I'll try. Only the top plant is large enough to perhaps bear any fruit this yr. Cut the smaller plant back severely and train the strongest shoot up a stake to try for fruit next yr. When that shoot reaches the top wire, pinch it back to get a shoot running in each direction. Those shoots, which grow this yr, will produce fruit next yr. So don't prune them off next winter.

On the larger plant I cann't tell what is last yrs wood and what is older. Only last yrs wood will bear this yr. If you are going to get fruit this yr it will be on the shoot labeled B1. Cut off that bottom shoot going left. Also cut off the shoot just to the left of B1. It looks like older wood. Always cut off as much older wood as possible while leaving enough of last years wood to produce a crop.

Now you are left with the B1 shoot that branches right and left. These canes are the one label C1 and above. If they are last yrs wood, they may fruit this yr. Cut off every side branch below C1. Keep one cane at C1 or higher going in each direction and see if they fruit.

Each yr after this you will keep one cane going in each direction that grew the prior yr and cut off all other canes. This gives you a T shaped framework after pruning each yr. It's as simple as that.

Your vines lack enough vigor to bear much fruit. They either need more water or more fertilizer, assuming they are getting enough light.

The Fruitnut

thanks fruitnut.
note that these pics are after i pruned a ton of wood away. does that change your assessment that they lack vigour?

I guess that makes some difference. About how long were the canes last season? If they were at least 6ft that is good. Over 12 ft is too vigorous. The plants are just pretty small looking for 3-4 yr vines.

The little things you have marked as D1 and D2 are just the tendrils. They have no function in fruiting.

The Fruitnut

the canes were definitly in excess of 6ft.
I only get half day sun so to the extent that there is a deficit in growing conditions, its probably inadequate light, although by autumn time, the vines produce a tremendous amount of wood and leaves, so i am not sure that the vines are lacking vigour. there were a few bunches of small grapes last year on the older vine. they sucumbed to mold or something like that before they could ripen, but i will spray this year and so i am hoping this year might be my year.
anyway, fruit nut, please confirm i understood you correctly-

on the older vine (top pic), I should remove all wood except b1 and c1 and what should be labelled as c3 (the cane on the top right hand corner which begins about 2 inches away from the green vine clip).
train c1 to the left and c3 to the right.
then next winter cut off c1 and c3 as they will be replaced by 2 new fruiting canes.
will the 2 new fruiting canes for next year grow out of b1 or will they grow out of c1 and c3?

thanks sooo much fruit nut

You've got the general idea. But if you can tell, try to keep last seasons wood. Usually it is dark red/brown with smooth bark. Older wood has rough bark. You may have already pruned off all of last yrs wood, hopefully not.

When you prune grapes hard every year like they need, they will put out a lot of new shoots. So you will have a lot of choices as to what you will keep the next yr. You cann't tell in advance exactly where the best wood will be. But once you get the hang of it grapes are very fun to grow. They are easy to prune, grow fast, are forgiving on pruning mistakes, and don't have the issues like most fruit trees of always being too big or tall.

The Fruitnut

hey guys, your conversations are good and I am learning from you, don't give up I don't know how to do it either. thank you