patriot, Read that a week or so ago.Intresting.
Wonder if herbs will take over medical drugs as more and more things show up to prove the inadaquecy of medicine and the inability to afford to buy medicine. An example of the medical industry killing the goose that layed the golden eggs because of their greed.

Well, I think far more don't come to the public eye than do.

I think herbs have the rightful place in healing.

What's alarming is that some corporations, which are already collecting personal information on the Internet, have been developing the means to scan computer users.

The process involves proprietary software that activates scanning technology embedded in a computer monitor's CRT (cathode ray tube). CRT scans are reported to be central to the concept of accumulating medical data on unsuspecting Internet users.
One company is reputed to activate its device when visitors to an Internet forum hit the "submit message" button.

Naturally I can't say more here.

Heard about that too eric.So is the goverment.

Eric, we are not afraid. Scare tactics do NOT work here (at least not on me).

When we scan others computers we are called "hackers" but when the government does it to us (over the false terror BS) it's called "security." This elite corrupted government can go to h***. Please pass that on would you just in case they miss this post.

This is the exact BS some of us Americans are fighting to change. Join the Revolution (get some cajones) and bring America back to the American People.

Complaining about side effects of life saving drugs and procedures is like complaining about the bruises that you get from seat belts in car accidents. Yes they are bad, yes we should pay attention to them and know the risks, yes some products should be taken off the market, no that does not mean that we should avoid all life saving drugs or that we should drop a product.

That all being said omniscan might be pulled from the market, more likely physicians will stop prescribing it, other contrast agents might be better, or other steps might be taken. Injecting sodium bicarbonate along with contrast agents shows promise for preventing kidney damage. Medicine is not perfect, but no herb is going to replace imaging technology.

Brandan, you have never been to many wrecks have you? the little bumps and bruises you talk about include bladders that are useless. The amount of bypass to little bags on your outside has jumped dramitacly since seatbelts became the law. Also broken pelvis are common among women.Yes caused by seatbelts. It may save some lives but it also causes some as in people who would have been saved if they had been thrown clear. About the only thing that saves lives is driving slower which has been proven since people have slowed down to save on gas efficiency. After driving on the interstate i have my doubts about driving slower tho.

The only way doctors will stop prescribing omniscan(name sounds kinda godlike)is if the government takes it off the market.

Medicine is a whole lot worse than not perect. Now that attention is being paid to it more and more problems are showing up. You could do your little share to help straighten up the system if you are a part of it.I am.

You're a hundred percent right about herbs not taking the place of imaging technology. But there is where good stops. Find out whats wrong and get to an herbalist beforethe medical community kills you by errors or other means and you can't afford it anyway. Yes the medical community does some good. but go to another country. Which reminds me. I've a neice who was in an auto wreck in one of those dinky little gas savers in November on the way home from church.The seatbelts did'nt work(proven by police) the youngman was killed instantly. No he was'nt thrown out. The car was smashed flatter than a squashed bug.My neice was paralized from the waist down. She got good treatment untill the insurance started running out.So now she's left at home with no way for therapy yet with partial feeling. Her grand father has affiliation with several groups(well known and respectable) and was told last week that a man in similar condition was sent to a facility in China and can now walk normally and live normally. So my neice is being readied at this minute to be sent to same clinic in China. Yeah, i know hearsay. but her grand father has talked to this man and of course the clinic. It for sure is better than the american med system who dumped her in the toilet.

Seriously you are arguing against seat belts? How about the head trauma that people get from hitting safety glass? Head trauma is serious, not quite as bad as decapitation which is what happened before, or having plate glass broken into your face, but still bad.

Also Doctors stop prescribing drugs all of the time, if you read the medical literature it is littered with therapies that were once considered a good idea but now are not, although the only way 100% will stop is if we round up and shoot all the altmed practitioners or make it illegal; bad medicine always survives in the altmed crowd, not one single dangerous non-efficaceous treatment has been cut out of altmed by altmed. Remember Vioxx? Not even the slightest bit illegal yet it is not used.

We have been paying lots of attention to medicine for as long as we have been purifying it out, the reason we purify it is so that we can pay more attention to it.

The only problem I see with the system is the leaps and bounds that altmed is making, someone gives a university a few million dollars and buys in something like acupuncture to treat heart failure.

When your car is smashed flat no amount of safety technology will save you, and no you aren't likely to be thrown to safety, the human body does not take well to being thrown.

The clinics in china and SE asia and the middle east use standard medicine, its primarily American doctors too. The reason they are able to do it is that they have capped liability, if a doctor at that clinic screws up and hurts some one they are out 10 thousand dollars; in america if there is a 1 in 10,000 chance that you gave a 59 year old over weight walmart greeter with a history of heart problems a heart attack you can loose 253.4 million dollars, hate to break it to you but that cost has to be passed on to someone. If she is lucy and doesn't have any complications then it will absolutely be in her favor to have gone, if she gets an infection in the hospital and looses a limb or ends up worse than when she went in then it will not. But hell its the same damn medical system just a different political environment that makes those clinics.

Had you read my post you would have seen that i was refering to your callus statement above about little bruises and black and blue spots from seatbelts. As an EMT i saw plenty of wrecks. and yes i've seen windshields cracked all to pieces by a head, and victem got up and walked away.Have also seen victem die from same. And all degrees in between.I surely wish you medical people would learn to read something completely once in awhile. ; ) That could be one of the problems you have with killing 100,000 people a year by mistakes. The third leading cause of death in the USA, after cancer and heart disease. And no i'm not arguing against seatbelts,just your callous attitude, or ignorant attitude. I don't know which. LOL

I gaurentee you would'nt have to pay a fortune to (instead of your graphic description,Why did'nt you Just say what you implied)an american peon. The records proving heart attack would have been changed immediately. Yeah, i've seen that also and known about other chart changing.NO Brandon, the peons family would have had to sell everything they owned to pay for the medical mistake.Boy, you really are an innocent huh? Very few people get to sue for medical malpractice and than most times they lose unless they're rich enough to pay for lawers to counter the expensive lawers for MED INDUSTRY. Why don't you look into that?

I do read medical liturature quite abit LANCET and AAAS(actually a science paper) are my favorites. How about you? doctors do stop therapys on occasion by choice but usually when forced by Gov. Why don't YOU read all of articles.

Why should'nt the medical business pay for it's own mistakes instead of me and mine?

Did i understand you to say. YOU wanted to round up all alternative medical practioners and shoot them. You know of course that includes herbalists.
Is that why you're here? to try and shoot us? Maybe you had better go to another forum. None of the herbalists take that kind of statement lightly and are likely to complain. Why do you want to get violent? Nothing is that bad.You can talk it over with someone you know.Talk to a doctor. Take some valerian root. But i suggest you get violence out of your head.It's not only wrong thinking, it's federally illegal and the Feds take a statement like that serious business.

I havent heard of any people being hurt by Alternative Medicine only by The western medical system. Beleive me it would make big headlines as that would sell papers and the med people would love to stop Altenative Medicine as you just proved. Whats your beef with acupuncture?
VIOX.....I saw a commercial about that the otherday.
YOU did'nt address the fact that the reason my neice is going to China is BECAUSE SHE WAS TRASHED BY THE US Medical system. Did i say she was 17.

Standard medicine in China? NOT!! They combine historacal along with Western. Better read up on that too. American Doctors? I don't think so.LOL!! For one They would'nt allow many, if any in to counter they're thinking. Two- no American doctor is going to lose all that money by going to China. I know there's none in the clinic my neice is going to. Opollog is a geography expert i bet he knows. Why not ask him?

The likelyhood of getting an infection in China or any other problem goes down dramaticly as you leave the USA med system.

No Brendon there are at least 37 other countries with totally different type of clinics. Get use to it. It's a fact.Have'nt you noticed Germany and France are the leaders in medical research at the moment.Not the US Medical business. Infact do you have any idea how many Americans have immagrated to Europe, Turkey and the Balkins? they even have expatriot newspapers in France and Turkey for them.I read them on occasion.

I love my wallmart greeters and stop and talk to everyone of them on my way into wallyworld.Not all of them are overweight. It's not like a requirement. Have you taken a good look at doctors ,nurses, techs lately? Just as many overweight. May as well include politicians, lawers,police,merchants, theives,preachers, and cell biologests.Are'nt very many obese firemen or CIA agents or FBI agents or archeologists tho.lol!!!!

>> What's alarming is that some corporations, which are already collecting personal information on the Internet, have been developing the means to scan computer users.

All attempts at humor aside, I was listening to the Clark Howard consumer show on the radio yesterday, and Clark described how data on the prescription history of 200 million US Americans is collected and used to create an individual risk score, which is used by insurance companies to determine who to insure, and at what price - for both medical insurance and life insurance.

Here's an example of the lunacy:

'I had a patient on Amitriptyline for migraines and they were denied life insurance because it's also an antidepressant,' said physician Kate Atkinson of Amherst, Mass. 'I had to explain it wasn't being used for depression.' Another patient was on Prozac -- not for depression, but for menopausal hot flashes. 'I wrote an appeal letter, and they still wouldn't give it to her,' Atkinson said.' (from article linked to below)

Just another reason to really question your physician and consider alternatives before getting a prescription filled - getting a prescription now might lead to a denial of coverage later.

Here is a link that might be useful: Records Aid Insurers but Prompt Privacy Concerns

So long as we are addressing the concept of reading things fully, it should be noted that my initial point was that we should pay attention to the side effects, but not throw out the initial technology because of them if they aren't as bad on net as what the technology prevents. If you disagree with that its because you like for people to suffer.

I never said that altmed practitioners should be shot, just that that would accomplish removing the most dangerous and least effective medical interventions from practice, I think that altmed practitioners who prescribe interventions that have been proven to have little effect or be more dangerous than what they treat should be prosecuted under the law, just like a physician who fails to meet the standard of care.

If you haven't heard of anyone getting hurt by altmed then you obviously aren't reading a whole lot of medical literature on the subject. People die of salt imbalances from chelation to treat autism and learning disabilities, die of AIDS because of HIV denial or because the herbalist they are seeing told them that garlic will cure it (hand to god I've talked to people who have heard this from an herbalist) or they get vibrio off of an acupuncture needle and loose an arm to vibriosis, a steep price to pay for a placebo effect (thats right, the needle doesn't even have the enter the skin, all that matters is that the person thinks it did).

If you saw an add for Vioxx you were watching a recording from a few years back. It was withdrawn, it probably should not have been, for some patients the slight increased risk of death beats the chronic pain, but it was withdrawn.

Your story led me to think she was treated well until her insurance let out, probably because of where you said "She got good treatment untill the insurance started running out." sorry I misunderstood that to mean exactly what you said, I'll try harder next time. Despite what you may think the chances of someone getting an infection in china are astronomically greater in China, Also it was not teh odds I was talking about, it was the compensation, the political part that results in the affordable price. When you pay for medical attention most of that money is going on to insurance, and yes the medical companies to pay for it when they screw up, just like any company they pay by having to raise prices in order to stay in the black, all costs are passed on to the consumer in every business, thats how it works, don't like it, too bad, math is immovably stubborn and no one donates money to big companies.

I would like to see a source for the claim that "Germany and France are the leaders in medical research at the moment. Not the US Medical business." In 2006 of the top 20 pharmecutical companies in the world the US firms accounted for 39 billion in R&D costs, of the 70.8 billion those top 20 firms spent, Germany was 3.8 billion of that and France was 5.6 billion of it. If you include CAM in your stats then I would take that as a point of pride in the US system, CAM is cheap to do, they pull something out of antiquity or thin air, then sell it for big bucks, never spending the time or effort to check that it is safe or that it actually works.

Here is a link that might be useful: Whats the harm

I'm really sorry you chose not to amend your statement of rounding up alternative practioners and shooting them as an option, instead denying the statement.

Oakleif, he can't he has a "bought and paid for" "Big Pharma" mentality. Eliminate the competition (whether the competition is the correct answer or not).

You are arguing with a drone.

Again, I never said we should, just that it would have that effect. Nothing to amend or deny. Killing off all people would end pollution but that doesn't make that a viable option (who would dispose of the bodies?); Pay attention to what I wrote instead of trying to make me out to be a murderer and you will see that I never said we should!

Brendan you really are a drone for "Big Government" aren't you.

Killing off the people to end pollution, geez. People have been here forever almost without pollution. Pollution came with Big Business (the evil few people). You buy what Big Business (the corporations, Big Pharma, Big Oil, etc.) sells which causes the pollution yet your answer is to kill of your neighbor for creating that pollution. Your moral compass is totally screwed up, IMO.

Jesus H Christ why don't you read? I said specifically that it wasn't a viable option! Also pollution comes in many forms and many of them predate big business, The high levels of pollution we see now are found where ever you have high numbers of people living together, cooking fuel does it no matter where you are or what you burn.

But the main point is that I never said to kill anyone!

I knew i'd find it bren. Deny all you want the intention is clear and you should really be careful what you say on line, Gov agents don't like threats(veiled or otherwise) and you really never know who is what on these forums or who they know. It also never pays to be obnoxious either it makes enemys.

I noticed my spelling has steadily gotten worse. May have to end my computer days. OH WELL!!!

Its not a veiled threat, or a threat at all. Its a fact, I argue that people should stop using these practices, and that people who do dangerous procedures with out any scientifically verified reason should be put in jail.

Bren you definately said SHOOT not jailed.

"although the only way 100% will stop is if we round up and shoot all the altmed practitioners or make it illegal; bad medicine always survives in the altmed crowd, not one single dangerous non-efficaceous treatment has been cut out of altmed by altmed."

That is shot or illegal to be effective, Not one did I ever say that they should be shot, I have said several times that the laws should be changed to require altmed to meet the same standards of evidence as mainstream med.

BREN, We could argue this for ever and actually its not what i think. Its how the government thinks you said it.Right? shoot spells shoot and the government is paranoid as all get out.

I don;t think I mentioned the government? Are you threatening to report me to the government or are you decrying me for being in cahoots with the government? If you wanted to display a valid example of a veiled threat you were certainly successful, although I can't be certain that that was your intent (hence the veiled part, right?) Would you mind clarifying? Its not as if threatening to report me to the government constitutes any violation of the Gardenweb terms of service like, say repeatedly spreading a false claim about someones express stated intentions violates this gem "You agree not to send via the GardenWeb Network or post on forums or any other place on the GardenWeb Network any message or material of any kind or nature that is unlawful, harassing, libelous, defamatory, abusive, threatening, harmful, vulgar, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, racially offensive, inaccurate or otherwise objectionable material or that encourages conduct that could constitute a criminal offense, gives rise to civil liability, otherwise violates any applicable local, state, national or international law or regulation, or encourages the use of controlled substances. For purposes of the immediately preceding sentence, "masked" vulgarity, obscenity or profanity (e.g. "f*ck") is deemed to be equivalent to including the actual objectionable word, phrase or symbol in your post, message or otherwise on the GardenWeb Network."

Dear bren, I can't help it if my nephew(an FBI agent) looks over my sholder while i'm on line. I f you do nothing else threatning. I hardly think they would waste their time on you. Do you?

I never did anything threatening in the first place.

Can we lay this silliness to rest now? brendan made a facetious comment that obviously was not intended seriously. Continually trying to present it as something different is the mark of a troll.

Like i said the gov is paranoid. Not me. And they are very serious, facetious statement or not.
You want a peice of the pie too eric? None of this is up to me. My nephew don't tell me nothing. Which is as it should be. Glad you think its silly.Glad you joined in. Now i bow out.