I wonder what that could be? Antonovka?

I don't know what variety they are using.All they told me was that they are "domestic". If they did use Antonovka I would at least have a good idea that they would be winter hardy in zone 6.

It wouldn't be Antonovka. A nursery buys seeds and plants them. Those seeds come from the seeds left over from apples that have been processed at a processing plant, apples that were juiced or peeled or whatever. They could be anything. So those seeds could be (in my part of the country) Reds crossed with golden, Fujiis which were pollinated by Machurian crab apple, Gala pollinated by whatever, etc. etc. If they were Antonovka they would be a premium seed product and would cost the nursery more money.
Another nursery buys the liners, or rootstocks, and grafts or buds them. Lines them out and grows them out for a year or two.
I can almost be sure they will be hardy enough for a zone 6. That isn't too severe. But those domestic seedlings are the lowest of the low. Absolutely nothing special. They will almost certainly produce the largest tree possible, comparatively speaking and depending on the sport.

Wow... I never knew that. Another reason i buy online!

A nice overview of rootstock used here in Wisconsin.

http://learningstore.uwex.edu/pdf/A3561.pdf

That's nuts. Seedling trees are never sold anymore because they require about 30 ft. spacing and take at least 8 years to fruit. On the bright side you can have an entire orchard on one tree- in about 20 years.

Those figures will vary unpredictably, of course. Another disadvantage is the extreme variability.

All that said, I love seedling rooted apple trees- they are the core of my fruit tree care business. They take lots of care- especially once they achieve 100 year old size. Contrary to popular wisdom, they are capable of producing large wonderful fruit and can be as productive per acre as dwarf trees. I've seen the data from a Japanese Fuji orchard on seedling roots. But the labor is greater- especially to keep the trees low and spreading.

I have two orchard's in my property, the first apple trees I bought on Antonovka, several years later I grafted to my own seedlings and trees are doing better then on Antonovka, I don't water, think my seedling root stock take the drought better, rooting deeper to get to the water table?...sometimes we go 2 to 3 month without rain.
Trees here never get large because of harsh winter /summer conditions.

Orchard on seedling root stock.

{{gwi:74401}}

Konrad

Just to be clear here. AFIK Antonovka is not domestic. Domestic are seedlings from ordinary seeds that are the byproduct of apple processing.
Antonovka can be grown from Antonovka seeds or it can be clonal Antonovka, taken from cuttings. The clonal ANT would be uniform. There is another that was used the same and that was Beautiful Arcade. In my part of the country they used these in the higher elevations to make what was called a Winter Hardy Framework. They would grow out a Beautiful Arcade, and I think MacIntosh too, into an open vase type of tree and then they would graft the desired variety onto the limbs of the BeArcade or Mac or whatever. When a really cold winter came along the scion varieties would be killed, but the Winter Hardy Frame would survive. You could get back into production faster as you still had the frame and roots.
They stopped this practice in the sixties as we just stopped having such severe winters in those higher elevations. They use to not utilize Malling roots as they didn't grow, just as Konrad is showing with Antonovka in his picture. Then started using the bigger Mallings, but in high density.
Today I would use the G series. I am not in a high elevation.

Konrad, how long did seedling rooted trees take to bear? I'm wondering how much cold induced dwarfing accelerates bearing.

Im not surprised the seedling trees are more vigorous and drought tolerant. They are also said to perform better than any of the clonals in excessively wet conditions. I have seen an abandoned seedling rooted orchard still thriving after many years of neglect in near swamp conditions.

I am growing my own seedling rootstock from Golden Delious seeds. I can graft any apple I want onto the stock and get apples within five years. We get no rain here from May to November most years and my orchard is not irrigated. Keeping the tree the size I want is a matter of pruning, but dwarfing rootstock will not tolerate our climate without summer irrigation. Al

Interesting stuff. I have about 15 seedlings from McIntosh apples... i'll probably grow them out and see what happens.

I grafted a Liberty on tiny Delicious rootstock, spring 2006. Last year it produced blooms. It was little more than a whip. Thought I might let it carry one fruit, so I thinned to a king, but that bloom died. Moved the tree last fall, and pruned it back again, but did notice it had fruiting spurs on the trunk. Liberty is known for early bearing.

This is interesting. All the years I read of very delayed fruiting on seedling rootstock and now find so many real life experiences that contradict the books. If seedling roots can fruit this quickly in completely different climates, maybe it is still a useful tool in the home orchard. I've always felt that trees on this stock are a pleasure to behold- they can become truly amazing specimens. That's why the estate owners I work for pay so much for me to manage them.

You plant a tree on this stock and you plant a legacy.

>>Konrad, how long did seedling rooted trees take to bear? I'm wondering how much cold induced dwarfing accelerates bearing. Most fruit at around 3 - 4 years, some at 2 - 3 years, have one called Redwell, fruited at around 8 years, this one is known to mature late.
One apple, the 922 End, for some reason never fruited yet at over 10 years, not sure if the scion had something to do with?
But I have seen young trees bearing fruits, think I should try new scion.

Konrad

What an interesting discussion this is! Inside my fence I have a number of high-density fruit trees, the apples on MM111 from Trees of Antiquity. I intend to water them monthly once established and keep them under 8 feet. Outside the fence I do not plan to water my trees at all once established, the dry orchard I mentioned in a previous thread. I plan to let those trees get fairly big, also to cut a swale above them for rainwater harvesting as Alexander6 suggested to me. That is next year's project, not this year's. I'd really love to have them on seedling rootstock. I love the look of a big old apple tree.

I plan to plant Gravenstein, Hauer Pippin, and King David. Any idea how long these would take to bear on seedling rootstock?

Rosefolly

Gravenstein is a slow bearer for me- way too vigorous. Wouldn't recommend that one on seedling rootstock- even now that I've been educated of its usefulness in this thread.

Timely thread, because I am growing on seedlings on which to graft and wondered if I was being too optimistic. I guess not. So, shall just let them rip.

All the literature I've read says that if you grow from seed you will most likely get inferior apples. If you grow a seed from a grocery store apple you will most likely get a crab-cross as they use crab apples for commercial polination. The best tasting apple out of our entire 2008 production was a seedling my son named "Fresh Candy" the seed came from a Fuji or McIntosh. I have no crabs on the property so it may have been crossed with Gold Del or Calville Blanc (or a hundred others) I've planted dozens of seedlings and as long as I know a crab apple was not involved I've been OK with the result. Worse case scenario I'll cleft graft or top work the tree with something else. The Fresh Candy tree was loaded by year 5 with an abnormally large crop. On a side note the best peach tree we have out of 200 or so is seed grown and very productive. It would be nice to see people trying seed grown trees like during the explosion of varieties that came out of the mid to late 1800s.

My Liberty produced a few apples the second year. It is grafted on a seedling rootstock. It looked like a two year whip when I got it.

My Mutsu benchgraft on seedling is loaded with blossoms. It is a three year old tree.

Honeycrisp and King whips on seedling also produced a few apples the second year.

I will only be planting on seedling rootstock from now on. I need the drought tolerance. I can't find seedling rootstock in the local nurseries. I buy benchgrafts online.

Zeuspaul