Dennis, I have Li jujube, and while it is plenty hardy for SE MI(it is a desert tree after all), the berries do not mature in time before first frost gets them.
They do change color from green to russet outside, but they stay light green (and sour) inside. Real jujubes are tart but a lot sweeter and plumpier than what I get. I let the squirrels have them. It is a good looking small tree, though, and nothing except shade bothers it.

Likewise, let me discourage you from getting a Japanese persimmon. For these, typically Zone 8 is the northern limit, and they will still do well in Zone 10. I used to have one when living in Zone 8 and it was great, being covered in sweet, bright fruits in November, leaves fallen, visible from far away. I would eat three a day (they are quite heavy to digest, possibly the heaviest fruit i have tried). As with jujube, nothing bothers this tree. But you have to be farther south.

Dennis, my impression is the problem with jujubes is not hardiness but getting fruit set in a cool spring and getting a long enough season to ripen them. I would try the earliest ripening jujube you can find. I think Li is one of the earliest.

For asian persimmons I would call up Edible Landscaping in Virginia, they are very experienced with this. There you also may need to pay attention to ripening times. My persimmons stay on the tree here until mid-November some years. EL will also give you good advice on the jujube.

Scott

glib, I didn't see your reply when I posted, I had an old view. I would say there is a decent chance Dennis could ripen jujubes in a hot sunny location. Re: the asian persimmons, there are several people posting here in zone 6 trying asian persimmons with different degrees of success. Do make sure to pay attention to ripening times. It is very frustrating to wait several years and get a beautiful load of fruit which never makes it all the way. I have that right now on my fuzzy kiwis.

Scott

I haven't had much success with jujubes. My Li has died to the ground couple years in a row, so I'm guessing its just a rootstock now. My Qiyue Xian also died back its first winter in the ground, but it didn't die back below the graft. I bought a couple more this year, and not going to buy anymore until they can prove to be more than a perennial shrub.
On a positive note, my che didn't have any dieback its first winter.

Dennis,
I'm not much of a student of geography, but there's a NAFEX member in Red Lion, PA who's been growing and fruiting Great Wall and Sheng for decades now. I was thinking that he considered himself to be in a zone 5 location.
Saijo is another one that is pretty well documented to do just fine throughout zone 6.
The Russian D.virginianaXkaki hybrid, Rosseyanka, is fully hardy and very productive in Terre Haute IN, zone 5. Fruits are most reminiscent of an astringent-til-ripe D.kaki, both in flavor and consistency.

Dennis,
I'm not much of a student of geography, but there's a NAFEX member in Red Lion, PA who's been growing and fruiting Great Wall and Sheng for decades now. I was thinking that he considered himself to be in a zone 5 location.
Saijo is another one that is pretty well documented to do just fine throughout zone 6.
The Russian D.virginianaXkaki hybrid, Rosseyanka, is fully hardy and very productive in Terre Haute IN, zone 5. Fruits are most reminiscent of an astringent-til-ripe D.kaki, both in flavor and consistency.

I certainly have no problems with persimmons like Jiro, Ichi Ki Kei Jiro here in zone 6B. They can be harvested before first real frost (end of October/early November). I don't consider a touch of freeze on the ground like we experience every night this week a real frost..
Olga

On my multi grafted Jujube tree, Li is probably the earliest. There's a chance that you don't have the true variety.

Persimmons, I agree with Lucky, Saijo, Great wall, Sheng and the hybrid Russyanka will do fine here.

Bass

OK, follow up question. If I try some of these again, either jujube or persimmmons or both, are there any special tips or techniques to try to get them through the first few winters, when I assume they would be most vulnerable to damage or death from the cold?

Especially on the persimmons, should I make sure they are grafted onto American persimmon rootstock as oppossed to D. lotus rootstock, which I assume isn't nearly as hardy?

I do have a sheltered microclimate in the front, southern side of my house where I could plant 2 smaller trees -- they would get full sun from about 8 am to about 6 pm in the summertime, and all day (as much as there is, anyway) in the winter, since the building is aligned pretty much east to west, with a garage extending out a bit on the western side. This would be good for the jujubes, I think. Soil there is pretty decent, a sandy loam. At least in this location, they would

I've got a Tam Kam Korean persimmon here in zone 6, the Lehigh Valley of Pennsylvania. It has made it through two winters undamaged. Last year I got two fruits and left them on until early November. This spring I moved it to a sunnier spot. All the fruit dropped this year, but I'm sure it's pretty well established now, so I have high hopes for next year. It's about 4 feet tall.

One reason I picked this variety is because it is supposed to have great orange fall color. Unfortunately, the leaves turn brown and fall off after a frost, which has always come before any sign of fall color :(

Alex

I've got three jujube's, two of which were planted in 07. I had originally requested one variety, but another was substituted. Actually, my second choice was sent (a very healthy looking plant, as well as a very small plant of the variety I had originally wanted. (I was very impressed and surprised).

The stronger plant has grown well, and survived last winter with no protection at all. The other plant stayed small and I feared I had lost it over the winter (and ordered a replacement, hence the third variety). When removing the presumed dead plant I noticed the roots looked good and I replanted it in another place. It grew a new shoot right from the graft, so it could be the variety or the rootstock.

I do also have a 3 year old Kaki Persimmon. (Ichi Ke Kei Jiro from Edible Landscaping) The first year I protected it with a Tubex shelter (which might have been a mistake). It came through the winter with a little dieback, but only at the tips. Its growth has been sluggish, but this year it has grown very well and it flowered this spring. The fruit didn't develop, but I am optimistic about next year!

lkz5ia. (and Deninmi as well)..My Che hasn't suffered any dieback in the past 3 years, unfortunately it too has not started bearing yet. I haven't even seen anything resembling flowers on this particular tree either.

~Chills (in zone 6b Michigan)

Thanks, Chills, I'm an ardent fan of your persimmon tree there, I'm most interested in following its adventures, so please keep us advised as the seasons progress, same for your jujubes.

Che is the third thing I tried years ago (probably in the early 1990's) with no luck, planted two, but they didn't come through the first winter. They were really small plants, less than two feet tall. I bought them from Oregon Exotics, which is now defunct -- they were calling them 'Mandrin Melon Berry,' but I'm SURE this is the same thing -- it was described as closely related to Osage Orange and having red, soft, berry-like lumpy fruits after the leaves fall in the autumn.

I've been looking at the offerings of several companies, including Edible Landscaping in Virginia, Burnt Ridge in Washington State, and One Green World in Oregon. All of them have various jujubes and persimmons (as well as Che), and some of the cultivars sound promising. I just have to give this one more try next year.

Dennis
SE Michigan

Move to Pennsylvania!

"Move to Pennsylvania!"

OK, but I hope you can help me dig up my garden and bring it with me. Hope you've got a BIG shovel and a BIG truck!

So, I placed a couple of orders for next spring. Nikita's Gift, Rossenyanka, and Saijo persimmons, and 'Mango Don' and 'Li' Jujube's, along with the Che tree. Off and running, wish me luck.

Anyone know where I can get 'Great Wall' persimmon and 'Qiyue Xian' jujube?

Dennis,

I recently visited a small (1-2 acre) persimmon orchard in Maryland, about 30 miles south of Washington Dc (zone 7b?). I cannot recall the variety being grown, but it was non-astringent. In any event, the grower had grafted the Asian persimmons onto American ones, but not in the way standardly done in nursery stock you buy. He would plant (around this time) 3 or 4 seeds a couple of inches in the ground. In the spring he would then select for the strongest young plants and pull up the others. He would then let the American persimmons grow for a few years, and graft the asian persimmons onto them at a height of 3 to 4 feet. The rationale for this was to avoid winter kill, which he held was much more common when Asian persimmons are grafted low to the rootstock just above the ground (where frost is coldest). Another advantage was that the American persimmons would sucker and put out branches, giving plenty of opportunities to make multiple grafts, thus maximizing the chances that at least one of them would take.

The Qiyue Xian is offered by places like one green world, burntridge, and raintree. Didn't see it listed though currently on burntridge(that's where I got it). Looks like the cultivar sells under the the trademarked name autumn beauty.

My male che has flowered both years that I've had it and haven't had my female che flower yet. I have to keep cutting back the osage orange that is coming up under the graft.

Dennis,
'Nikita's Gift' is a seedling offspring of Rosseyanka, backcrossed to D.kaki, and is more winter-tender than Rosseyanka. Jerry Lehman has it growing at Terre Haute, and likes the fruit better than that of Rosseyanka, but it is frequently damaged by their typical winter low temps. If you're going to try it, I'd certainly put it in the most protected spot you have available; subzero temps, especially below -10F, will probably cause some twig/branch dieback.

I have a question for those who grow great wall persimmon. About 10 years ago I planted great wall from edible landscaping and it grew and finally fruited. The problem I had with this variety was that the fruits would retain a little astringency even when mushy soft. This is the only variety I have ever noticed this problem. Does anyone have any ideas why this would have been? This was my earliest ripening and most ornamental variety but I recently removed it because of this problem.

Hi,
Just read these posts after reading Lee Reich's book Uncommon Fruits Worthy of Attention. He talks about Jujube being capable of growing in zone 4 (where I am and he's just a little south of here in New Paltz, NY). He suggests choosing a good microcliamate on the south side and ripening fruit in a sealed plastic container with a ripe apple. He mentions Li and Lang cultivars as good.

Any chance you might trade some jujube cuttings? I could send seeds (now) or cuttings (in spring) of highbush cranberries, a truly beautiful bush, 8' tall, reddish-green tri-lobed leaves, large whorls of white flowers setting to white fruits that change to yellow and finally red. Good for sauce or jam.

Please email me at BC08@localnet.com if interested (that's a zero as the third alphanum in BC08).
Thanjs - Bill

you might also look at
http://www.justfruitsandexotics.com/Persimmons.htm
for a good selection

Just a note - that jujube has the meanest thorns of any living thing I know. I planted one against a south-facing wall, but after several encounters with it, I pruned the branches high - to avoid running into those durned thorns!

It hasn't produce much in the way of fruit here in zone 10, not yet, but as mean as it is, I'm sure it will probably thrive.

Just my 2 c's.

Bejay

Matt_Ohio -- I actually already ordered and received two trees from Just Fruits and Exotics. I wanted to get a 'Great Wall' but that variety is sold out until fall of 2009. I ended up ordering 'Patapsco' and 'Tam Kam' -- God help me. They're overwintering in my marginally heated attached garage, where I keep them temps around 40 all winter. I overwinter potted figs, olives, palms, etc., in there every winter, so the trees will do fine there until spring.

I should comment that the people at Just Fruits and Exotics were really helpful, and the plants were packaged very securely and are by far the nicest mail-order persimmons I've ever received -- about 4 feet tall and very healthy looking, compared to the six inch sticks many nurseries ship out.

However, I was out last Sunday plowing my foot of snow in air temps of around 1-2 degrees Fahrenheit, in 40 mph winds with windchills around -25, and I thought to mys

Well -- it cut off half of my post. I meant to say:

"I thought to myself -- this is nuts, this will never work!"

So, I guess I have to decide whether to try an outdoor planting strategy in a sheltered microclimate, or just try to grow these as potted plants and overwinter like the figs.

If I were to try outdoors, I'm consedering trying to grow them as espaliers along the south wall of the house. I could then make a big insulated panel cover to go over them in the winter, which would trap some of the heat from the building and boost the minimum temps. But, I don't know if that would also trap moisture in the walls and cause structural problems with the house? And, it would definitely be an invitation to those darned voles, which are the bane of my garden anyway.

I guess I have plenty of time to think about it, at least until spring rolls around here in April.

Dennis
SE Michigan

My Ichi-Ke-Kei Jiro had some freeze damage from this past winter. My lowest temperature was -7 F and it occurred on two consecutive nights. I lost about 12 inches from the top of the leader, but new growth will quickly replace that. (actually the way it was growing I would have liked to have removed that growth anyway as it was leaning the tree towards the nearby sidewalk and kids already were frequently pulling leaves and such from it).

My jujube's (two previous to this spring) both seemed to have taken a little damage from the winter as well. One, So, lost about 1/2 of its smaller contorted branching, but otherwise seems fine. The other, Shanxi Li, has developed long vertical splits along the bark below the graft (but none above) due to uneven heating I'm assuming. The damage was not aparent before the spring weather set it, and likely formed after the winter cold had really ended. I'm thinking I will need to paint the park of at least that variety.

A new Jujube I planted this spring already has flowers forming (though I do not yet see buds on the other varieties). I also added a jujube and an American Persimmon at my MIL's house (she gave me free reign to garden there to my heart's content as I have pretty much run out of room at my own house).

A fig that I was trying a new means of protection upon (my biggest and only outdoor year round variety) suffered an attack of voles which seem to have destroyed or severly weakened most mature growth (which is a shame as I thought I had an easier way of protecting the fig).

~Chills
SE Michigan as well

Hi Chills, I planted an Ichi last year from Starkbros, and it growth about 2.5 feet tall. The temp drop to -7 degree a couple of times. The tree lost about two feet from the top of the leader. I Just checked and the new growth started above the graft with three new branches and it really taken off. Should I prune back to just one branch or keep all three branches? Should I protect this new growth this coming winter by packing it with dry leaves from top to bottom?

Thanks

Thanks for the update on your trees, Chills.

If you ever go over to the Palms and Cycads forum, check out the awesome photos and posts by Artictropic from Utah. He's grown these totally awesome and massive palms in Zone 4, mountainous/high altitude Utah north of Salt Lake City using foamboard boxes and a few cfc lightbulbs for warmth. I think this method would work great for persimmons and jujubes as well. Of course, there is still the VOLE issue to contend with.

My yard was about the coldest in 5 years, too. Most of my things came through with about average damage. My sequoia looks worse than normal, but is recovering. My two 'E. H. Wilson' mimosa trees are questionable. They are pushing a FEW small buds, but I am not sure if they are going to make it, or if I'll have to cut them off and let them grow back from the root system. We need some summer heat to conteract that winter cold.

Denninmi,

Did your Great Wall/Tam Kam fruited this yr? I am in Detroit and wonder if these work out in our area. Thanks-Shone