On the diseases front, netting will in fact make many diseases worse, because they impede air circulation and many diseases do not need insects to carry. Also as you mention, something needs to be done to let bees in for pollination. So for diseases I would say overall it will make things worse. If there was such a thing as superfine netting which did not impede windflow much at all that could work OK. Maybe a cage of window screen could be worth experimenting with. Overall I would say bagging the fruits will be less work than messing with a screen cage, having to lift it off every time you needed to prune or pick a fruit or get the tree pollinated. Maybe if it was on a pully so you could just pull it up in a few seconds it would make it tolerable to gain quick access.

Scott

Scott, thanks for the reply. Actually, I've already thought through the access and pollination issues and have a solution there (I've not tried to describe the whole system I have in mind).

So basically the netting idea would likely help a lot with pests but not much diseases (and possibly make them worse), if I understand correctly.

Would solving the airflow issue most likely make such a scheme disease-neutral?

How are fruit diseases predominantly spread? (Although I would think that pollinators would carry at least some, it sounds from your reply like such diseases are in the minority.)

My greenhouse nearly 100% eliminates disease but I have low humidity and work to keep it that way inside. So rain and humidity are your enemy on the disease front. The greenhouse also reduces insect pests. My only serious pest is spider mites. One spray a year handles them if you have the right spray.

If you had a poly roof to hold out most rain plus insect screen, you'd have a shot at pretty pest free fruit. But your humidity is going to make it tough.

Knoxville:

You have to define what fruit trees you plan to net (apples, peaches, cherries?), what insect pests are troublesome in your region, and what diseases you have had or anticipate.

When you do this, I think the answer will be no, that netting will make virtually no difference in either diseases or pests on fruit trees. Netting is barely helpful to control bird damage, and even for that purpose it is a pain in the neck. This is without considering the need for insect pollination on pome fruits, which is vital, though I doubt that netting would completely stop even the pollenizers.

One of the worst insects in your region on both stone and pome fruits is the plum curculio. This insect can fly at egg-laying time, but it is usually found crawling up the trunk and branches at night. The net has not been made that could affect this insect. You may be able to somewhat reduce codling moth on apples, but I doubt netting would help on the very small apple maggot fly.

Disease control is even less likely. Most diseases of fruit trees are fungal or bacterial, and blow in with the wind and rain, or overwinter on the tree. Few are transmitted by insects. These are tiny, microscopic organisms, and would not notice the presence of a net.

The answer to insect and disease control is timely spraying with carefully chosen insecticides and fungicides, coupled with effective dormant season sprays, and even that does not guarantee 100% protection. Netting against these problems would be a waste of time and money.

Don Yellman, Great Falls, VA

I was actually in Ikea this weekend, and they had this huge mosquito netting contraption in their patio furniture section for only $19.99, and I was thinking about buying one for the cherry tree for birds! It would definitely work for flying pests, it's very light and filmy. It was about 10 feet tall and the circumference of a round patio table.

Carla in Sac

I would not discourage this idea. I don't see why PC couldn't be stopped by a screen system if it was tight enough to keep out flies (or small ugly weevles!).

Fruitnut is probably right that if you are going to the trouble of screening you might as well go whole hog and keep out rain as well. Either that or run with disease resistant varieties.

Often serious disease pressure runs much shorter than insect issues and some people fear fungicide much less than insecticide (insecticides tend to be much more toxic to us). You could consider a fungicide only production method as well and do 3 sprays only.

Fruitnuts system seems time tested where he is (how much summer rain do you get FN?), and yet at MSU where they are trying to develop a similar system there are real problems yet to iron out, apparently. They're trying to grow cherries under plastic and have found they have almost the same cracking problems under plastic or at least not enough better to justify the cost. Seems the wet ground outside of the plastic house caused the cracking.

Okay, let me toss out some more details.

Here's what I was thinking of:
- Roof made of a clear plastic.
- Sides made of some kind of insect netting or screen.
- Flooring could be mulch on top of weed suppression fabric or paving stones or some such thing.
- In addition to fruit trees, the structure would also contain some plants that flower all season long and thus would feed pollinators.
- Fruit trees sit in large containers to isolate them from the ground and give good drainage.
- A small group of mason bees would be kept inside as pollinators.
- The roof would be angled to promote rain run-off, with run-off being collected by an externally mounted gutter and directed into a large rain barrel.
- Trees and flowering plants would be automatically watered on a regular basis by a pump and irrigation system connected to the rain barrel.

My theory was:
- If the mesh size is small enough and the whole structure sealed tight, most pests could be kept out.
- Avoiding rainfall directly on the fruit tree leaves (water would instead be added around the tree base by the irrigation system) would help avoid mildew and mold-type diseases.

I am new to fruit tree growing and am doing research on it before I start so as to hopefully avoid big mistakes and bad results (e.g. dead trees).

Not having any prior background in this area and being a technical/creative type, I thought I'd try to turn my ignorance into an advantage by figuring out the basics of what the big problems are that people encounter right now and then see if I could find some new approaches that might be promising and then see if they are worth trying out.

Now that I've explained more, what do you all think? Any additional thoughts, ideas or changes in opinion?

Thanks!

Knoxvillegardner:

You are not far from my system. What you perhaps aren't thinking about at this point is temperature and humidity control. When the sun is overhead and it's hot outside there is a huge heat load on any covered structure. The standard answer for a greenhouse is to have one complete air exchange per minute. But even this allows the greenhouse to get hot. Adding an evaporative cooler makes a huge difference in my area and likely would to a lesser extent where you are.

Some greenhouses have insect netting over the air intake end. I haven't found that necessary. But we have far fewer serious pests than you probably do.

I use bumblebees for pollination. They work well and are standard fare in tomato greenhouses. Mason bees didn't work for me but might for you.

My flooring is a white reflective weed barrier over black weed barrier. The white is to reflect more light into the canopy. There is barrier now that is white on top and black on the bottom.

I have trees in pots and in the ground. Both work. There is no fruit splitting with either and we do have a heavy rainy season. If I were doing it again I'd put a root barrier around the structure and still might. This as much to keep roots out as to keep them in.

I think my system would work in most climates with summer dew point below 65F and winter high temperature below 60F. High humidity areas are facing problems no matter how you work it.

There are management issues. I've found water hard to manage. Something's going on with sweet cherries that I haven't figured out. It's either rootstock, virus, nutritional, light quality, something else, or a combination. Besides that production and quality are very good with very few pests.

Think about the pest free fruits you can grow. Master those first.

Harvestman:

Sometimes you surprise me. You go along offering sensible, experience-based advice, then suddenly offer encouragement to a harebrained scheme like this one. First the guy who wants to knock off apple blossoms with a pressure washer; now this. i don't know what we are going to do with you.

The Knoxville gardener is still at the research stage, so let's be honest with him before he gets too far with this impossible plan. I guess his overriding objective is to completely avoid the use of any chemical sprays, but he should read the threads on this forum from earnest organic growers like Keepitlow to see the troubles they are having. It will be difficult enough to raise apples in containers, much less do it without taking advantage of timely help from the right chemical agents.

Minimizing chemical sprays to grow tree fruit is an achievable objective, and that is what I have been doing for the past 30 years. But eliminate them entirely in East Tennessee? I don't think so.

Don Yellman, Great Falls, VA

Personally, what I found is that Greenhouses are a 2-edged sword...

They are great for some things (Growing things that don't grow where you live...)

They are terrible for some things (Infestations can quickly get out of hand, you gotta provide Climate control and water)

One of my strange observations is that Infestations and fungal breakouts easily get out of hand in greenhouses... and then pulling down the greenhouse and letting "Nature In" quickly suppresses and/or cures the entire problem..

You just can't underestimate the beneficial effect of actual rain and wind on plants vigor... and the effects of Ants and birds and predatory insects on controlling problem/feeder insects....

Other considerations:
Plastic sheeting and screen provides more shade than you think it does... Do your plants like that much shade?

Will you be able to get bugs back out?

What about winter storage?

Will you be able to get enough air circulation?

Will you be able to get in to water?

I think it would be worth a trip to your local Botanical Gardens -- Have a talk with the master gardeners to see about Insect and Fungus control...

Thanks

John

John:

The reason fungal breakouts get out of hand in a greenhouse is that the humidity is too high. I've had no fungal disease problems on some pretty disease prone fruits like nectarine. I do run an evaporative cooler which raises humidity during the heat of the day. But that's raising it from low levels outside.

The real key is I keep an exhaust fan running all night from now until fall freezing weather. This does two things. It lowers humidity at night by a lot and it keeps out some pests. Greenhouses fog up at night if not ventillated. Also by running a fan I keep out pests attracted to the scent of fruit. The scent is exiting via the fan and they can't fly in thru the fan.

Knoxville will probably be a tough place to grow certain fruits in a protected environment. But if you get the right setup and the right fruit, it will work. You'll just have to walk by a lot of naysayers to get it done.

Fruitnut:

I understand that your greenhouse environment was created primarily to deal with your extreme swings in daily temperatures, and that you have largely achieved this objective. But your climate, at 4500 feet in West Texas is a world apart from East Tennessee. The smoke in the Great Smoky mountains is not really smoke, but humidity.

Your fully enclosed greenhouse is quite a different situation than a lot of fixes to try to grow container fruits out of doors. If you think Knoxville gardener (who is, bear in mind, a beginner), can be successful with the arrangements he is planning then that is fine. But I do not, and I am trying to save him a lot of trouble and expense for nothing.

If that makes me a naysayer, I am happy to be one.

Don Yellman, Great Falls, VA

Don:

Where did I say it would be easy? Where did I say my system would work in Knoxville? I didn't. What I said was the right system and the right fruit would work. But the right system will vary with climate.

I also told him to work on the pest free fruits first. We all know he's just in the thinking stage and isn't about to put up a greenhouse. So I was giving him some things to think about.

I was just reading about a place in Pennsylvania that grew and fruited a nectarine, and many other fruits in a greenhouse. The nectarine fruited for 40 years. How many other nectarines do you think have ever fruited for 40 years in that area? I can get the reference if anyone is interested.

knoxvillegardener most of those who have posted before have much more experience than I. I realize you are trying to make things simpler and hopefully pesticide free through planning and preparation. However what you are thinking of doing adds so many other levels of possible unintended consequences that it boggles the mind. If you had years and years of experience and time and money to burn I would say go for it. But there are so many things that can go wrong and go wrong fast. Without the requisite experience to handle things when they go wrong in an environment where molds funguses and spores can multiply like gangbusters practically overnight. Not to mention how fast insects can multiply in an enclosed environment that is not open to their predators. I would not recommend you undertake this endeavor.
What you are planning to do will not lessen the amount of work involved or lessen the amount of diligence required to maintain your fruit trees. It will increase it several fold. There was something my step dad used to say every time I would start over thinking and over preparing for something and it goes something like this." You sure know how to make a lot of work for yourself." If you really want to simplify things grow some low maintenance disease resistant fruit trees. There are not a lot to choose from but there are some you may like. For more variety you will have to learn what to spray and when but you can go organic. I hate to be throwing a wet towel over your plan but I don't want you to end up 2-4 years from now with dead trees inside of structures that need to be torn down.

The reference about the nectarine that fruited 40 years in a Pennsylvania greenhouse is: H. Tukey 1964 Dwarfed Fruit Trees Macmillian New York. There is a chapter near the back on potted fruit trees and growing under glass. Back then greenhouses were glass covered. So growing under glass meant in a greenhouse. Harold Tukey was a leader in the early development of dwarfed fruit trees.

Addendum: I have NOT experimented with greenhouses.....and I DO think there is something to the adage of starting simple if you are in the "experiment" stage and learn as you go, rather than create a big structure from scratch where you are not sure of the outcome....What I did was with individual trees that were already producing on other's people's properties where I had permission to experiment.

Don, really, you don't think the power-washer apple thinning idea might work? I've never used a power-washer on a wall let alone on apple trees but when the spur flowers first appear I figured by gradually increasing pressure you might find a point where the weaker flower clusters get knocked off while stronger ones remain. Anyway, that's a cheap experiement.

This experiment needn't be that expensive either. You could try it on one or 2 trees. I love to encourage the adventurous beginners to try the "impossible".

I made a succesful business out of installing and managing home orchards. Lot's of people didn't think that was possible. Lee Reich flat at told me that people wouldn't be willing to spray synthetics to get fruit in their backyards.

Lot's of times in my life I should have listened when people discouraged me from trying something "impossible", but in the end I'll take the failures with the occassinal unexpected successes. You can build a life around one success- failures are just temperary setbacks.

harvestman somehow I get the feeling you had at least planted, grown a fruit tree or two and harvested a piece of fruit or two before you started your backyard orchard installation business. knoxvillegardener is smart and trying to think ahead, I will give him that. However he has no experience at all, Zero, Zip Nada. Don't you think it might be beneficial and more practical for him to get at least some practical experience under his belt before jumping off the deep end? It sounds like he is trying make the whole process of growing easier and less time consuming by doing a good deal of work up front. However there is a lot that can go wrong that can require immediate care when dealing with an enclosed environment.
I inspect every one of my trees every day and I enjoy it. However if I want to leave my plants for a few days I know they will be alright so long as I don't leave during our summer months. If I had my trees in an enclosed environment I would inspect them every day too. However I would be afraid to leave them alone for a few days or longer. A storm or wind storm can do a lot of damage and fast when a tree is covered. Ventilation can be a nightmare with humidity issues that can be hard to fix without a forced air system. Even then forcing in damp air may not help the problem at all.
Not to mention dealing with heat build up during the warmer months. With so many things that can and will at times go wrong or need to be adjusted and require immediate attention. I donÂt feel itÂs a good idea for someone to attempt such an undertaking when they have no experience that would help them spot problems before they become big problems . Putting a structure around something living in a constantly changing environment is not for someone who is trying to make the process less expensive or less time consuming. Sure its something that can be done but it takes a lot of time, care, money and a love for what you are doing so that itÂs a joy and not a chore.

Of course I could be all wrong. knoxvillegardener may want to being running out and checking temps and humidity during the day and night and making adjustments as weather changes. Or he may want to buy ventilation equipment and greenhouse timers and sensors for heat and humidity that cost a small fortune. We are not talking about adding a bird net to some trees. This is a lifestyle and a commitment and he may want to go for it or may not. But he should know that what he is talking about doing is not the easy way or the less expensive or even less time consuming.

If the sides of the house are screen and he's only reducing rain with a kind of umbrella instead of keeping things in a plastic house I really don't know how much heat build up there will be. Screen houses by themselves don't hold a lot of heat.

It really doesn't seem like an obvious fools errand to me. But then, I've never experienced a Tenessee summer. I certainly wouldn't recommend taking on any more than the smallest scale experiment possible.

Hey harvestman, just a couple philosophical points unrelated to horticulture:
I really think it is great to have debate, great to be challenged, great to have ideas to think about. I actually get tired of the guys who go to "motivational seminars" and get hair-brained ideas and then say to others "hey, you are the enemy if you try to say anything negative"....excuse, me, but we ALL need reality checks....and we definitely need to have hair-brained ideas to be called that...especially if they are.
But I felt a little over-challenged on this thread and responded defensively, especially when I am virtually certain that:
a. I am not stupid by most people's standards.
b. My intuition is often dead-on. (I still think power washing is worth trying....or at least asking if anyone else has tried so that I can learn from them)
c. I have probably literally picked more apples and worked in more orchards than not only anybody on this forum but anybody you are likely to meet and have conversed with real commercial orchardists, and
d. I actually have some experience in one of these ideas challenged and know that netting can work if you (pardon the pun) you can "work the bugs out" on your idea.

So, in the long run, the challenge is good.....we don't learn as much if everyone agrees with us....especially good if it can be countered with direct experience from ourselves or others and I don't want ANYONE to back down from challenging me.

I work with these organizations:
www.pipersorchard.org
www.cityfruit.org
and the Seattle Tree Fruit Society.

Yeah, and I've seen screen house vegetable gardens without the rain-roof that worked perfectly well, although for vegetables it was definately over-kill.

One thing about having a contrarian personality- it tends to be self feeding because it makes you more likely to try things against other peoples advice and a lot of times it ends up working, which just inspires you to be more contrarian.

When I started my east coast home orchard business 20 years ago if I'd followed the advice of Cornell advisors or the tech person from my chemical supplier, I would never have learned how few sprays I can get away with to get perfectly good fruit in a home orchard situation. My business would never have had a chance if I'd relied on a dozen sprays a season. 2-3 sprays is easy to sell.

Those of us growing fruit in home orchard settings really have to find our way because, as I have often said here, research that is appropriate for trying to manage hundreds of acres of monoculture fruit trees doesn't necesarily apply to our scale.

Harvestman, this is off-subject again and so I won't post much more on this thread but I can tell you what I believe after having worked with some affiliated bureaucracies as well:

I don't know about Cornell but I believe the reason the local Extension services and websites tell you to spray way more than what you need to do is because they are simply "covering their backsides".....in other words, when you are in the public domain, you almost HAVE to play it safe and give the safest possible directions so as to avoid lawsuits.

Shucks, even though these forums are kind of fun, I worry about being reckless myself in the things I say.....and wonder if I shouldn't take the time to absolutely clarify every nuance of what I say....because people are bound to misunderstand you....that is why the "legally or technically correct" response is the one you have to give even on these forums...for example, I worry that people will think I was thinking of power washing as a way of thinning the fruit.....I was not....I was only wondering if there was a good way to reduce the bloom on the upper reaches of backyard trees where you really only want to work with the fruit lower down.

Harvestman I think putting a roof over it year round on a small screened in area is where there may be a problem. This is not bird netting and air does not move through it as well either. A small screened area does not have the same air flow as a screened sun room. Not saying it can't be done. fruitnut would know better than I. I was just saying it is a much better undertaking for someone who really knows what they are doing and who loves it enough to make the lifestyle changes necessary to dial it in.

I like new ideas too but I see the voice of experience here being fruitnut and if he says it can be difficult I believe him. When I see some one wanting to grow something for the first time I really don't want to discourage them. However in this case I just felt it better to give him a reality check. I would much rather see him grow something and be happy with it or overjoyed and then try something new and difficult after he has had some success.
I mean he could grow the trees and learn a lot over the next 1-2 years and then he would be much better prepared for what he is shooting for. He still may fail or succeed but at least his chances of success will be higher and if he fails the odds that he will give up on growing will be lower.

That might be part of it but I think essentially it is about research. Landgrant universities are funded to do research on commercial fruit production- no one is funded to do research on home orchard fruit production.

If you are a salaried expert you can only provide people with research based information. To steer people with information based on anecdotal observation is simply not a professional way for people in these positions to do their job. Anyway, very few of them would have much anecdotal information to offer on home orchard production to begin with.

Okay, I'm back and will address the issues raised as time allows (may take a couple of posts over a couple of days).

So why would I ask about such a crazy scheme? (There seems to be some question about this in some peoples' minds.)

As a beginner, I did some reading of different discussions on this forum and various info on the web so I'd at least have some background knowledge before posting on here.

A few examples of what I read were comments along these lines:
- "90% fatality rate for fruit trees bought by beginning would-be backyard fruit growers"
- "trees must be sprayed every 10-14 days with highly poisonous / mutagenic / cancer-causing chemicals if they are to even survive, much less have a chance at producing fruit"
- "pest problems are so bad that people individually cover the fruit with paper bags to protect them from insects (unfortunately, while this keeps the insects off, it causes the fruit to rot) or (starting more recently) put some kind of small sock over them ["booties"] for the same reason"
and so on...

And here I had been thinking - ignoramus that I am - that it was possible to spray the trees a few times a year with sprays that are comparatively mild / pretty safe and actually stand a good chance of getting a nice harvest of fruit!

If the situation is truly as dire as some have made it out to be, it leads to me - crazy person that I am - to ask the question: Would it not be simpler and safer to erect a physical barrier between the fruit trees and the pests?

However, subsequent discussions with several people in my local area who are familiar with growing fruit trees and comments from several experienced people on this forum (e.g. Harvestman) lead me to believe that successfully growing fruit with only a few well-timed sprays a year may not actually be an impossible dream. (Bluntly, I'm also wondering if there hasn't been some exaggeration here and there.)

Some info on two subjects before going back to discussing enclosing trees within a screened-in structure...

The point about choosing disease and pest resistant varieties is well-taken. (Actually, I already know about this and will do so to the extent possible.)

Since temperature and humidity have come up as a topic several times, you may be interested in taking a look at this:

Average daily high/low temps (and rainfall) by month for Knoxville, TN: http://www.weather.com/outlook/homeandgarden/garden/wxclimatology/monthly/graph/37931

Compare Knoxville July values to those of:
Cincinnati, OH: http://www.weather.com/outlook/homeandgarden/garden/wxclimatology/monthly/graph/USOH0188
Philadelphia, PA: http://www.weather.com/outlook/homeandgarden/garden/wxclimatology/monthly/graph/USPA1276
St. Louis, MO (!!!): http://www.weather.com/outlook/homeandgarden/garden/wxclimatology/monthly/graph/USMO0787

And then to:
Birmingham, AL: http://www.weather.com/outlook/homeandgarden/garden/wxclimatology/monthly/graph/USAL0054
Atlanta, GA: http://www.weather.com/outlook/homeandgarden/garden/wxclimatology/monthly/graph/USGA0028
Columbia, SC: http://www.weather.com/outlook/homeandgarden/garden/wxclimatology/monthly/graph/USSC0065

Although it definitely gets warmer here in mid-summer than I would prefer, Knoxville is not the Deep South.

I had a similar idea and I'm also new to growing fruit trees. I will be espaliering my apple trees, straight across like on a fence post. What I was thinking is that I could make sleeves that cover each long branch out of row cover, using velcro as a fastener and cinching the ends closed. Now I'm not so sure. It's humid and hot in the summer so it may cause less circulation and disease but row cover is fairly thin. Crazy idea?

How do you design these structures for ice/snow storms? A number of large commercial hoop-style greenhouses collapsed here in December 2008 from heavy snow.

Okay, I've got a few minutes. Let's take a look at some of the questions and objections others have raised.

First, let me say this:

IMPORTANT SIDE COMMENTS:

My purpose in starting this thread was to get help from others in evaluating whether this idea might be viable or not. (It wasn't to try to convince you that doing what I've suggested is the way to go.)

Hearing your objections is helpful in figuring out if I've overlooked something important or if there is something that makes this idea a no-go or not worth it from an effort-reward standpoint.

In responding to your objections, I'm not trying to be argumentative; rather, my interest is in evaluating whether they are a serious issue or not really a problem (or a problem that can be worked around fairly easily).

On this subject, there was a bit of mild sarcasm in my first post on the 16th. I'm sorry. Please excuse me for that.

AND NOW THE ACTUAL TECHNICAL CONTENT...

Objection #1: Heat build-up is going to be a big problem.

Answer: I'm not really sure why that would be, although maybe I'm missing something. If I have what's basically a cage made from insect screen/netting, the sides (and potentially the top) should all have a decent rate of air exchange through them due to air diffusion, if nothing else. This isn't a greenhouse with solid sides and roofing. I would expect it to be a few degrees above the outside ambient temperature on sunny days, but that's about it. Am I estimating temperature build-up incorrectly?

Related Objections: Ventilation! Humidity!

Regarding ventilation, we don't get a lot of wind around here in the summer and plants still manage to do okay. As mentioned above, air will diffuse through the screen, resulting in a situation that I would guess is not that much different from what it would be with no screen at all. Nevertheless, I could periodically run a fan if needed to circulate the air. Regarding humidity, air diffusion through the screen ought to keep it in line with the area outside the structure.

Objection #2: It won't stop pests, or at least not plum curculio - no screen mesh anywhere is fine enough to stop plum curculio.

Answer: Are you sure? The screen ought to stop moths (e.g. the Oriental Fruit Moth). As for plum curculio, check out http://www.greenhousemegastore.com/Anti-Insect-Screen/productinfo/IS-AI/ - they say this stuff will stop western flower thrips. Compare the size of western flower thrips (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_flower_thrips) to that of plum curculio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plum_curculio).

Although I'd like to finish this post, I really need to go now - hopefully can get back with you all in the next couple of days.

Thanks!

Knoxville:

If having sorted through all the comments here, and doing lots of homework on the internet, you are personally satisfied that your concept is viable, then I say full speed ahead. It is not something I would try, but that's not the controlling factor here. A year or so from now, you can give us your evaluation on how it is working out.

I have noticed that unusual ideas like yours can be debated endlessly on this forum; then the years go by and we never hear any more about it. I wonder if Donnie successfully power washed his apple fruit clusters away, but there has been no further word from that sector. Sometimes it seems we argue more about concepts than realities.

I would point out, however, that it is possible to grow apples, peaches and other fruit with a minimum of targeted pesticide/fungicide applications -- far fewer than those used by commercial growers. And the use of ziploc sandwich bags to safely grow nearly perfect apples in a low-spray regime is a proven, low-cost strategy -- even if a little labor intensive. I have been doing these things for many, many years, and am quite pleased with the results.

I regard pesticides and fungicides as useful allies in pursuing my fruit-growing hobby, but they should be applied carefully and responsibly. My little orchard, which is also my back yard, is full of life of all kinds, including birds, toads, frogs (I have a pond), and millions of earthworms. I also raise free-ranging miniature ducks back there. All these little creatures can't be wrong.

Don Yellman, Great Falls, VA

My first try with power washing was a failure....I had enough pressure for the lower branches to knock the blossoms off but not the upper branches.....and it is precisely the opposite effect I am looking for....you might be right, but I still want to explore next year.

I would also be interested in hearing knoxvillegardener's results a year or so from now....for better or for worse....I am quite sure he can at least work out some of the bugs of his operation if he does it right...but the devil is in the details.

I would like to see the results 1-2-3 years out after the canopies fill in.

Jellyman and others,

Thanks for your comments!

A few things:

Can you point me to somewhere that clearly explains how to grow fruit with a minimum of spraying (e.g. targeted spraying at specific critical times). Also, using sprays that minimize the negative impact on the environment and people would be really good. (What I've heard so far, details-wise, is how to spay every 10 days or so. Although people have told me that sprays can be cut to several per season, no one has yet told me very specifically HOW to do this.)

I'm still figuring out some of the details of my concept, such as how to minimize the cost of implementing it. It's questionable whether I'll be able to try this idea out this year. If I do get to try it out, however, I'll be glad to report back on my results.

I would like to get started with fruit trees this year, which means waiting no longer than a few more weeks at the latest. If you could point me to detailed info on how to successfully use targeted spraying, that would be great. I don't want to buy a few trees and then have them get diseased / killed while I'm still trying to figure out how to care for them properly.

If I can get started this year but can't build any protective cages until next year, I'll at least have some kind of baseline (however rough!) to compare next year against.

Is anyone interested in hearing further details of what I have in mind with an eye to critiquing them or possibly even trying some out yourselves? (Or has interest waned?)

Thanks!

Jelly-

And its not just us crazy Americans covering fruit with bags. I witnessed a show on TV not long ago showing Chinese doing the same thing (they were protecting pears) and i know from reading that the Japanese also will cover fruit with bags. I'll be bagging apples not too long from now after much success last year.

Knoxville:

You seem to be looking for clear guidance and step-by-step instructions in an internet-style nutshell, and you won't find it. Life is not that simple, and the fruitgrowing part of it certainly is not. You can find general guidance, some good some bad, but you will have to work out the details for yourself, based principally on trial and error.

I planted my first fruit trees in the spring of 1977, when Al Gore had not yet dreamed of inventing the internet. In those early years, I got a lot of help from fellow fruitgrowers in NAFEX, both personally and from the quarterly publication POMONA. I had a couple of excellent, well-illustrated publications from the University of Michigan (which I still have), and subscribed to a commercial fruit growers magazine. That was pretty much it.

But even with these efforts, I had to see and experience insects like plum curculio and oriental fruit moth, and diseases like cedar apple rust, fireblight, and bacterial diseases. I lost some trees to diseases, and a whole lot of fruit to insect pests of various kinds. Gradually, over the years, I learned to recognize and anticipate these problems, and became familiar with the various insecticides and fungicides to deal with them, and the timing for their application. Now, my trees are very healthy and produce beautiful fruit, but I still spend a lot of time and effort (which I do not begrudge) working on them.

I cannot distill this into a simple recipe for successfully growing fruit in Knoxville, because it's not that simple. If you want to get started with fruit trees, order in some trees and plant them. You are not going to solve all your potential problems beforehand. Try it first without protective cages. There is plenty of time for that. First, you have to get some little trees going, and the window for doing that this spring is rapidly closing.

Don Yellman, Great Falls, VA

What Don said is so true. You are not going to learn it all and have it all worked out before hand. Its amazing how much study and effort one is willing to put in when the beautiful trees you planted are suffering. There are a million different variables that can be specific to you climate your soil your pests or diseases that come in a given year. I love walking out and looking at my trees every day. I look for pests and disease and for the results from the last pruning and the color of the leaves and the fruit.
Last week I noticed the leaves on my blueberries were getting a little pale and made some adjustments. I also noticed that the leaves and new growth on one of my Apricot trees were not the right color and had to add some fertilizers. The other new Apricot tree was suffering some tip die back. It was a very large bare root tree with not so many roots so I cut it back even though it was leafed out and now its putting out new healthy growth.
There are any number of little things here and there I see that need to be done now or soon or after they go dormant again in the Fall. You don't learn everything over night. My advice is the same a Don's. Pick your trees and learn how to plant them and have all the preparation done before they arrive. You can screen them in next year if you still want to.

It just occurred to me where I was that reminded me of what knoxville proposes: The seasonal butterfly "house" at the Portland Zoo. It has fine-mesh fabric on walls and roof (not a plastic roof), mulch/paver floor, is large enough for small trees, contains many plants that are kept watered. Hundreds of people come and go (through a double-door system) and stir up the air. It is hot and humid in there, not enough to make the general public faint, but it is very noticeable. This was on a typical Portland summer day temp less than 80. I think the Knoxville structure would be like a sauna.

A commonly recommended approach to controlling tomato blight is to roof off the rain- saw it recommended by a scientist doing breeding work to create blight resistance in tomatoes.

I still question that screen of itself would make a big difference in humididty- like to see some simple research on how much it reduces air movement.

Don is absolutely right IMO about having to learn as you go but the construction of a single screen structure for a dwarf tree is hardly a huge undertaking.