Sounds like iron defiency to me. I had a gardenia outside whose leaves started turning yellow and giving it iron solved the problem. Gardenias seem to be bad about this when they are blooming. You don't need to pluck off the yellow leaves though. The leaves on my bush actually turned green again once they had iron.

Yep definately sounds like lack of iron. Get some blood meal. It's organic and high in nitrogen. You won't need much, probably just a little bit less than 1/4 tsp per plant.

Mike - I doubt it's an iron (Fe) deficiency If it IS, and you're using MG (contains ample Fe), it's almost certainly pH induced (caused by too high a pH level) and not due to the fact there is insufficient Fe in the soil. Adding additional Fe is also not likely to cure it. Also, there are lots of reasons not to use blood meal to supply Fe, chief among them the fact that blood meal is usually around 12% nitrogen and can quickly raise the level of solutes in the soil solution very high while supplying little in the way of nutrition other than N. Algal growth at the soil surface and gnats often accompany the use of blood meal as well. Many, if not most Fe deficiencies in houseplants can be eliminated by acidifying your water with vinegar to lower pH so Fe already there (in soils) becomes soluble and available.

Because Fe is not mobile in the plant (the plant can't rob it from old leaves and move it to new leaves), deficiencies normally show up as interveinal chlorosis (yellowing between the veins) in new leaves, not old. Therefore, if it is a nutritional deficiency, it's probably one of the mobile elements - likely N,P,K, or Mg. Of these 3, Mg would be the most likely, and it does cause yellow mottling of the leaves.

I'm not making a diagnosis here, just musing. Can you describe the symptoms more thoroughly? Any cupping of the affected leaves? pinkish/reddish tint? any pattern to the chlorosis? veins yellow or darker than the leaf? room temperature?

Also, if you're using the fertilizer I sent you, I mixed 'STEM' micronutrients into it, and a chelated Fe/Mn for use in high pH applications before I sent it, so all the nutrients are covered except Ca and Mg. Did you make the soil the plant is in, or is it in the soil it came in?

It's very possible the problem is not nutritional, but cultural. Over/under-watering and insects are two areas to suspect. If you're using a fast soil, it's prolly not from salt accumulation, but make sure you can eliminated that as a possibility on your check list as you move along.

Al

Oh yeah - it could also be natural senescence (aging), but there is no way to tell from MI. ;o)

Al

Didn't know that about blood meal A1. Thanks. I use it in potted plants that stay outside so never had a gnat problem. Good to know info.

Ok Al...

Thanks for helping. Here we go.

It is in the 5.1.1 mix I made. I used a little gypsum in the mix.
They do not have any slow release in the soil. The only fertilizer I have been using in small amounts is the Mg you sent me with the minors. That is why I am so stumped. I thought I was all set with fertilizing..
The room is kept warm, about 65 at night, and the 70's by day.
I am letting the soil dry completely, as it is not difficult letting it do so, in in the small pots in full sun. They dry out rather fast.

The older leaves get this deep yellow look on the center vein extending to the outer veins. The leaf is straight with no insects. It stays on the plant for awhile once the yellowing starts, then I just pull it off once the yellow covers the entire leaf. The areas around the yellow are a nice green at first. Seems like these little buggers are giving off the older leaves to support the new growth and flowers, while getting taller and bare at the bottom.

All the areas that you have said to check, have been checked. It is deffinately not a watering issue. It hasn't been for almost a year now. But I am begining to think it is a nutrient deffeciency...Please help me stop it Al.

I could look at these little plants as a way of curing what may happen to my bigger ones if this should start with them too.

Thanks alot ;-)

One more thing.

These were transplanted into this 5.1.1 mix and pot back in September. Maybe it will help you all to know how long they have been in the same pot. Remember they are small in 4 inch pots. They are actively growing, and in alot of sun.

;-)

Mike, Gardenias are acid-loving plants..therefore they need acidic soil and fertilizer.
After frequent waterings, tap water eventually makes soil alkaline.
The solution is to give a Gardenia 1/2 ounce of iron sulfate, per gallon of water. Iron chelate will serve the same purpose.
Start treatment as soon as you notice the problem, and repeat once or twice a wk for a month. It's a good idea to treat your plant every 2-3 months as a preventive. This way you will avoid Chlorosis altogether.
Check pH..Toni

"That is why I am so stumped. I thought I was all set with fertilizing."

If only it was that easy. ;o) You have all the nutrients you need in the right amounts in the fertilizer I sent except Ca and Mg. The gypsum supplies Ca and S, but not Mg. We talked about the difference in how we would supply Ca between the gritty mix & the 5:1:1 mix. The 5:1:1 mix generally gets garden lime to raise pH and supply both Ca and Mg (same thing MG potting soil people add). The gritty mix gets gypsum because it doesn't raise the soil pH. If you used gypsum in the 5:1:1 mix, you could be dealing with either a Mg deficiency (you're not supplying any Mg, unless you're also using Epsom salts), or a low pH induced toxicity of Fe or Mn.

All that is if it really IS a nutrient deficiency.

"Seems like these little buggers are giving off the older leaves to support the new growth and flowers ..."

Remember, because it's occurring in the old leaves, nutrient deficiencies would be found in the mobile nutrients, and those would be N,P,K, or Mg. Since you're fertilizing regularly with a fertilizer that has NPK but NO Mg, and you didn't include it in the soil (none in the gypsum) we're full circle to Mg as the most likely to be deficient again.

Of course, I can't tell from here if it really is nutritional or cultural. It could be that your plant is only now shedding the leaves that diminished photo-exposure started on their way toward shedding a month or two ago. Who knows?

Can you confirm that it was gypsum & not lime you added as a Ca source, and that you're not using Epsom salts?

Al

Mike, look to the simple solutions before you go to extremes.
Gardenia is different than most other plants...they must have certain conditions to thrive.
Daytime temps of 68 - 72º, nighttime temps of near 60º = 62º
Higher humidity....a moisture tray is suggested
Daily misting is suggested as a way to contribute to its need for higher humidity
Acidness given to the soil....and the most simple way of doing that is to open a tea bag or two and spread over the surface. Each time you water, you give it a bit of acid
Having peat moss make up about 25% of the soil mix is also recommended.

Don't fertilize until it is growing...and that usually takes place during the spell April - November
Good light. You say you give it full sun with southern exposure....and grow lights?
Why the need for additional light? Even plants need to sleep during nighttime. Such grow lights can contribute to higher nighttime temps---which they don't need.

High temperatures during nighttime and low light requirements add up to flower bud drop.
As sun values are quickly recovering, you can think to turn your plant 1/4 turn to ensure all parts receive adequate sun.

YES...

Hi Al, and Toni!

I was doing some serious remembering, and I remmeber adding iron to other plants that I have that seem to do the same thing in the same soil, in the same conditions, and they never improved. Then I gave them away to a couple of friends, and I have no idea how they are now.

So this leads me to think it could be the soil. I did not add lime. I hear you talking about it, and even see you telling others to add it to the 5.1.1 mix, and I have not, because I had none on hand when I made it. ME BAD!!!
I never use epsom salts either.
I think I see what you are trying to say Al, when it comes to mixing this soil. Maybe that has been the problem, maybe I am seeing the problems associated with lack of lime over time in this mix.. I kind of had a feeling when I asked for help, the minute I sent you all this question, after reading the first sentence...
"It is in the 5.1.1 mix I made. I used a little gypsum in the mix". dir
I think maybe I caught my own mistake!! Darn it. I love these two denias. I hope they get better soon.

Ok, if this is the real culprit, what can I do asap to see if this is what it is? How can I correct this problem? Is it too late? How much lime do I add to these little pots?

Toni, if this is not the problem, then I am going to try your idea in the next step. But since I have been using Al's fertilizer, and the soil he suggested, and did not make it the way I was suppose too, I think Al just might have the solution..
Let's see what happens, and I will let you all know.

Please Al.
Guide me to do what I have to do starting now..Please.

Just a side thought not related,

I wanted to say, I really treasure you both, along with everyone else trying to help me. But I would love to you both learn from each other, and be forum friends. It bothers me to see you both hurt one another as in the past posts you have posted.
You don't have to like each other, but I wish you both would. You too could add so much more power to this community together..:-)
You too could learn so much from each other, because you both posses great qualities,experience and knowledge in your own ways.
Besides, you're BOTH my friends! You know this. You know what, and who I mean? You don't have to answer to this though. Just think about it. I have come to have affection for both of you over the course of time!

Mike..:-)

Sorry man...

Something just occured to me!!!

I have three denias all this same size, all in the same soil, all bought together, and all next to each other on the same window sill, and yet I am only having a problem with the two. The one that is fine, is the one that has no new growth yet. It is growing ALOT slower than these other two. It is the same size as when I bought it. It has only grown one leaf. Seems to be a bit dormant. Has not lost any leaves.
This problem is only happening to the two that are real active, fast growing, and putting out flowers for so lttle of plants... The fast growing ones. These two have tripled in size all winter since I have had them.

Ok, I think that is all the details I can think of..lol

Mike - Don't add ferrous (iron) sulfate. It will further acidify the soil and make the iron that is already present in the soil available. Combined with the additional iron in the ferrous sulfate you could easily create an iron toxicity OR an antagonistic deficiency of Mn. Yellow leaves are NO clear indication of an Fe deficiency and to add chemicals to container plantings willy nilly is a poor practice. If you potted in the fall and didn't use lime, your pH is almost certainly still below 6. If you're using any soluble MG product (especially if it is what I sent with the chelate already in it), you can be almost certain it is not an Fe deficiency. The advice to add the ferrous sulfate is much more likely to cause a problem, perhaps severe, than correct one.

Mike, I don't have a problem with Toni as a person, but I do have a problem with advice like above .... directing you to add ferrous sulfate or a chelate with no idea of the potential outcome.

I suggest you skip the misting, it isn't helpful, and tea bags will not acidify the soil - sorry. Camellia (tea) and coffee are known for their toxic alkaloid (caffeine) content and their allelopathic affect on plants as well as autotoxic (poison to their own seedlings) effects on future generations. They are more noxious to plants in containers because of the small volume of soil containerized plantings grow in. Caffeine interferes with root development by impairing protein metabolism. This affects activity of an important bio-compound (PPO) and lignification (the process of becoming woody), crucial steps for root formation. We also know that the tannins in both coffee and tea are known allelopaths (growth inhibitors).

Your fertilizer program is fine, if you're fertilizing at around 1/4 the recommended dosage every week or two, and you flush the soil regularly.

Again, I can tell you almost certainly that if you're using MG regularly and you didn't lime the soil, the pH is low enough so that you do not have an Fe deficiency. Try adding 1/8 tsp MgSO4 (Epsom salts) to a quart of water and spritz the worst looking plant. Pay more attention to wetting the underside of the leaves than the top. If the plant responds favorably, you can be pretty sure it was a Mg deficiency with a possible Ca deficiency on the way (they often go hand in hand.)

We actually don't even know yet if what you have going on is nutritional, cultural, or natural (aging). If the Epsom salts work, you can buy some Cal/Mag and apply it as a liquid (in solution), or scratch some dolomite into the top layer of soil.

Al

Sounds good Al!

I have only been using your fertilzer as suggested, at the rates you said to use, by the book. The only thing I did was use foilage pro once in a great while as a supplement, which I probably didn't need anyway. I definately added no lime to all the 5.1.1.mixes I planted in. Let's see what happens.

I will start as early as tommorrow. I will spray epsom salts and let you know what happens. How long before I see results if this was the problem?

So do I have to do anything to the soil, or leave as is for now. If I am to understand, it seems you want me to do nothing, until we see what the epsom salts do.
Is using the epsom salt spray going to take us where we need to go, before I alter the soil with Cal/Mag. Do you want me to hold off for now. Or start to use that right away too?

I have a big one gallon jug of cal/mag I have never used yet.

One other thing, could this deficiency be causing the leaves on my big gardenia to be growing weak and paper thin? So thin, that are floppy, but very green. The leaves I just noticed today are so so thin, that I can almost see through them. This plant is growing in the gritty mix, with gypsum added using the same fertilizer routine..E-mial me if you would to go deeper and chat to see what we can do. Maybe this is up to another thread, although I wouldlove to tackle this here also.

Let's see what happens from the epsoms first I guess, if that is what you suggest I do,, then I will be back here or in private to tell you what I have for cal/mag and ask you how to use it for such little potted plants. I will keep you up to date on the progress.

Thanyou so much!

Oh, for Heaven's Sakes! Mike, whether you add iron, or mist for that matter is entirely up to you.
I've been using Iron on Gardenias, Azaleas and Hibiscus to name a few for years. Thankfully, no chlorosis.
Taking my word for it isn't important, but if you Google or browse through a plant book, books written by authors, men and women who have studied plants, who have had their writings' 'published,', you will find adding Iron will not harm your Gardenia, let alone kill it.
What you describe sounds like Chlorosis, but let's say it's not an iron deficiency. Adding Iron will NOT harm your Gardenia; it will benefit.
Like I said, you do not have to take my word..I am not the person who came up with an 'adding Iron brainstorm.'
Iron is used by professionals throughout the world.

Adding Epsom Salts is also a good idea, although I hope you realize the (old) yellow leaves on your plant will not resume color/green. Those leaves will eventually fall, therefore, I suggest removing.

Mike, you mentioned Gypsum. Gypsum doesn't decrease pH. Perhaps I misunderstood the reason you use it? If so, I apologize.

Mike, I love you, but trying to hook-up, blind-friendships do not work..Toni

There are two absolute statements in this quote. Can you tell us WHY you hold these beliefs as true? I bet not. "... but let's say it's not an iron deficiency. Adding Iron will NOT harm your Gardenia; it will benefit." Professionals do use various strategies to resolve suspected Fe deficiencies, but they don't start throwing ferric compounds at a plant simply because the leaves turn yellow - especially when they are already supplying Fe regularly and the pH is in a favorable range ... for heaven's sake.

Remember, Mike - there is no clear cut indication that you're dealing with something nutritional rather than cultural, and I clearly outlined why it's a near certainty it's not an Fe issue. For perspective: plants use about 150x more N than Fe.

I disagree with the blanket statement that the leaves will not green up. IF it IS a Mg deficiency that is causing the yellowing, the old leaves WILL green up because Mg is mobile in the plant and the plant will be able to move it to where it is lacking. If the cause is cultural and the yellowing is the result of an abscission layer forming at the base of the leaves, leaves will likely fall. This layer forms when auxin flow through the abscission zone is reduced - usually by a cultural cause. The layer blocks water/nutrient flow to the leaf after the plant extracts most of the mobile nutrients from the leaf, including the green pigment chlorophyll (leaving the other pigments dominant & the leaf yellow).

Al

Quote: "I suggest you skip the misting, it isn't helpful, and tea bags will not acidify the soil".
unquote.

Rather definitive statements, wouldn't you say Al, when the bare fact is that tea leaves is commonly given to plants to give them a shot of acidness.
Tea, as well as coffee grounds are very much an acid giver.
How much? Well, its not adding sulfur, or Miracid....it is like the sugar we put in our coffee, a little bit goes a long way.

Since you have in the past made uncomplimentary remarks about misting.....and since this subject can be researched widely for its benefit, you can hardly claim that it is of no value.

Since the plant in question is one that benefits from a higher moisture environment, misting, it seems to me, is just another of many possible ways to add such.
I don't see how anyone can justify saying misting is not of use to a plant that definitely can use it when such is called for.

The effects that are described by Mike does suggest a possible chlorosis problem.
Since this is an up-in-the-air questionable benefit, such addition of an iron amendment should be done carefully--a little bit at a time....see if there is any change.

Generally, it could be just the plant has suffered from low light over a cold winter...and when given sufficient sunlight it will recover nicely.
Some of the leaves may indeed drop....that can be expected if the problem goes on. But, the added sunlight might just stop what is affecting it in its tracks.

Again, I suggest Mike, you go slow....don't go overboard with any particular fix when there is some question to its validity.

Mike let's rule out the magnesium deficiency possibility. Your gardenia is not deficient, its Al's logic and ability to be polite that is deficient.

Magnesium deficiency does occur in the older leaves, and is characterised by a yellow mottling of the leaves. The yellow mottling occurs BETWEEN the veins, not along them.

I would guess that it is a watering issue. Both overwatering & underwatering are a possibility. Your letting it dry out completely....Gardenias don't tend to like to be so dry, and given that you have a very free draining mix, that could also be an issue. Gardenia's don't like to have dramatic changes in soil moisture. Try keeping it constantly moist and see if this changes anything.

Oh and Mike, many many sites quote the benefits of misting gardenias, so its worth a try. In my own case, when I look to raise the humidity surrounding a plant, I use the trick of putting gravel in the drainage tray, filling it with water, and placing this under the plant.

Yes, Jeannie. Admittedly so. I don't think anyone minds definitive or absolute statements if they are correct - correct? ;o) It's the erroneous definitive statements that also mislead that are troubling. I don't simply write down whatever thought just happens to pass through my head; I try to give consideration to all I say, so if it seems absolute, it's because I'm quite sure I'm on solid ground & I'm always ready to discuss how I arrived at my conclusions. I just don't think it's fair to the forum to give advice based on conclusions we don't know how we arrived at or can't explain. Does that sound reasonable?

While you may find lots of anecdotal information to the contrary, it's common knowledge that coffee and tea grounds are near neutral (7.0 is neutral). Starbucks lists the pH of their used/brewed coffee grounds at 6.9, while the coffee itself (it's hard to establish an actual pH of coffee/tea because of all the variables) ranges from a pH of around 5.0 - 5.9. The acid stays in the coffee, not the grounds. Tea is less acidic at around 6.0 - 6.4 , and the used leaves are also neutral to slightly alkaline, depending on the water used to brew the tea. You may find this GW link useful

If you reread Mike's posts, you'll see that he is growing in a peat based soil that he did not lime. This means the pH (since the soil is only a few months old) is going to be quite low, probably in the low to mid 5s, but certainly no higher than 6.0 (even allowing for normal upward pH creep). Since for all intents & purposes, used coffee and tea are neutral, how can they acidify a soil unless the soil is more basic than neutral? They can't. How can he have an Fe deficiency when the soil pH is low and the fertilizer he is using contains Fe AND an Fe chelate? He can't.

That aside, why would he want to (add tea), considering its noxious effect in small volumes of soil, which would be compounded by using fresh tea, if that is what you meant.

As far as your comments about sunlight, I already mentioned that there isn't really enough evidence to support panic on the nutritional front, and there is a good possibility that the symptoms he is seeing are cultural. Al: "Of course, I can't tell from here if it really is nutritional or cultural. It could be that your plant is only now shedding the leaves that diminished photo-exposure started on their way toward shedding a month or two ago."

Al

Brent - There is nothing wrong with my logic. Please reread what I said: Remember, because it's occurring in the old leaves, nutrient deficiencies would be found in the mobile nutrients, and those would be N,P,K, or Mg. Since you're fertilizing regularly with a fertilizer that has NPK but NO Mg, and you didn't include it in the soil (none in the gypsum) we're full circle to Mg as the most likely to be deficient again.

I would be very grateful if you could tell us how you ruled out a Mg deficiency?

Al

Because your logic is...that you have added all of the other nutrients and therefore either Ca or Mg is the culprit. You have failed to take into account the actual symptoms that the plant is experiencing does not match up with the deficiency symptoms of either of these nutrients.

The location of the deficiency (older leaves) suggests a possibility of Mg deficiency, but the manner in which it has affected Mike's plants all but rules it out. Mike said that the veins are yellowing first, followed by the rest of the leaf. This is not how Mg deficiency presents itself. It's just not how it works. Comprehende? Verstehen Sie, was ich meine?

I'll remain calm and focused on the facts, Brent, and I'll refrain from any name-calling. First, I never said it WAS a Mg deficiency, only that if it is a nutrient deficiency, it's likely to be Mg. I think you offered a theory based on a subjective interpretation of what you think a Mg deficiency should look like based on a net search or a book, and on a plant you have never seen. If I am wrong, I apologize, but my being wrong on this point puts you in possession of enough science to argue this point from a scientific perspective, so can we keep it that way, please?

I based my reasoning, in part, on the fact that I sent Mike the fertilizer he is using (MG). The fertilizer itself contains NPK, Fe, Mn, and Z. I also added STEM micronutrients to the fertilizer to insure that all nutrients (except the two that are not commonly soluble) would be furnished. The only elements missing from both the fertilizer AND the STEM are Ca and Mg. Though I stated I'm not certain it IS a nutrient deficiency, it's difficult to argue against the logic that IF it is a deficiency, it is almost certainly one of the elements not being supplied (especially since bark and peat based soils are known to be low in both Ca and Mg) or one that is pH induced. We can eliminate the pH induced deficiency of Fe because Mike is growing in a peat/bark blend that he did not lime, which means the pH of the soil is probably quite low, and there is very little or (practically speaking) no Ca or Mg in it. The only other thing that would block uptake of Fe is a toxicity of Mn, and with his fertilizer program, that's not happening.

I'll point out again that while experienced plantsmen don't necessarily ignore the photographs offered as being illustrative of deficiency symptoms, they do know that symptoms vary widely, and put far more stock in the known chemical aspects of nutrition that do not vary than in photos or written guidelines that are subjective and guaranteed to vary by plant.

I already stated this above, so I'm not falling back on anything, I just didn't feel like retyping it. ;o)

Take care.

Al

Can Mike post a pic.................?

eep..

daw,
Great idea. I will:-)

This was taken 2 weeks ago

{{gwi:51419}}

{{gwi:73446}}

Then yesterday.

{{gwi:54841}}

{{gwi:54840}}

{{gwi:73447}}

Sorry not clear on some closeups , still trying to learn camera...Thankyou

Mike, oh I can smell the flowers here! Beautiful. Thanks for posting.

Now that I got a look at your plant, it doesn't seem to be an Iron deficiency. (Still, it's recommended adding iron 3 times per year)
Mike, I don't know what type of soil your Gardenia is potted in, if you're using someone's remedy. I also haven't any idea what that remedy consist of. If you are using someones recepie, there may be something in the medium, a substitue for iron. Since I use mix my own soils, my medium calls for added Iron.

It looks very much like Nitrogen defiency. This sometimes happens when/after Gardenias bloom. How long have you had this plant? Ever fertilized and if so, what type do you use?
Its flowers are beautiful..Toni
Mike,

Thanks Toni for the compliment and trying to help.:-)
We will keep in touch...HUGS

Brent you meant well, and thanks too!
I just didn't appreciate the way you addressed Al. And because of this, some on this web are avoiding this, what could of been usful thread.
He NEVER makes anyone here do anything they do not want to do, nor criticize them for it. He just states the facts, as everyone else here does. No one here has ever taken the time or resources to help me to the point of sending free soil, fertilizers, free info, that anyone could charge for when teaching a class, and love to do it. If others do not agree with his views, please refrain from calling him cruel names and mud slinging. Seems like he is always skating on thin ice with many here, and that's not fair. Everyone has a boiling point.
It's not fair for anyone, including me! I have had my share of insults too. NOt from you though, thanks man!

PG is right,I think I will keep this between Al and me now, and another good friend on this forum..

Unfortunately, anything that could of been learned here is gone now. Only a couple will know how much has happened to my plants since I starting apllying Mg to my plants...I wish I could of shared my expereince!:-(

Thanks Al!

Thanks for understanding what works in harmnony with one of the best soils that you showed me to make.
Thanks for preventing me from killing my denias. The nursery here said you hit it on the nose!

No need to continue this thread.

P.s
Sorry all this had to happen. I was too STUPID than to know better to come here and ask for advice. I don't know the difference between asking someone in private, and asking here.....

I am begining see very mean people here. To stupid to stay away from this "houseplant forum".:-(

Sorry!

brent1985, isn't this fun?