BIG, BIG ERROR about the formation of the tufa. The "mono lake tufa" article states that tufa forms only under water.The most common formations for tufa are in caves. In the limestone rocks the rainwater and undersurface water washes out the minerals , forms the caves. More water saturates the rocks, dripping water with more minerals at one locations, building up the towers or hanging down different formations. Didn't you read Mark Twain's Tom Sawyer? If you did, you remember!

Andrea

Belgianpup, your definitions are needed here. We make HYPERTUFA objects, we use the the word TUFA for short, but we try to copy the look of LIMESTONE, not tufa. Am I correct?

Andrea

From all the foregoing, it sounds - (since Tufa Rock seems to be essentially calcium carbonate, and since coral is also, I think, mainly calcium carbonate) - that coral can be considered as part of the family of rocks called Tufa Rock & used in much the same way as other forms of Tufa Rock?

Perhaps most peoples' aim, when making Hypertufa, is simply to produce something with a colour & surface texture resembling natural Tufa - though I should think it would be difficult to make hypertufa that really looked like coral?

But I wonder if we need worry much about an exact definition? It seems a bit like trying to define 'bread'. There's the sort of dense caraway rye that they make in Poland; there's 'flat' bread that they make in Lebanon; there are crispy French baguettes - they're all 'bread' but they're not much alike. Even those ready-sliced white loaves that they sell in supermarkets are called 'bread'......

I think a few people are missing my point.

I'm not trying to come up with the ultimate definition of hypertufa for every object known to man, at all points in time, every spot in the universe, and under all conditions.

I was hoping to come up with a reasonably simple definition for US, this group at this particular forum.

We have people who are using a combo of cement, perlite, sand and water and calling it tufa. I don't care what you want it to look like, if you want to paint it, stain it, seal it, attach small rodents to it, or send it to the moon.

I would simply like to be able to understand people's questions. And the answer would depend on what they are doing. Do you really think the answer for a tufa question is the same as for a concrete question?

You do? REALLY??? Then please make a point of not answering any of my questions!

Sue

Herb, I hate to argue with you, but because the corals are calciumcarbonate deposits, they origin or formation totally different fron the tufa rocks, you can't consider it the same.

Think about the element C (carbon) : comes in 3 different forms, DIAMOND, COAL and GRAFIT(in pencils). But what a difference!!!

Andrea

I've been looking for a description of Tufa Rock, and according to this one, Tufa is "a soft, white, porous rock of calcium carbonate....." But I don't see anything to indicate that it contains anything much that's organic.

Ordinary concrete certainly isn't soft or porous, so I agree that we shouldn't think of in the same category as hypertufa. I suggest thought, that hypertufa as we use the word means not that it must have organic materials in it, but rather that it must be comparatively soft and porous? What do you think?
Click here & then scroll down for the description

I agree with you Herb.
I love what peat does to the appearance but I use it mostly in tufa topping with a stronger mix under it. This allows me to use a lot of peat on the surface for that soft look.

I, for one, have been reluctant to refer to any of my projects as anything but tufa because I was afraid that such posts wouldn't be allowed on the forum. While my starting point was hypertufa, it wasn't going to do what I wanted as a finished product. However, the people who are most likely to provide answers are on this forum, not garden accoutrements. Does it bother you to cover both lightweight concrete and tufa? Or are you annoyed at those of us who've branched out to other things?

I'm not sure how the group as a whole feels but I received an email within a hour of posting pictures here of my first project telling me it wasn't tufa and that I should find a concrete group.
Needless to say I don't post pictures anymore.:)

When this forum was created, it would have made a lot more sense to call it Hypertufa and Concrete, or something like that. But that didn't happen, and it's not going to change, so we deal with it as it is.

I think anyone can work with anything they please, including river clay and mud pies, and talk about it here.

My whole POINT, which some people seem to keep skipping over, is to be able to understand what each of us is talking ABOUT.

Concrete, no matter what form, or how porous, is concrete. It isn't hypertufa. It isn't papercrete. It isn't terra cotta or stoneware or plaster or candle wax. If you add organic materials, it isn't concrete.

What's so difficult to understand about this???

Sue

Exactly,Sue.And,perhaps,not so much for those of us who are,oh,let's call it experienced,but rather people who are so very new and wide-eyed about this fun addiction that we all have.So,let's draw this thread to a close on positive notes and go with your first post.After all,it ain't rocket science...just tufa and its close relatives!!

Sue,

You say - "Concrete, no matter what form, or how porous, is concrete............ If you add organic materials, it isn't concrete."

It may be that adding organic materials to concrete mix prevents the resulting casting being 'concrete' - but how does it follow that adding inorganic materials to concrete mix prevents it from being Hypertufa?

You seem to be saying that no matter how much a mix produces a casting that resembles real Tufa Rock (which has no, or negligible, organic content) we shouldn't call it Hypertufa unless it has a substantial organic content, preferably peat moss.

Sorry, but I just don't follow that line of reasoning.

Herb

Sue, I agree 100%.

Herb, I think the line of reasoning: a special mixture what contains cement and organic material called HYPERTUFA. Maybe the name is not really good, but it was named this way, we like it or not. An other mixture what contains cement and anorganic material called CONCRETE.With both of them we can do art, craft, fake rock,fake marble , fake tufa rock, etc... as you like it.
But it is very important to know what are we talking about, because they have different qualities, densities, life time, etc...

Andrea

I'll settle for this definition.

Here is a link that might be useful: Hypertufa defined.

Another definition. No mention of organics.

"Hypertufa" is a mix invented for making porous artificial rocks for gardens- they won't last forever, but they provide a good surface for moss to grow on. The recipe calls for 1 part portland cement,1 part sharp sand,1 or 2 parts peat or peat substitute

Here is a link that might be useful: Concrete Sculpture FAQ

OKAY, FOLKS, LET'S JUST FORGET IT!

Let's just continue as we were, with one person talking about one thing, and another talking about another.

Since some of you simply can't grasp the idea that there is a difference between materials and how they're used, it is pointless to continue trying to engrave the final, absolute definition of hypertufa in stone.

Whenever I ask a question or attempt to answer one, I'll just try to remember to preface EVERY SINGLE POST with an offer or request for an ingredient list so I'll know what I'm talking about!

There! That will simplify everything, won't it???

Sheesh!

Sue

I one of the few here that actually does consistantly make people aware of the difference between tufa, concrete and premixes, and what you can and cannot do with tufa. Or at least should do with other materials for good results.
Casting leaves is a good example.
I'm consistantly told I'm wrong.:)

Sue, as I read the comments, my impression is that we all agree with you.Wikipedia's definition (by tufaenough) is not complete, not better just because it is on the Internet.. Yours is very simple,logical,points to the most important part, organic material what can break down and makes the characteristic,porous look, this is HYPERTUFA. I hope that most of us will use your definitions, but don't hold your breath!

Andrea

Who's going to be first to tell the folks in the
Hypertufa as building facade? thread.;)

Hello everyone. I've been lurking for a while, reading and enjoying ALL the posts in this group. Trying to define things can be as fun as trying to nail jello to a tree. It can be done just make your mix stiff enough, but is that really jello according to directions on the box? I've been working stone since 1989. It usually falls into 3 categories, Limestone, Granite and Marble. This is to simplify it for most people. I know from my experience and study that there are MANY types of stone and they all have different properties. I've become very interested in "hypertufa" as a medium to create in, fairly recently. What I've learned is that its a mix made with "alternative aggregates" to make a product to look aged quickly. Peat or anything else added to cement is an aggregate. Concrete people will argue with you till the end of time about the addition of vermiculite and/or perlite, even though it's inorganic, and calling it concrete.
What I'm trying to get at is, you/we may not be able to settle on hardend terms to define this medium. I hate the name Hypertufa too. Why not call it Faux Tufa? I can see some anger showing up because we cant all agree on certain terms. I hope this doesn't disintergrate into that.

I think those of us that use cement as an ingredient, mix it in such a way as to suit a certain purpose. I don't use peatmoss in cast leaves or I would lose strength and the detail, I use peatmoss in troughs because I want that "old roughed up by time" look. Many times I wish this forum was called "Things made with cement in the mix" and it would include everything. But I find it impossible to just stick with the hypertufa mix 1:1:1 for all I want to do, and am appreciative for those who tolerate us when we share things made from cement, even if they fall short of the hypertufa recipe.

Sue,
I appreciate your effort at trying to define and help others understand that there are different recipes and different purposes.
Now to everyone on this forum;
I have found lately that almost no matter what is posted in this forum that it has becomes a BIG debate and has distracted from the real reason I come here, to share and understand how I can apply ideas, designs, mixes (OMG did I say that?) and what worked and what didn't, not to DEBATE I don't like DEBATES!!!!
Some of the confusion lies in the name of the forum and at the time this 'forum' separated from garden accoutrements and garden junk, there was one of the biggest DEBATERS out there, fortunately that person has her own site and can debate and expound all they want, ok so no I have detracted from why I started.
I enjoy playing and experimenting with concrete mixes and lightweight concrete mixes. I have found over time that I seldom refer to hypertufa any longer, unless I am teaching how to make "hypertufa pots" (then the debate is what makes a pot different than a trough)(and I don't care really). I make a very short discussion about all the options out there, and have even suggested this forum as a friendly place to ask more, however...........
It is overwhelming the information out there and in here.
When I post something I have tried to identify what the mix is by ingredients that I have used.

Sue cheers to you for trying to define and try and bring order back to here.

Nuffsaid on my part and happy casting to all, whatever mix you use!!!!
Dena

Defining Hypertufa is completely irrelevent.
It is what it is in the minds of everyone.
Newbies are almost never told when they start talking about making a project that tufa might not be the best choice.
I have never read a single post here where anyone has recommended 'light weight concrete', instead of tufa, other than me.:)

Tufaenough - Don't feel alone - I use the expression 'light weight concrete' too. So far as we a great many people are concerned, it's synonymous with 'hypertufa'.

The bottom line is that we're all working with Portland cement as the binder.

Herb I think what is important is when a newbie says they are about to embark on a hypertufa project but are unsure how to proceed that we find out what they think hypertufa is, and respond accordingly.
Sue is right about one thing, when you talk to people about tufa recipes Portlands and peatmoss are generally the first two ingredients mentioned by the vast majority.
If someone wants to make a trough from peat moss and Portlands I think it's great but there is no harm in pointing out that using other materials can get the same and often better results.
I hate to see newbies drop by and make a few posts about their first trough disaster and then we never hear from them again.
Like all things in life a great first experience can make the world of difference.

So any advice I have to offer is based on trying to help new folks to the hobby avoid disapointment.
Definitions don't matter to me.
It's all Crete to me.:)

TE,
perhaps you got the words "light weight concrete" from one of my webshots. Here is one that I did 3/04. Do the words ring any bells?
you profess to not care about definition and then, well ahhhhh the debate.
Happy casting in whatever form you decide works best for you.
Dena

Here is a link that might be useful: All lightweight concrete behind the fence

Here is a list of several thousand websites that talk about light weight concrete. Which one is yours again?:)

I use the term 'Tufa' and will continue to do so.

I'm of the opinion a definition for Quikrete would end far more confusion in this group than a definition of Hypertufa.:)

Here is a link that might be useful: Light weight concrete

But TE, which one is yours in that search? That's odd, because I can think of quite a few times when people are given the advice to use other mixtures than "'tufa", depending on what their application is and this was long before you were here. In fact, a lot of those sites on your search have been linked to and reviewed over and over again in here for at least three years that I know of. I think Dena has done quite a few projects which span quite a few of those applications and has given good advice on what has worked for her which has been actual experience, not theory. The name of the forum may be a little deceiving at first but I think the advice from those that have done this stuff for awhile has been solid.

Maybe people come and go because their interest wanes or their priorities change, not necessarily because something has crumbled on them--I'd like to meet the "immortal one" that hasn't had a little "break and crumble" in their lifetime. Everybody has some flops with it in whatever the application but that doesn't mean its because they haven't received some pretty good advice from SEVERAL people here, not just one.

TE, Are you willing to share your recipe for hypertufa? lightweight concrete? That might help resolve all of this. Or not.
:) Dena

My favorite site is the first one listed on your link TE. Flying concrete, now that is a concept. The site is wonderful!!!
I hope everyone takes the opportunity to review some delightful fantasy packed and functional pieces by Steve K. at Flying Concrete.
Steve uses ightweight concrete mixes for houses and surrounding structures that get the imagination thinking.
Way to go! :)
And believe it or not sometimes he uses a mix that is 1cement to 8 (lightweight)aggregate, and NO admix, fortifier, fibers, or bonder, just water as the liquid. Often the mixes are done by hand as power either is not accessible or has not been brought in. Many of the colors he uses are applied after and are latex paints, (oops another post).
Dena

Tufaenough, I'm curious why you keep pretending to know this medium when you started making hypertufa piece in February or March of this year. The only picture I've seen you post, and that was under your other name, was your tri-color bowl with stand. People come on the forum asking for advice and you're posting on everything without having any experience. We come here to relax, exchange ideas and get advice for our projects. Not to hear sarcasm or read a post thinking that it's experience talking and it's just another person that's new to the medium.
Sue, Sorry to jump on your thread. Billie

When I was so ill, the one site I "grazed" was this one, because everyone--Dena, Marly, Tufa God Peat, Billie, etc...(I don't mean to leave out any of you) is so generous with information and shortcuts or sources to help eachother enjoy this art form. Having spent my life in an academic setting, where everything is reductionistic and defined, I understand a wish to codify or define terms, but, frankly, when people need more information, they ask for it---and the generous artists supply it. I hope that no one feels like they can't post a picture --that deprives me--and I would be appalled if anyone sent a message that implied that a contributor should "get out" or go elsewhere. My goodness, the mistakes that I've made have been the source of laughter; that is as it should be. And the best thing about this forum is its goodwill.

Heehoo - I agree with you entirely. Until now, this forum has been exceptionally courteous and friendly. It is a pity that anybody should be discouraged from posting a picture, and even more regrettable when a poster stoops to a personal attack on another poster.

Wow, the tufa's starting to hit the fan now! Maybe this is where the "hyper" part came into being :) :) :)

I personally get enough definitions and exact measurements at work. It's nice for me to just use dabs of THIS and pinches of THAT. I tend to call the end product hypertufa, just as a thousand other recipes can be called concrete. That being said, I get the feeling that the spirit of the term hypertufa was intended for the mix that resembled tufa, which usually would require organics. If someone wanted to name each recipe they would sure have a rough time of it trying to keep up with the creative concoctions I've seen here :)

I think beginners are best served by starting with the standard recipes in the FAQ and broadening out from there. From my own experience, it seems people here love to help others get to know this medium, and the more details in your question, the more help you get back. That's why it doesn't pay to lurk forever...

I think it's totally unacceptable that someone would have the gall to tell anyone that they couldn't post a picture that had anything near what this forum is doing--I don't know of anyone here with that authority except Spike &thegang. I can't understand that though because so many have posted pictures, and have been doing so for quite awhile, that range from anything regarding various mixtures to armatures to papercrete, etc. TE may has "inflamed" someone with some of the cutsey (sarcastic) :) remarks that tend to follow several posters replies in here. Not that it's acceptable but could there be more to this than just a random assault on someone's picture. I think for the most part that everyone wants to get along in here but then it gets old seeing people's input surly and repeatedly assaulted with slights that are right under the radar--and then, of course, some that aren't under the radar but end up getting the thread cleared off the board.

rustinj , I know that our work has many similar fields,but for me the definition, the understanding, the logic and the reason behind everything is very important.
Now I know why my "use dabs of THIS and pinches of THAT" ended in disaster sometimes.

I am very grateful and appreciate Sue's time and effort to help to understand all this different mixtures and the nomenclature.

The term HYPERTUFA is not mandatory. You can call your mud tufa, lihgt weight concrete, concrete or even little darling, just easier to communicate in the same language.

Andrea

Wow, now I'm becoming afraid to post in this forum. Is it because I'm inexperienced and therefore have nothing to offer and I can only ask questions of the experienced people? It's been my experience that even though we are all experienced at something, we all can learn something, somewhere,somehow IF we remain open. This seems to be a medium that can be mastered rather quickly because of the wealth of information on the web about it, not just in this forum. I thought that's what forums were all about,a place for all to share. It's the nuances that make this medium and all of life fun. I hope more tolerance can be had here and if not, then there are other places that can be accessed. Thank you all for the information you are willing to share, whatever your level of experience.

Hi Dave
Your first tufa faux bois carving is a terrific top quality piece of work.
I don't thing you'd have to take a back seat in this group or anywhere else.
You could teach the subject.:)
Everytime I hit a piece a tufa with a hammer it breaks.

Andrea, I hope my post wasn't read as belittling Sue's efforts. I completely agree with her definition. Afterall, my dabs and pinches needed a point of reference :) I was hoping to lighten the mood of the thread a bit...it's getting a little thick in here.

TE, where did you find Dave's pics? You got me all curious, but I couldn't find any :(

Try here. The planter is 13" tall by 11" across. The bud vase is about 8" tall and made around a hot sauce bottle

Here is a link that might be useful: Rockhewers first 'Tufa

tufaenough -

Your remark about tufa breaking every time you hit it with a hammer reminds me of the very first time I tried to make 'tufa - but the result was different.

I'd mixed the dry ingredients - 1/4 portland and 3/4 peat moss I think it was - and then added about the same amount of water as if I were mixing ordinary concrete.

It immediately soaked up the water so that all I had was a very dry-looking crumble. Not a bit like a concrete mix. So, I added lots more water & it got too sloppy. So I added more Portland. And then a bit more peat moss. And so on.... I then decided that the solution must be more Portland, so I added Portland until I got a fairly stiff mix.

When I took the casting out of the mold it certainly felt lighter that regular concrete. Being curious to see how strong this Hypertufa stuff was, I hit it with a hammer. All it did was it made a dent. I tried hitting it with a sledgehammer. It still wouldn't break - all I got was a bigger dent.

I still can't decide what the final proportions of peat moss and Portland were. Maybe it was 2 Portland to 1 peat moss........!

Herb

Justin, don't worry, I understand you. Your comment was very fair, actually you turned off the fan.The point is, I'm not as artistic as you, nor can I spend as much time experimenting with different mixtures as others . I'm very happy to use help, advice and learn from mistakes.

Rockhewer, don't be afraid to post, nobody was beheaded or sent to their room. By the way, your contribution to this forum is terrific - as your picture shows.

To all- enjoy your time in the mudhole!

Andrea

Thanks, Andrea! I tend learn everything the hard way, so I should pay a little more attention to the recipes...then again, it doesn't quite stick until I re-discover it for myself :)

Rock, those are fantastic pieces!!! I assume by your user name that you must have some experience working with stone? If so, I have to wonder if you're tempted to wait for the tufa to cure before working it? Justin

This forum is to ask and learn, but personally I don't give a darn what they call it(whoever they are) I read and look and learn, doesn't matter if it is named tufa,hypertufa,concrete, or crete! I haven't seen many familiar names here lately, but since I joined the GW this was the friendliest forum I have visited,seems like people are getting a bit testy here also, not that it really matters, I will still have a look any chance I get, and I have gathered some great ideas from all the people here. Kinda off subject, but just wanted to throw in a couple lines.
bonnie :-)

Don't you all remember when posters who showed their creations automatically listed the ingredience and proportions that went into their project? I have noticed lately that this important bit of info is usually missing and I think it is usually an interesting bit of info. We should try to remember to include this. I have noticed some people are not using organics which has inspired me to experiment a bit more. I think it is a privalege to have posters who only work in concrete and I have learned so much more because of them. Just look at Tango and his work, strictly concrete. Let's just all get along and let our mutual love of concrete link us all together (like a good admix). NOW KISS AND MAKE UP! :)
Herb, I want that rubber tufa recipe!

Jo

Jo - It wasn't exactly rubber because the dents stayed in place!! Unfortunately all I remember is that I kept adding more water and more Portland till I got something like a very thick cake mix ready to bake..... It could have been Portland and peat moss 50% each, or even 75% Portland and 25% peat moss.....

Apropos non-organic mixes, I'm going to try 20% Portland and 80% Copper slag grit: I want to see what the result looks like.

Herb

Hi Herb
I made a 20% Portland 80% Copper slag stepping stone but I also added black pigment.
It's pretty dark.:)

Hey, Herb your mix sounds like mine. Most the time I don't post a recipe (unless I use a premix) because my mixes are never the same. I start out with the classic 1 Portland 1 sand 1 peat 1 something else, but then I always add a little of this, a little of that, until I don't even know what I got.
I personally want to see everyoneÂs pictures; I don't care if it's made out of oatmeal. Any thing is a source of inspiration. Flying concrete is a good example. I personally never plan on building a house, but if it inspires one person, then that person inspires someone else etc etc.
Just ignore the very few rude people out there. There is lots of good will here to make up for it.

Dixiesmom

HELP! I KEEP SEEING ALL THE DIFFERENT RECIPES. I CHOSE 1 AND STARTED. IN A EFFORT TO KEEP COST DOWN I FOUND A WEBSITE THAT HAS RECYCLED BEAN BAG PELLETS. DOES ANYONE THINK THIS MIGHT WORK INSTEAD OF PERLITE. THE FIRST BAG I PURCHASED WAS $28 FOR A 2CUFT BAG. THEN I FOUND IT FOR $18. THE RECYCLED STUFF IS $11. ANY FEED BACK APPRECIATED.

read my answer for your question on all the other postings you asked.

NO, YOU CANT SUBSTITUTE PERLITE OR VERMICULATE WITH STYROFOAM!!!!!!!!!