gonebananas,

I just have to add the cost of food is so cheap. The big box stores, WalMart and fast food are part of the problem.

If people realized the true cost of food. They would do more local growing, purchasing.

Growing selections for your Zone makes life so much easier.

Eric

Prosperity, sort of what Eric mentioned.

1. The more prosperous a people, the less they have to worry about personally laboring after their basic needs, and the more time they can spend at leisure/entertainment. Fruit growing is more work compared to ornamentals, and it's just easier for people to buy food.

2. Another reason is that people don't realize that some home grown stuff can be better than what is available at the store. People can't miss something they've never had. Some people have the perception that home grown is worse than store bought. They had a bad experience with a friend giving them substandard fruit (and around here, untended fruit is going to be substandard).

3. People move around more and realize that it's quite possible that by the time the tree comes into full production, someone else may enjoy the fruits of their labor.

And now for the blasphemy. I don't think a large interest in home orcharding is necessarily a good thing. At least with the current mindset of Americans. The last thing I want is more neighbors putting in more fruit trees with the idea the trees will take care of themselves. All it does is increase the disease/insect load. I've said it before, if enough people in a community individually plant enough fruit trees, they will eventually have many of the same issues as a commercial orchard. In effect, the collective whole is a commercial orchard.

It would be a different story if all the people who bought fruit trees could be convinced to actually give them care, but that may be easier said than done.

It boils down to fashion, lack of interest and various other assumptions.

Fashion:
The early homesteaders in my region were dust belt and/or corn belt refugees. Home gardens, orchards and farms were the norm. It became fashionable for subsequent generations to move out of that dynamic and into the suburbs. It also became fashionable to schlep to the store and buy stuff in packages and then throw away the wrappers. The backyard became a lawn, large patio, and pool with cast iron plants placed in haphazard fashion.

Lack of interest:
Folks are busy. Everyone of working age is working like a dog, furthering education and rushing around doing activities outside the home. Folks will bust their hump for that big screen TV, shiny new car, or just to pay the mortgage -- as opposed to cutting back a little and taking time for some of the simpler pleasures. There's a lot more interest in successive blooming of flowering plants, roses and such -- than there is for successive ripening of fruit trees.

Other assumptions:
It takes too much time, space, money and water to have a small orchard. It's also back breaking work. How we present orcharding, and ourselves as a community, will go a long way toward planting the seeds of perception. Lets face it; most people these days turn everything into religion. Be it politics or backyard gardening. Monsanto, lawns and Miracle-grow are the spawn of Satan. Compost and heirloom varieties will save the earth. Heck, there are religious factions in this forum regarding various backyard orchard culture concepts. The majority of us here would call many of these things false assumptions. The religion part is true for the most part, but its best to focus on the overall concepts and not so much on how the congregation twists things.

We can laugh or scratch or heads in disbelief at these dynamics, but they are very real to a lot of people.

A good friend says that she would cut down any fruit tree in any house she ever bought - because, apparently they drop fruit everywhere in the yard and then there are rotting fruit and fruit flies everywhere! And she has hard-scaped her whole yard and planted evergreens on the border. And a lot of the people I know think this way. And they drive to Costco and come home with crates of fruit in their SUV - so cheap and healthy! She plants bulbs and annuals in containers all the time. And I shudder to think what would happen to my yard if I sold my home to someone like her.
No, the thinking of such people cannot be changed. Believe me, I have tried! You either like to do it or you don't. It cannot be taught.

A few things that may discourage- soil may not be right or may contain diseases or destructive pests that kill the young trees, trees may grow well but never fruit due to diseases pests or late frosts, fruits may fall off or be diseased and wormy if you don't spray regularly (or are inclined to try "organic"), birds and deer and squirrels, being overwhelmed by the crop and not having thought through what to do about harvesting, processing or selling/giving away, etc. Also the hobby can get out of control pretty fast if you collect varieties of anything, believe me.

That said, growing your own is a joy, something you can be proud to achieve.

Time, ambition , knowledge, desire, etc. I guess the same reasons I don't like to do mechanical work and a lot other things that others like to do. Different strokes and all that.

i think lack of success has discouraged many people who have tried growing fruit. & the local nursery's here dont seem to have first hand experience. the big box nursery's just cater to demand without providing any guidance, so customers just try what tastes good at the grocery store.

we have bartlett pears being offered, sure to die of fb; rootstocks arent identified; spraying requirements are never mentioned. the only nursery i totally trust in all of texas is womacks.

the web should help all this, info is much more readily available than before

What really helps is good nursery's in my neck of the woods in Ventura County, California. Jon's Fruit Trees in Somis is one I go to a lot. They carry Dave Wilson fruit trees and help to encourage and teach. Once you have fresh fruit off your own fruit trees it makes store bought fruit taste bland.

I think the only explanation for a particular lack of interest in your state has to be fashion. Every other reason cited does not hold particular sway in your state comparatively. I know that North Carolina has a tremendous in-flux of people from further north who are probably bringing interest in fruit growing with them. Is that the nearby state you are referring to?

How is the relative interest in vegetable gardening there? That's usually the gateway drug to home-grown fruit obsession.

Olpea, I think you may exaggerate the risk of untended fruit trees a bit. I tend orchards all over NY that have giant unsprayed apple trees just outside their property line- sometimes with branches literally touching the trees I'm caring for. These sites haven't been that much harder to manage. It is abaondoned commercial orchards that seem to be the problem IME.

Hi, you won't recognize me as I post very infrequently because I'm so new to gardening, that I have very little to contribute to others. I often read the forums hoping to find answers to questions I'm afraid to ask because I know they've been asked and answered. In fact, this may be off-topic, but I'm going to tell you the reasons I DO plant fruits and vegetables.

I do it for my children. They thought hungry people should just go to the store and buy more food. In order to show them that it wasn't that simple, and so that they understood from where food really comes, we planted a garden. They enjoy planting and watching everything grow, but have low stamina for helping with weeding, and interest in picking varies. High at the beginning of the season, but it wanes when the novelty wears off. They're young (5 & 7), so I hope they grow into it more. We belong to our local botanical garden (MoBot) and they encourage home growers to share their surplus with food pantries. We plant more than we know we can use, and share with neighbors, friends, and food pantry. It's nice to participate in a truly worthy community service effort.

I do it because I can. I have enough property, a good sunny hill, and the physical ability to do the work, knowledge and skill is a bit lacking.

Fresh grown produce really does taste better than the store bought. I was really surprised.

It's convenient. I can run up my hill to make a salad instead of stopping at the store.

I'm tired of the continuous anti-alien e-mails my neo-con friends and relatives send me, even though they have no interest in doing anything themselves about the problem. Nor do they care about the root cause of the problem, how we all contribute or the adverse conditions in which the illegals live because they are trapped in a shadow society. What I can't grow, I try to buy from local growers as much as possible. I use more "in season" fruits and vegetables, and supplement from the grocery store as little as possible. It's not 100% of our use, and it's a small effort, a mere drop in the bucket compared to the magnitude of the problem, but it's something and hopefully will make a difference eventually. Its the only way I know to send a message to the giant agri-businesses who use illegal labor and unsustainable growing practices. We also buy all our beef (100% grass fed, no hormones, antibiotics, steroids) from a local rancher (family owned and operated) who uses small local butchering/packing services for the same reason. Were looking for a similar source for poultry & eggs. We pay a little more for our food, but not what I would consider significantly higher costs, and I figure its a lot closer to the "true" cost of food. I have not gone so far as to make everything myself from scratch, nor am I considering taking that next step. Everyone has their own limits to what they are willing and able to do, but I believe that those who complain the loudest about the problems should be doing the most to fix them.

It's healthier. I grow organic, so I know what my family is eating.

I like gaining the experience and having a useful skill, whether or not it is one I really need, it's a sense of accomplishment when we harvest and eat something we grew ourselves. I also enjoy the challenge, but thats probably because were not totally dependent on the results either.

On topic, the most discouraging aspect of growing is the pests. So far, I have yet to enjoy (literally) the fruits of our labors from the blueberries, corn, and soybeans. My soybean plants can't get established because of rabbits. The corn is harvested by the squirrels before it is ready for us to harvest. We have yet to get to a ripe blueberry before the birds. My second season I tried netting for the blueberries and strawberries - but after the 3rd dead bird and one dead rabbit, I took it all down, it was just too sad. We are thinking of putting up a chicken-wire fence and enclosing the whole thing, but that will certainly make access more difficult. I am also considering planting even more blueberries and corn so that we get more than our animal neighbors will take, but I'm afraid I may just get more animals migrating to my yard for the food. I usually plant 1 - 1 1/2 dozen corn plants in three or four 2-week cycles to extend the season. I had 3 blueberry bushes (but lost one) and just ordered 3 more.

As far as fruit trees - patience is a virtue, but not one of mine. The local nurseries do not sell varieties that I believe will do well in my area or that we particularly like. I would have to order a very small tree, and wait until my children go to college before it produces. We've moved nearly every 5 years, I'm not sure we'd ever get fruit. I'm considering a 50'+ "hedge" of raspberries because of the relative ease and quicker results. I had wanted to do some cherry trees, but can't seem to identify a variety that would be suitable to my area and good producing/tasting. Once I think I've found something that would work, and then I read several opinions that indicate the fruits aren't very good or that they don't produce well, or are short-lived. I really don't have the inclination or capacity to maintain and harvest very large trees. My plan is to send my two little monkeys into the trees to pick. I'm looking at some dwarf varieties. I also don't want my whole yard to be an orchard. I'm looking at self-fertile varieties for the most part, because I want one specimen tree that will be attractive and fruit-bearing. I might possibly consider two trees if pollination is mandatory, but then I could have only one fruit variety instead of a couple. I'm in a suburban subdivision, not in a rural area. This is a hobby, not a way of life for us. So it has to be attractive, simple, and tasty. Honestly I've been trying to identify an edible hedge and 2 - 3 edible landscaping trees for almost 3 years now, and haven't decided on anything. Apples and cherries are our preference, but the varieties that are available and seem to be easy for the home grower arent varieties we enjoy. Im looking into plums and peaches, even though they are less popular with the boys. The annual vegetable garden is far less intimidating. If something doesn't work out, I don't plant it again, but haven't lost much for trying. The trees require a bigger investment of money, time, and space, so failure would be more disappointing.

Thanks to all who contribute - I enjoy the information,
Sherri

Hman,

I think the difference b/t our perspectives here, may be climate, I can account for no other. I've read before you have significant amounts of unsprayed trees around the orchards you manage, and still don't seem to have the pest pressures I'd expect (i.e. few problems with: OFM, second generation CM, Green June bug, Stink bug, being able to grow vegetables organically). As I've mentioned before, I accept your word for it, but the situation baffles me. Again, I can only come to the conclusion our differences are climatal. My thought is, perhaps the more conducive the climate for pests, the more liability untended fruit trees create.

Sherri, very insightful post. My only comment, if you haven't tried it already, you may try skinning the peaches and plums before feeding them to your two young boys. When I was young I hated peaches, plums, and tomatoes. Couldn't understand why everyone else in my family seemed to love them. When I was much older, someone had me try peaches w/o the skin and really enjoyed them. Figured out that it was mostly the texture of the skin I didn't like (and the skin has a little bit of tartness to it). Also figured out I liked tomatoes just fine w/o the skin. Before my grandfather died, he told me he always peeled his tomatoes before eating them. Maybe there's a genetic component.

You seem to already know this, but for the benefit of perhaps others, you'll not want to try to get your kids to eat store bought peaches, plums, or tomatoes. Generally the quality of these particular fruits from the grocer is so inferior that the children are unlikely to enjoy them, skinned or not.

Sherri...consider a mulberry. I grew up in a yard with mulberry trees and when they were ripe we kids climbed each tree and would sit up in there with friends eating berries. (and these were what we in this forum would consider inferior, seedling varieties).

REasons people do not do this. Immediate gratification isn't a common occurrance for people in this hobby. Mulberries friuted for me the year after planting (just a handful or so, by the 3rd year production was better). Pawpaws took 7 years, kiwi's 6 years, pears (4 + 5 years and counting without fruit). Persimmons 4 years no fruit, Cherries 3 years finally fruit on sour (I haven't done sweet) plums & apricots 6 years and no fruit (though the plum did try to set fruit, but it never got to the ripening stage due to cold weather and squirrels.

Berries are easier. Red Currants are definitely worthwhile (especially if your kids will eat pomegranites as the fruit of red currants is comparable taste-wise. Stay away from the black ones, though).

blueberries, we get some, the birds get most of them. Serviceberries are favored even more than blueberries by my family, but it seems the birds feel the same way as well. We get as many raspberries and blackberries as we have wanted from 6-10 plants of each. These are not difficult to grow either.

Our favorite fruit growing in the yard is alpine strawberries. The yellow ones are not noticed by the birds or squirrels and we think they taste better anyway.

I'll admit I am daunted by the possibilities of disease problems, but I've been fortunate that I have not had to deal with too many in the past. (though going to the local garden center looking for something to kill "imported currant worms" and having the employee ask me "why would you import something that would destroy your plants?" is a story I still find quite funny)

~Chills

I think its mostly fashion. In my area the Permaculture movement has pretty good sway. Partly that's because of the Apricot trees that were planted around town decades ago. Apparently in the fifties there were only one or two nurseries and they sold Apricot trees as a kind of flowering/fruiting tree. The trees aren't particularly well adapted for producing fruit but they thrive otherwise, and about every four years we all get a good crop. Consequently people are receptive to the idea of a fruit tree or two.

We have a marginal growing area, but also fewer bug problems. The idea that if you are going to plant a tree it might as well bear fruit is not a hard sell.

The 'net has helped. Basically it helps counteract the bad variety selection that is practiced by our big box stores and sometimes nurseries that should know better (Dorsett Golden apple in Z5!).

Thanks for the suggestion on the peaches and plums. I hadn't considered that. I'm not a big tomato fan myself (but I'm just odd about certain foods). Both boys love the cherry tomatoes, skin and all, so that never occurred to me before. It is possible that the flavor of the store-bought plums and peaches just hasn't been enticing, and you can't expect much from canned diced fruits in syrup or juice either. The boys have never liked fruit cocktail, canned, jarred or in those little disposable cups. I never blamed them. I may scrap the idea of the fruit trees as not being ideally suited to our needs and abilities, and pursue the raspberries. The boys love berries, especially strawberries which seem to be fairly easy, and blueberries which have been more challenging. We've also had success with watermelon and muskmelon which are both quite popular, and a simple annual crop. One honeycrisp or grannysmith apple tree would really please me if I thought it possible, but I'm contemplating a black walnut which should grow well in my area, and be a good shade tree. It may provide more benefit to our wildlife than us, but we do like nuts for baking and on salads. I'm sure it would be significantly less effort than a fruit tree.

I'm a little late to chime in here, and prior posts have touched on this, but in my opinion/ experience people don't grow fruit because nobody cooks for themselves anymore. And everyone cares what the neighbors think, and fruit trees are "messy", and in a lot of places a fruit tree in the front yard would be a code violation, because society cares how we "look" not the substance of what is there. Non-fruiting trees are to houses as plastic surgery is to people.

I grow tomatoes and fruit because I love good food, and you can rarely buy that flavor of perfect ripeness of a commercially impossible variety. I posted last year that I stopped growing my own strawberries, because we have some amazing small farmers in our area, mostly Hmong families, who grow the tiny tender delicious varieties to sell at their stands next to their fields. Their strawberries are way better than mine, and so I gave mine away and focused elsewhere.

But most people in our region don't even buy the delicious berries, they buy the rock-hard and tasteless but large and beautiful ones from the big box stores, because that's where you go to buy food. It always amazes me when I participate in a pot-luck or bake sale and people show up with plastic boxes of cookies from Costco. Or they are so proud they brought "homemade" cookies, i.e. slice and bake. And they are astounded I brought a cake made with flour from my kitchen. Or a pie! They've never seen a pie from scratch!

But for many people, growing fruit or vegetables, like baking a cake, is just too much effort, when it's so much easier to just go buy one at the store, unwrap it and put it on the table. And I do try and not be a snob about it, but geez, can't they taste the difference??? Why is it worth it to spend hundreds of dollars to get the best Blu-Ray DVD player because the "video experience" is so much better, but nobody cares if they put rocks masquerading as tomatoes in their mouths on a daily basis?

Carla in Sac

But wasn't the question, "why are people in S. Carolina less interested in growing fruit than people in other states?"

Not that the general question of why Americans would rather eat crap that's easy than wonderful stuff that takes a bit of effort isn't an interesting topic. I think it's because we've become stupid from being lied to constantly by the advertising industry and have forgotten that the simple pleasures are what makes life worthwhile. Of course the simple pleasures can be a chore to get when they include tree-ripened fruit and home-made bake goods from scratch.

Hi there!

Im brand-new to fruit growing, and it looks like I must have had a stroke of 'dumb luck', or beginners luck, or something like that.

My dwarf owari Satsuma mandarin tree I bought in a five-gallon pot and put in the ground last April gave me well over a dozen deliriously marvelous-tasting tangerines, and although the skin didnt come off quite as easily as the ones commercially grown in Japan where I have lived for quite a few years, it wasnt horrid (i.e., having to use your fingernail to scrape off ¼' shreds of peel at a time), and the taste was so amazing it was absolutely worth the slightly increased peeling effort! Unfortunately my neighbors helped themselves to most of them and I only got about five. I tried the 'three in one hole' planting method, and the mandarins 'tank mates' (I stuffed them all into a 2x4 space between the veranda wall and the retaining wall so its functionally a large container) are a Moro blood orange, which gave me a beautiful growth flush (x2) but no fruit or flowers yet, and a 'margarita tree' (a wee dwarf Mexican cocktail/key lime) that did flowers but no fruit yet. Its getting ready to bloom again, so fingers crossed!

The back story is that I grew up eating fresh fruit (mostly citrus, pears and a few others) and veggies from my fathers garden in suburban San Diego (my grandmother was an avid gardener too), and was in for a seriously rude awakening when I went off to college as to how awful fresh produce from the supermarket is by comparison, so I had always wanted to have my own garden and a few fruit trees ever since.

My other adventures in fruit include a lovely dwarf Cuban Red banana tree and a graceful little trio of Rajapuris, a 'misty' blueberry bush for which I just put in a companion blueberry (Sharp Blue, since I heard they produce better in pairs), a pair of raspberries (Red Heritage and Candy Red), and another pair of Chandler and Albion strawberries in a pot and red and white Alpine strawberries in the ground. Strawberries did wonderfully and produced some amazing-tasting fruit. I got one (yes, '1') blueberry from the misty bush last summer, but it was the best blueberry Ive ever tasted, which is why I bought a mate for it. The raspberries had to fight for their lives with xi gua vines and out-of-control tomatoes, but survived the battle and look like theyre getting ready to pop for spring. I also did melons interplanted with corn in wine barrels in the parking lot (for real!), and believe it or not, got a few delectable melons (HaOgen, mini honeydew, although the icebox watermelons got mowed down by aphids and didnt do so well) and corn.

I had a mind-rendingly terrible time deciding which of all the trees I absolutely, desperately needed, and which I had to reluctantly do without. The ones that got budgeted out were grapefruit and avocado, although I still harbor fantasies of getting a couple more wine barrels and putting in one of each that I can take with me the next time we move (I extensively researched the avocados and identified a couple species that dont grow to be enormous and are self-fertile). The others are a gift to the neighborhood. (Were currently renting a unit in a duplex in Chinatown, which is full of immigrants to whom using whatever outdoor space they can get their hands on to grow something edible is as natural as breathing, so I know the gift will be appreciated!)

Back to the point of this thread, I am mystified at why people would balk at growing fruit, perhaps because Im from an immigrant family myself(?), however I think Sautesmoms post is spot-on. I have actually found the regular garden veggies to be far more back-breakingly labor-intensive than my fruit. Oh, and one other factor I forgot to mention: other posters discussed aerial attacks by birds and ground assaults by other vermin. I am a die-hard cat person, and although when I started gardening I quickly learned the reason why there are people who loathe cats, I suck it up (not literally!!) and do the janitorial work (scooping what has become the neighborhood litter box) in exchange for a vermin-free yard. The only pests I have trouble with are the ones too small for the cats to bother with: aphids, scale insects and keel-back leaf-hoppers, so Im going to get a couple frogs this spring and see how that works, in addition to neem oil spray. I dont even want to go there with diseases. (Knocking loudly on wood!!!) Another important part of the back story is that both my (very recent immigrant) husband and I are gourmet cooks.

Finally, I couldnt agree more that this hobby quickly takes on a life of its own. Our garden (a.k.a. Brenda Ks Great Boondoggle) and its upkeep have seriously threatened forward progress with our main thing, which is our musical ensemble, The Panache Orchestra!)

Brenda K

P.S. (I know this is too long already!) Im intrigued by the idea that densely populated sub/urban areas with yards full of fruit trees become a de facto commercial orchard with all its problems. Here in SoCal our climate is very favorable to insect pests and spread of diseases, and I have never seen so many citrus and banana trees (as well as papayas and pomegranates) in peoples tiny inner-city yards as I have here in Chinatown. The totally un-maintained tree across the parking lot wall that keeps us well supplied with orange-y Meyer lemons was infested with mealybugs and whiteflies (which we sprayed off, and I think I also threw it a little citrus food to give it some love), but I didnt end up with a significant problem on my side of the wall (again, knocking wood!).

P.P.S. Im thinking of getting a little almond tree. Somebody talk me out of it I dont have room!!

Its a mystery, really. In Phoenix, Arizona, citrus grows easily and has almost no natural pests except birds if they are really starving, and perhaps gophers. A citrus tree not only requires no pruning, it should not be pruned. a Kumquat tree is not only gorgeous, it is a bit more cold-hardy than other citrus and yields highly decorative fruit that ripens in mid-winter, that typically costs $4 per pound in the stores. Rosemary grows as a hedge. "Trimming the hedges" and realizing that you just clipped $1,000 worth of spices onto the lawn is an experience no gardener should miss. Yet, the average 'zonie is oblivious. If his house was built in an old orchard, it will have a few trees, usually Marsh white grapefruit. Otherwise, no trees. If there are citrus trees they will pruned from their natural globular bush shape to a "tree" shape, which reduces yield and requires the owner to paint the bark with ugly white latex paint to ward off sun-scald. Go figure.

Some of the older houses have olive trees. Very beautiful and graceful olive trees. Almost no one bothers to harvest the fruit. Occasionally an Italian or Greek tourist visits and practically faints at the waste. The city of Phoenix actually has banned the growing of olive trees in the city. Nobody said "boo"

Still, I think its good for us to fight the good fight. I planted a 'Moro' blood orange when I lived there in a kind of an awkward spot in the garden. I got exactly one low-quality orange before I moved. When I went back I checked the old place out and I was somewhat surprised to see that the tree was still there, but bigger of course. I suppose the new owners decided they sort of liked having blood orange juice during the winter from the pretty tree in the corner of the yard.

I guess the moral of the story is that its good 'fruit tree karma' to make a knowledgeable planing of a good tree, even if its dicey that you will stay there; Lord knows I've benefited from the plantings of many who have come before me.

P.S. If I lived in South Carolina, I wouldn't mess around. I would get a quality blackberry cultivar. That should work. If you get a thorny variety it can even be a crime deterrent if you artfully plant it, and you don't have to wait forever to get fruit.

Brenda wrote:
"Here in SoCal our climate is very favorable to insect pests and spread of diseases, and I have never seen so many citrus and banana trees (as well as papayas and pomegranates) in peoples tiny inner-city yards as I have here in Chinatown."

Hi Brenda,

SoCal does not have a climate favorable to major insect pests, as measured by lower Midwest and Southeast standards. Places like CA are much more conducive to neighborhoods of intensively planted fruit trees. Even commercial orchards in CA don't have the pest load of Midwest orchards. The difference in climate is the reason virtually all organic fruits and vegetables are grown out west (there are other organic farms scattered throughout the rest of the nation, but they're a drop in the bucket).

Sometimes very subtle differences in climate can make significant differences in pest pressure. For example, in KS, as one moves west there is less precipitation due to the rain shadow of the rockies, consequently significantly less pest pressure. Extreme western KS qualifies as a dessert (tumbleweeds and all) but here in the east we get plenty of rain and plenty of humidity through the growing season. It's places like this that significant amounts of unmanaged fruit trees make pest pressure very intense.

I very much appreciate all these deeply perceptive and, to me, quite useful comments and observations. I am learning a lot and definitely taking notes. And I have certainly laughed in several places with the low-key humor by good writers.

Additional comments will be carefully read and thought about as well.

With regard to what neighboring state or states in the general region I was referring to as having more interest, really several. I see distinct signs of greater interest in TX, MS, NC, and FL (exotic tropicals and easy citrus help there) and possibly in GA. In some of these states (e.g., Houston area of TX) there is organized interest, facilitated by or at least assisted by the extension service.

I'll have some more detailed comments later.

Chills - thanks for the mulberry suggestion, and I may also look into alpine strawberries also. I grew up in a house with what we called a mulberry bush. I can't say for sure that it was. The berries were sort of a yellow (very pale yellowish-green, almost white) color blackberry looking thing. I don't think my grandparents planted it, I think it spread into the yard from a neighbor, and it was probably 25 years old before I was born. We actually use to hide in it and eat the berries. It was sort of like a bramble. The berries were excellent, but my grandmother considered it an eyesore. I do live in a suburban neighborhood with HOA rules. I've gone with the popular and advanced practice of asking foregiveness not permission with the garden. So far none of my neighbors have taken note of the garden, other than to ask for tomatoes, and I'd like to keep it that way. I'm not concerned over fruit on the ground, but a tree would have to be reasonably attractive, and not terribly invasive. I can't grow and untamed 7' bramble bush. Is it possible the mulberry tree in my granparents yard was in that condition just from lack of any care? Do mulberry's have to be pruned a lot to grow in tree form or is a pretty standard tree shape it's natural habit? The nursery rhyme does reference the mulberry bush, not tree ... maybe it's a specific species I need to select. I can think of a perfect spot for a mulberry tree - so long as it could be maintained to a fairly standard tree shape and size without intense effort and skill. I'm capable of simple pruning once or twice a year, but anything delicate requiring a lot of skill or prone to many diseases and pests is probably beyond my skill level. Thanks for the input.

I imagine I do have to be somewhat careful because we are in a humid and wet area (Missouri, your flood dollars at work), so I guess we are at risk of pest problems. I don't want to contribute by planting more than I'm willing and able to maintain, or leave a future homeowner a high maintenance orchard that they don't or won't maintain.

Smlechten:

My condolences on the HOA situation.

Mulberries are one of the most delicious fruit in the world, but there is no way an HOA would allow one! Many varieties are blackberry-colored, and the fruits stains WAY more than blackberries. There are white mulberries, but even those drop a lot of fruit, and both kinds attract a lot of birds, resulting in bird droppings. Plus they get to be really big trees, the old-timer ones in our local park are bigger than the giant oaks, probably 60-70 feet high and wide. There is a contorted mulberry bush sold, but that's probably the "messy" one you remember from childhood.

But if you're ever in Sacramento, you can come snack on my tree!

Carla in Sac

When I was living in Urbana, Illinois there were two weed trees that came up everywhere- ailanthus (tree of Heaven) and Russian mulberry. Both grew right up against houses and cracked foundations, and were hard to get rid of. Mulberry has large roots right at soil surface, and the trees grow very tall and spreading. The fruit is tasty but results in stained fingers (plus the seasonal purple mess from bird droppings on sidewalks and cars that sautesmom mentioned).

Mulberries don't create more bird droppings than bird feeders- which also attract and feed rats and other vermin. Wonder if HOA's ever reject them? If you have flexible ethics, you could always sneak one in saying it was a male mulberry that you are shocked turned out to be a female- I doubt anyone would complain unless you have a very nearby neighbor with a white home.

A mulberry can be managed to a fairly compact tree with aggressive pruning- either by relentless stub-cutting (I've read) or by removing all but weakest new growth that tends to weep (which is how I manage them). Pruning them to a weep creates a beautiful shape and brings the fruit down where you can pick it. Requires at least 2 prunings a year, but at least that's better than actinidia arguta (cold hardy kiwis).

LOL. I guess you have to step around purple mess on sidewalks and clean it off your own windshield to understand the difference from regular bird droppings. Probably not an issue except where there are lots of mulberry trees. Even there, it's only for a few weeks each year.

I have mulberry trees and never have noticed a single purple stain anywhere except my hands. The closest tree, which has a 20' spread (kept compact) is about 60 ft from my white house. Is there a legit source for this "rural legend"? If the tree was against my house it might be a different story but the birds don't perch on my house after eating- why would they when they can hang in the tree or other trees? I even have a white plastic roof which is a special material for flat roofs.

(We have sort of hijacked this thread, but....)

Harvestman--your experience of "non-messiness" may be a result of the different types of mulberries, and in Zone 6 I doubt you have a Morus Nigra like I do. Even today, 5 months after my last fruit dropped, my sidewalk still has black stains, fading, but there they are. And my tree fruits from June through September/October, so it's a summer-long thing. And yes, they are WAY more damaging than birdseed droppings!

Don't get me wrong, I couldn't care less, because my priority is eating, not pleasing the neighbors [ :)] but then I don't have any HOA police where I live. I am fine with purple/black blotched sidewalks. And while yours may be out in a field, Smlechten is worried she (he?--sorry!) might get in trouble for growing tomatoes. I don't see how a mulberry of any variety wouldn't be a problem. But from the American Mulberries I have seen (rubra???) their fruit is much lighter in color and the harvest is only a month long, so I think those would cause less "damage" if a mulberry were acceptable.

Carla in Sac

Could be, Carla. Also I have no sidewalks in my neighborhood and the mulberries only land on the earth, which can't stain. I'm in an area zoned for a minimum of 2 acres and most of the land is unbuildable anyway so we are talking about much different environments.

I can see how even Illinois Everbearing might be a problem in a conventional neighborhood if branches are spreading over sidewalks. Still, even a stainer could probably be contained in a decent sized back yard without anyone being the wiser- unless you've seen them stain grass!

Another possible explanation is soil, maybe?

Although I might not be a typical case, maybe my perspective can shed light on this issue:

I live in SC now on my 5th year and ever since I came, starting an orchard has been high on my priority list, but I keep running into obstacles, both literally and figuratively. My soil is very rocky clay with very little good top soil.

I'm a foodie, cooking most my family's food from scratch, for health reasons striving for 50% of my food intake to be from fresh fruits and vegetables, I deplore the taste of most supermarket produce, I'm not a novice gardener, my veggie patch is the envy of all my friends, I have plenty of space, and the fact that my otherwise well-stocked local nurseries don't have much interesting choice in fruits isn't a deterrant for me as I don't mind ordering online.
Every year I tell myself that this year I'll really get it going, but one year it's an issue of pulling a water line to the location. Then I need to get the area cleared, and I discover such bad soil and roots of invasive weeds everywhere.
Then I get to the point of almost ordering, and while researching varieties get daunted by the challenges of a hot southern climate.
Then there's the disease resistancy issues and spraying demands. I'm truly happy gardenweb exists for being able to get this kind of information, but sometimes there's too much information available which can be paralyzing like in my case. I read about professional orchard growers and their spraying schedules and wonder if I'm getting myself into something that is beyond what I'm willing to spend time and effort on. Also, since my veggies are all organic, would spraying nearby fruit have an effect? One of the reasons I want to grow my own is to avoid pesticides and chemical fertilizers in the first place. When I was a child, my parents had so many ancient fruit trees and shrubs in the yard, but we never did much other than harvest the fruits, and if the crop was bad one year, oh well.

Anyway, I've solved the water, the clearing, the variety selection, learned about pest management (a little), and am almost ready to order plants, but I keep coming back to my bad soil. For veggies it's not an issue, because since I can barely dig a hole in the ground, at least I can build fluffy raised beds with lots of compost. So would I have to limit my orchard to dwarf trees in pots?

" So would I have to limit my orchard to dwarf trees in pots?"

I think you have already answered this question.

"I can barely dig a hole in the ground, at least I can build fluffy raised beds with lots of compost."

If you are on a slop. I would do berms and swales on contour.

My $0.02

Eric

Rocky clay soil is pretty rare in SC. Sorry about your bad luck. Most of what we call clay here (the "red clay" soils of the piedmont) is not true clay though and is more easily used horticulturally than a true clay would be. Digging the hole might be hard in such soil but I'd bet trees would grow in it just fine.

Soils in the SE US are generally low fertility (leached by a rainy climate) and some are quite droughty, especially the sandhills region, but overall soils are not extremely limiting assuming water for irrigation is available. Sand soils of the areally dominant coastal plain also facilitate nematode problems though, which limit figs for instance.

Nine-tenths of this state though could, without a drop of spray and even without much irrigation except in drought, grow muscadine grapes, blueberries, and Japanese persimmons, and correct selections of pecans, blackberries, and a few tougher types of pears. Coastal areas could grow the right cold-hardy citrus without protection too.

Here's my opinion based on what I have seen so far...

I don't think it is "Discouraged" as much as just "Not their cup of tea!"

In South Carolina.. life is different compared to "Up North" -- Most folks live outside town rather than In town... so your usual "Town" person who never had any desire to grow anything lives out in the "Country" too... If they lived in Ohio -- they would be in the suburbs of Toledo or Cleveland.... Not way out in the corn fields...

You gotta find the actual "Country people".... These people tend to be very independent, and also quiet about what they do... They never show up at the "Master Gardener" meetings... You will find them at the local Feed and Seed stores, though...

They are construction workers and textile workers and QC technicians and Maintenance men and seamstresses... and occasionally (But not usually) nuts like me...

These people are the ones who keep fruit trees and nut trees and vegetable gardens and their own animals... They are all over the place... you just gotta hunt them out!

Drive around on a Saturday afternoon and look for peach, apple, and pecan trees in the yard... Go knock on a few doors and talk with the folks... I bet they would love to talk about their trees...

Also.. almost every town has a weekly "Farmer's market" in town somewhere 1 or 2 mornings a week (Frequently Wednesday and Saturday mornings)... This is where you find the guy who has 10 Red Haven peaches in his yard and is trying to sell a bunch of exquisitely perfectly tree ripe peaches that will knock your socks off...

Also.. Check out the local Clemson Extension service.. They can point you in the right direction.

Remember.. This is South Carolina... You are looking for "Country people"... Not "City" gardeners...

Thanks

John

I wish I could be so optimistic. I have driven and ridden scores of thousands of miles in SC's countryside for nearly a third-century and all the while with more than a casual interest in fruiting plants. This was all over the state with only a few exceptions. Added to the rural through-roads and side roads, of the past two years I have driven an intensive few thousand miles on small country roads and dirt roads. I also deal with rural people not rarely (regarding unrelated problems) and I talk to county agents or staff in several counties or regions.

I see some muscadines and figs, some scattered pears, occasional blueberries and plums, and the rare apple (probably far more common in the mountains and higher piedmont). Pecans are pretty plentiful though, and very occasionally a chestnut is seen. I probably wouldn't notice scattered blackberries, but would see a row. I might miss a small plot of strawberries. Big rural yards often have their fruit bushes and trees in the wide front or side expanses where it is possible for me to see them. City people are more backyard oriented. Commercially I see peaches, pecans, muscadines, apples (upstate only),strawberries, blueberries, pecans, and even one chestnut grove and one kiwi vineyard. The evidence that these can be grown here is there for all to see.

A few people make jelly from the ornamental jelly plam (Butia), many banana plants are grown for ornamentals but few for fruit, loquat fruit from the common ornamentals are eaten by some, as are ginkgo nuts. I could hardly miss Japanese persimmons when fruiting in the fall but these are so rarely seen I off hand can't remember a one but my own. And what could be easier and more trouble-free to grow? I have seen fruiting cold hardy citrus, but very few. They may however be far more common near the coast.

I just don't see the interest directly. The only counter-argument that is starkly obvious is that thousands of fruit plants are sold each year by the various nurseries and some of them actually are appropriate and have a reasonable chance to live (muscadines, rabbiteye blueberries, figs, a few of the pear selections, a few plums, pecans including rarely a good selection, and blackberries). Most others are doomed. Doomed peaches probably kill a lot of potential later interest.

Here is another thought... that is probably more likely to be the truth....

70 years ago -- 50-70% of a family's income went to Food... Now, the number is 5-10%... If you want a jar of Applesauce or Peach nectar -- you just go buy it...

Why go the trouble of growing food if you can buy so easily, cheaply, and locally? We have a local Farmer's market in town 2-days a week summer thru fall + 3-4 really good local fruit/produce stands + orchards. I can go pick a 1/4 bushel of peaches every week between July and September and get wonderful, tree ripe peaches 15 miles from my house...

Then.. All that work growing your own doesn't guarantee "exceptional" peaches -- How do we know that the "Elberta" and "Belle of Georgia" peach trees sold out in front of *Every* supermarket and garden center are true to name? They may well just be some sort of mediocre quality free stone peaches.... or just "Poor" quality, true to name bud grafts. You probably have to grow out 20-50 to really find *One* that is truly great...

The last thing is that many folks just don't have the inclination to do anything beyond "Benign Neglect".. South Carolina's climate is just not well suited towards this sort of attitude with Prunus...

BUT... I see things changing... I think people are taking an interest... probably because of the declining and terrible quality of fruit in Supermarkets... Supermarket peaches are watery, saw-dusty tasting Chemically ripened baseballs... and it seems to get worse and worse each year!

Blueberries, Blackberries, Raspberries and Muscadines are being sold in abundance this year at Nurseries... compared to none 5-years ago.... This is a great place for a Neophyte to start.... rather than starting out with the more high maintenance Peaches, Apples or Cherries...

Thanks

John

John wrote:

"70 years ago -- 50-70% of a family's income went to Food... Now, the number is 5-10%... If you want a jar of Applesauce or Peach nectar -- you just go buy it... Why go the trouble of growing food if you can buy so easily, cheaply, and locally?"

I agree John. As beneficial as the green revolution and industrial agriculture have been to reduce scarcity and food prices, a casualty has been the mindset that the food budget should be cheaper still. I'm amazed people buy plants at the big box stores when they know the plants are likely mislabeled amd may fail in their locale. Still they buy them because they can save a few bucks, in the meantime spending hundreds of dollars on cell phone/cable plans, or the latest computer/iphone equip. Even the popular radio personna, Dave Ramsey (who generally talks sense) reinforces this thinking: beans and rice, rice and beans, as if the food bill is the first thing to cut.

I hate to say it, but I really think "Home garden" fruit tree selection really needs to head in a different direction.... Most home owners really have no desire to care for Fussy "Orchard" trees...

They know nothing about Varieties or Rootstock... you could sell them an Apricot or even a Loquat and they wouldn't know that it wasn't a peach... even when it fruited.... The leaves are green and the fruit is orangey and fuzzy and tastes good.... Mmmmm Peach!

I am coming to the conclusion that Varieties should be selected for Home growing, just like they are selected for Orchard growing...

1st and foremost, they need to handle massive quantities of Benign Neglect....

1. Immensely hardy plants.. Super disease and insect resistance should trump all else...
2. Don't care about low yields -- 5-10 peaches/year is honestly good enough for most folks.
3. Must taste pretty good, size doesn't matter too much, but Color is very important -- Need the most rugged and hardy plant in existence... Small fruit is OK, so long as it is healthy... BUT.. The home owner needs to easily determine when it is ripe...

This thinking leads you toward ancient "Land Race" varieties -- your semi-wild varieties... and AWAY from "New" Orchard varieties... which are *Extremely* fussy when it comes to care requirements...

Think for a minute... What is your average Home Owner going to do with 300 lbs of Peaches on 1 well cultivated Orchard tree? Their kids are going to be throwing peaches in big peach fights... Wasps and bees everywhere eating rotten peaches on the ground... Disease problems, Etc...

Yep, unless someone is pretty interested in growing food, easiest care is the best.

In re-reading my post, it comes across more severe than I intended. Nothing wrong with people going for cheap plants at big box stores while driving new cars. It's just choices, or matters of personal preference. Nothing wrong with that.

Funny, but the original question was why people are more discouraged about growing fruit in SC than elsewhere not the general declining interest in fruit growing.

From what I can see in my business and from the number of new nurseries supplying home growers, the interest in growing home grown fruit in the US as a whole is on the rise.

A few perspectives:

I grew up in Charlotte, and between family and neighbors, I knew plenty of folks with apple, pecan, walnut, mulberry, and pear trees in (various) yards. It was pretty un-thought about. My grandmother planted a one-acre garden every summer (this would be 1970s/80s), and even in the city, growing things was just something lots of people did.

I now live in the Chapel Hill area, and all of my growing is in containers, as I am in an apartment. Still, I am growing lots of things, from dwarf citrus to various tomato relatives, and occasional melons/squash/gourds and herbs outside.

There is a big and growing interest in permaculture in this area. I know many people who are researching heirloom veggies and herbs, and a few people (the ones who are owners rather than renters) are planting fruit trees as well: all of the usual suspects, plus things like pawpaws, maypops (which need to be controlled and looked after), muscadines and jujubes all do well here.

Even as a renter, I enjoy growing things, and the learning-via-doing aspect is also important to me...

Interesting discussion. I am a new fruit grower - I haven't done it in the past because I just didn't think about it. I've always had a veggie garden. When I thought about fruit I thought about the huge peach tree and cherry tree we had in our yard growing up (of course I was a kid, so huge is relevant). ;) So as an adult I was thinking that trees had to be huge. I only recently discovered, via a talk someone gave at my organic gardening club, that there are dwarf varieties. I have a half-acre property and about 1/2 of it is sunny, wasn't sure I had enough room for fruit trees.

I'm trying plum and peach, but I'm a real novice - just bought two at Home Depot because they were dwarf and I read good things about the species online. It wasn't easy to find dwarf, although I did find standard and semi-dwarf. I am feeling intimidated because I read all this stuff about bugs/diseases and critters eating it.

I am single (although I'm on an adoption waiting list) and so to have some huge trees - what would I do with all of that fruit? Now that I'm going to have a child/children, I sort of feel like I could see it all being eaten.

Other issues: so much mixed info online - one person says don't grow this, another says something different.

I went to a seminar one time about nature and they said that studies have shown that people who don't grow up with exposure to nature have less interest in it, are less willing to spend time in it, or support environmental issues. I think it is the same for growing fruits and veggies. People who didn't grow up with their parents growing things don't know where to start or maybe don't understand the difference in taste between home grown and store bought.

I don't know about others.

But I get discouraged when animals eat all my food, they don't produce or they get diseased like my apple trees do.

To protect the fruit tree from animals and weeds cost lots more than the tree. I pay about $26 for a fruit tree. But the accessories cost near $45.

{{gwi:62258}}

Recently I have been expanding my land through neighbors

I asked 2 neighbors if they wanted some free fruit trees planted and we can split the fruit. One said yea. So was able to expand some 6 trees more. The other neighbor never replied to my letter. But one out of two is still good!

Will have just under 40 fruit trees with this neighbors additional trees as well as 8 fig trees grown in containers. As well as about 11 varieties of berries. We would like to get it up to 60 in-ground fruit trees if I had the space.

While this neighbor sharing is not the best option for growing food, it is a good plan B. Also possible with chickens and rabbits too!

And here is an option for you guys really low on land...

http://www.survivalplus.com/foods/A-GARDEN-IN-A-BASKET.htm

I started to learn about gardening in Feb of '08.

{{gwi:62259}}

My main interest in the garden is for food production. I like plants and flowers, but don't have the time, energy, space and finances to do it all. So I concentrate on food.

I am growing food because:

Food quality in the store is low.

Food being sold is unhealthy and devoid of nutrition.
Food costs are getting out of sight.

Food may be scare in the future as we become post carbon society.

Posted by ashleysf 9 SF SouthBay (My Page) on
Sat, Feb 13, 10 at 13:10
A good friend says that she would cut down any fruit tree in any house she ever bought - because, apparently they drop fruit everywhere in the yard and then there are rotting fruit and fruit flies everywhere! And she has hard-scaped her whole yard and planted evergreens on the border. And a lot of the people I know think this way. And they drive to Costco and come home with crates of fruit in their SUV - so cheap and healthy! She plants bulbs and annuals in containers all the time. And I shudder to think what would happen to my yard if I sold my home to someone like her.
No, the thinking of such people cannot be changed. Believe me, I have tried! You either like to do it or you don't. It cannot be taught.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, reminds me of this...

http://www.thelifefiles.com/2010/03/31/new-trend-alert-kitchenistas/

The old timers were people of next year, the modern day people are people of today.

I guess day a new owner of my house may cut down my fruit trees, but I am very happy with them as of now. Just wish I started a decade ago.