Rosefolly:

Not sure you could ripen Crimson Seedless but I really like it. In my greenhouse it ripens in October and hangs in great shape until January. It is red but doesn't always color real well. It does taste very good. My favorite grape is Summer Royal. Great flavor and very sweet. Another late grape is Autumn Royal but it's not red.

The Fruitnut

Crimson Seedless is a possibility then. How much heat does it need? Can you describe the flavor?

I'm also looking at the description of Vanessa, a very early red grape. Has anyone experience with this one?

There is always Flame but I'd rather not grow a grape I can buy at the grocery store anytime I please.

Rosefolly

Hi Rosefolley. I'm going to recommend Suffolk Red. It's midseason, unfortunately. This grape has it's pluses and minuses- seedless, disease resistant (v. labrusca), very aggressive grower, but not that productive, uneven ripening within each bunch, and a little slow to start producing. In my climate (I'm about 150 miles from you) the grapes have a flavor unlike any other grape I've grown- very mild and sweet with the unmistakable flavor of strawberries! My family is nuts about Suffolk Reds, and the berries disappear as soon as they get a slight blush of pink. You always hear about this fruit or that fruit that has the flavor of whatever, but when you actually taste it, you really have to use your imagination to get that flavor. My Suffolks REALLY do have that strawberry flavor. I've planted two more.

I had four red Reliances that were awesome in every way except flavor- they had an off flavor note that none of us could stand. I removed them all. Canadice (midseason) is a really nice reliable red grape.

Fruithack, I was hoping that both you and Fruitnut would reply, given the topic.

I had been considering Suffolk Red, but on Lon Rombough's site he clearly states that Reliance is superior. I wonder if the off taste you describe is climate- or soil-specific, caused by something present in your area but not in his. And of course I would have no way of knowing whether I have that same something here without trying for myself. The strawberry flavor sounds very intriguing, strawberry taste without fussing over strawberry pests and diseases.

I'm still hoping someone will speak up about Vanessa.

Maybe I could squeeze in two red grapes and experiment.

I've tried nearly all the hardy seedless like Suffolk Red, Himrod, Canadice, Glenora, Reliance, Venus, and Vanessa. Haven't tried Jupiter. But the ones I've tried aren't nearly as good as the CA bred grapes like Flame, Summer Royal, and Crimson; esp Summer Royal. If you cann't grow real CA grapes then grow the hardy types. But the CA bred are better for a reason. That reason is they have less of other things like hardiness and disease resistance. So take the ones selected for quality and yield or take ones selected for other traits.

That's how I see it.

The Fruitnut

Fruitnut, I don't have hardiness issues, but I do have issues with spraying, I'd rather not have to do it. Are you saying that I might have to spray the CA grapes? Please clarify.

Thanks,
Paula

Paula:

The CA grapes may have more powdery mildew than some others. My understanding is powdery mildew is a problem in all areas of CA. Where I used to live near Fresno, commercial growers sprayed all summer for PM. I've read that it's even worse near the coast. You are in between, doubt you would escape. I have none here in my greenhouse or outside.

Also you may not have enough heat esp for something late like Crimson. But I'd think Summer Royal would ripen given your very long season. In my greenhouse it ripens in July, August near Fresno.

If you want something you don't need to spray I'd go with blueberries. Any of the grapes will be more disease prone.

The Fruitnut

WOW! every single grape listed so far I have either planted last year or will plant this spring...O.K. so I wont have Steuben and have Red Flame instead of Crimson Seedless and now have doubts about the Red Flame doing well here, but as they say ...only one way to find out!
Ken

Rosefolley and Fruitnut- tastes vary. To my taste the labruscas come in at the top and bottom of the scale, with viniferas in the middle. Glenora, Jupiter, Suffolk Red, and Steuben are the best grapes I've had. Canadice is comparable to a good vinifera.Then the viniferas take the middle. There are lots of labruscas that really are not that good. Venus is OK, but not as good flame, crimson, ruby, etc. Reliance is just off flavored in my vineyard. But the labruscas are in a league of their own when it comes to disease resistance. I use NO chemicals in my vineyard, and have no disease or mildew problems. Also, last year's late frost wiped out the entire crop for the local wineries, but I got a big crop out of my labruscas. Vinifera grapes tend to have a lighter and more neutral flavor (almost flavorless to me) which is what supermarket shoppers and wine drinkers like. Good luck to you Rosefolley. When are you going to plant some jupiters, Fruitnut?

You should maybe be aware that some seedless varieties will develop seeds if planted near seeded varieties. Sometimes the seeds are small, but they're still there. It's a big no-no to plant a seeded grape near a commercial seedless vineyard.

Carolync1, I'm a couple of miles from the nearest vineyard, and they are growing grapes for wine so I think I'm fine.
How far apart do my seedless grapes need to be from my seeded ones? I am planting them in different parts of my garden but it is after all one garden.

Fruithack and Fruitnut, thank you both for sharing your experiences with me. It is true that tastes vary (you should hear us over on the Antiques Roses forum!), but getting more than one opinion helps me to make an informed decision. I am grateful, and I know more now than I did before. What ever I decide, it won't be a blind leap.

BTW, has anyone seen Lon Rombough's pruning DVD? I'm curious about it.

Finally, Mudflapper, I hope you are enjoying your garden adventures as much as I am.

Rosefolly

I'm not a grape expert (yet), but "don't plant seeded grapes near seedless grapes" sounds an awful lot like the "don't plant hot peppers near sweet peppers or you will get hot sweet peppers" myth. You will not get hot sweet peppers unless you plant the seeds next year. I can't see how grapes would be any different - can someone confirm?

My information on planting seeded grapes around seedless varieties comes from a guy who runs a big raisin grape vineyard. They lose money if there are vestigal seeds in the grapes. I also have had small seeds in seedless varieties I have planted near seedless varieties. I don't know how far they need to be apart to prevent this effect. I don't even really know how grapes are pollinated. But putting them in different parts of the yard, especially out of a direct bee-line (if they are pollinated by bees) is a good idea.

There are other fruits which will only be seedless in certain conditions - some tangerines are seedless if grown in an orchard of that single variety, but very seedy if cross-pollinated.

Oops. I have had seeds in seedless varieties planted near SEEDED varieties.

Some persimmons are seedless (and less flavorful) without cross-pollination. There are some zucchinis and cucumbers which also make seedless fruit without cross-pollination.

The seedless grape situation seems to be a little different. I'm not sure how the genetics of seedless grapes work. It may involve a recessive gene which needs double copy to "work". Maybe there's a "defect" in seedless grape pollen (from a natural selection point of view). Just a couple of guesses.

It is also interesting to me that you can plant sweet and hot peppers together without changing the nature of either fruit, but you can ruin sweet corn by planting it near the wrong variety (sweet corn near field corn, for example). And if you plant white sweet corn seed near yellow sweet corn, sometimes you get a mix of seed colors on your cob.

Many seedless grapes are seedless because the "abort" their seeds. In that case I can't see how pollen from a seeded grape could effect the "seedlessness" of the grape. The fruit is a ripened ovary of the MOTHER plant. I don't see how pollen will change the characteristic of the plant, causing it not to abort the seeds. Some seedless fruit is not truly seedless (such as watermelon), in that case, I could see it depending on pollen since the properties of the seeds would be changed, making them more noticeable. Maybe this is true of some grapes? Like I said, I am not a grape expert.

There is a clear difference between things like corn and peppers. Peppers are like grapes, ripened ovaries (fruits) - corn kernels are the actual seeds.

Here is a link that might be useful: Fruit

Seedless grapes can be stenospermocarpic where the seeds abort or parthenocarpic, where there are no seeds at all due to a lack of pollination. Seedlessness is not affected by pollination except in the parthenocarpic types (which are rare), so you don't have to worry about placement of seedless and seeded types for the vast majority of varieties. All stenospermocarpic seedless grapes have vestigial seeds, but most are very small and soft and not an issue. Some varieties tend to produce occasional hard seeds, and rarely a seedless grape will produce many hard seeds for unknown reasons. The genetic basis of stenospermocarpic seedlessness involves at least three genes, but is poorly understood.