breaking dormancy - effect of rootstock (persimmon)

12 years ago

A couple years ago I planted 4 persimmon seeds (D. virginiana) where I wanted a persimmon tree. One of them is now leafing out, while the others appear completely dormant. They are within a 2 or 3 foot circle, so I doubt microclimate is the reason, and am guessing that it's just genetic variation. I'm now wondering, if I graft the same variety on all of them, would the rootstock influence when the grafted portion breaks dormancy? In other words, would the graft on the early growing rootstock also start growing earlier than a graft on one of the later growing seedlings?

This could have important consequences for those of us growing Asian persimmons where late frosts can be a problem, especially in a year like this. My Tam Kam is starting to leaf out, but the last frost date is a month away.

I'll graft at least a couple of them and see next year if there is any difference, but I am curious if anyone has insight on this.

Alex

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Comments (3)

canadianplant
12 years ago
Grafting does 2 things:

1 - The rootstock gives growing characteristics, such as disease resistance, size, hardiness, suckering, etc.

2 - THe scion gives the fruit characteristics, such as taste, size, etc.

It may be variation of the seedlings, but you could have also lost a few (it happens). You sure the buds are alive on the "dormant" ones? If youre worried about late frost, id graft on the later leafing rootstock, to help delay flowering time (another reason people choose certain rootstock).

As far as I know, you only worry abou tfruit type in regards to scion, the root stock does the rest.
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creekweb
12 years ago
The phenomenon that you are witnessing is very real and can be an important determinant in the cold hardiness of grafted Asian persimmon trees. I have reada couple of anecdotal accounts of this and see it in my orchard on a yearly basis - some American persimmon trees break dormancy several weeks later than others and do this consistently from year to year. I have a tree from EL that consistently shows some frost damage on the leaves after budbreak during a normal year; this year the tree leafed out earlier than the others and is now toast after a 25F exposure. Most of the other trees I grafted myself onto rootstock that I know to be late in breaking dormancy and none of these show any foliage damage. The latest breaking American persimmons have in my experience been from the Morris Burton lineage and these are just now showing the earliest signs of breaking bud.
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Even when potted first, I have lost persimmons in the pots. They grew, then shriveled and died out. I am strongly suspecting that those fiasco has to do with very ignorant propagators not knowing about the compatibility issues of some kaki cultivars on D. virginiana rootstocks. The bare-rooting process has pushed it over the edge, and so no matter how careful you are, they could die. These propagators should at least check the databases for compatibility issues, but what can you expect if they only know of two types of persimmons: Fuyu, the non-astringent types, and Hachiya as the astringent types. Persimmons are one of the more expensive fruit trees to buy compared to pomes and stones, and so I keep an extra eye out when monitoring these pricey items when growing, and the care I gave them just to establish them initially. So I know very well when they die out on me.
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I am pretty new with the gardening and I have a Fuyu and an Izu planted this spring. The Fuyu started to leaf out about a month ago but all of its few leaves dried out completely after a few days. The Izu has been a bare stick with not even a single bud getting any bigger. I guess the threshold for the number of heat units passed a long time ago here in NC, where we have had 90+ degrees pretty much every day for the last couple of months. Both trees still have green tissue under the bark, and *both* have just started to leaf out *from the rootstock*. I read that all of those leaves should be removed. Is there any other recommendation anyone can give? What could happen with the Fuyu that it has lost all the new leaves and is there still any hope in it? My other new trees seem to feel happy with the same watering schedule etc.
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Thanks, Tony and Creek, for the replies. Creek, what about kaki seedlings do you find makes them harder to work with? And I don't understand why a kaki grafted onto kaki rootstock would need special protection for the rootstock when the grafted portion isn't protected. In other words, if a grafted kaki can survive unprotected why wouldn't a kaki rootstock be equally hardy? Has anyone observed differences in the dates that kakis leaf out when grafted on kaki vs. virginiana (and maybe vs. lotus) roostock? It seems lots of trees survived for decades at Wye Plantation in Maryland all on virginiana roostock, and that's the easiest/most available option for me, but my main interest in trying kaki rootstock would be to see if I could get better grafting success. I'm trying bagging all my persimmon grafts this year with row cover cloth at grafting time to protect them from psylla, and I'm hoping that will make a difference, but I've probably made nearly 100 kaki and kaki X grafts onto volunteer (i.e. in the field/ground) seedlings the last three years and hardly any have taken and none of those survived through til the next year. One year from grafting purchased kaki trees have done fine for me, though. I have also had relatively better success grafting virginiana on volunteer virginiana and some limited success grafting kaki on potted virginiana. My best guess at this point as to why I had some success with the potted rootstocks is that they were indoors protected from psylla long enough, but it also could have been temperature or soil moisture or easier/better removal of competing growth below graft...
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Thanks Bob and Floyd, Bob I'll try whatever you can spare. You can PM or e-mail me from my profile and I'll send a money order. I can try dormant and green then under the same conditions. Bob you have a couple other interests of mine PawPaws and Figs. I only lost three figs last year. An Alma, Smith and VDB. I have backups on all but the Alma and I have several sources for it. PawPaws are all selected seedlings from about 5 - 6 sources for good pollination. My grove is still young but I have had flowers for three years. Still had one open flower this morning. Now I just think I need to do some manual pollination to get fruit. Friend of mine in Biloxi did that this year and has one cluster now. Floyd with Persimmons nothing is obvious. I can see where the larger rootstock could supply extra nutrition to the scion wood. I have a friend near me and he is grafting onto in ground native seedlings. I'll pass on your experiences to him also. He will save himself some failures with those tips. I'll keep trying till I get it right. I have a friend in Abbeville LA that once had a 12 n 1 persimmon tree he grafted. I have ordered about 300 Kaki seeds to grow and graft Asian varieties on. I am concerned with Persimmon Decline and using the Kaki is supposed to eliminate that. Thanks Darkman Charles in Pensacola
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bonsaist
12 years ago
I have several Asian persimmons and one American and a couple hybrids. Just like how the varieties have different characteristics such as early bud break, so would be seedlings grown trees.
Bud break is influenced by the warm weather causing the sap to flow, the rootstock have a direct impact on sap flowing causing the buds to wake up. So I'm sure rootstocks that leaf early can cause the scions to grow earlier.

So far, the two persimmons that are still dormant for me are Hokkaido and Nikita gift. Regardless of the rootsock these two are known to break dormancy late.

Bass
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breaking dormancy - effect of rootstock (persimmon)

Comments (3)

canadianplant

creekweb

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