if people take the bait and respond exothermically.

A response of "ok... that's nice" would probably do more to quench the topic than name calling or banning demands.

Now.... don't get me started on that religion stuff and its effects on ... Oops!!,... as Roseann Rosanadana would say... "never mind".
(am I dating myself) :) :)

Mike

Hi there,
Saw this thread listed in the recent thread column and had to check it out. As many of you may know there is a forum here that specializes in controversial topics such as this one, it's called "Hot Topics". On average the climate change topic pops up often there and old threads can be easily searched for more info pro&con. Most topics there are political in nature but it does vary widely on topics, most of which relate to current events. Enjoy....

Here is a link that might be useful: Short cut to Hot Topics forum here @ GW

I think the most important issues are the ones that Lucky talked about, which unfortunately are mostly pushed to the periphery by overly simplistic questions. Thanks, Lucky.
-Eric

The problem with "global" warming is nothing on the planet lives according to the global average (plankton is the closest). If the Middle East desert gets 20ð hotter little to no life is threatened yet the average goes up. If the US, where much of the world's food is grown gets a little too cold to grow food the hotter already too hot to grow food desert cancels that out. That meaningless average is what the whole warming myth is based on.

Whenever I see averages thrown around it causes me to ask questions. Lies lies and statistics.
Change is going to happen. Warming should be expected since we are at the end of an ice age.

Politicizing the science assured science isn't going to happen.

DeGrasse-Tyson did change my mind/educate me on part of the topic, there is history to show warming could be catastrophic.
People on the internet calling names and claiming "all scientists (or 97%)" never have.