Who did the design plan? Was slope and drainage accounted for in the plan? Do you have a particularly difficult situation, i.e. no easy way to get water away from the house and out of the backyard? It sounds like you may have something more difficult than a normal pour. You could always contact a landscape architect or a very good landscape designer.

Thanks, marcinde, for your response--
We had a landscape designer draw up an initial plan. Slope and drainage issues are not detailed in the plan, however, we believe that these very important aspects can be addressed as they were with our previous patio make up. I don't believe that we have a particularly difficult situation...but then I'm not well versed in all aspects of this trade (yet.)

I understand that there's a mathematical/engineering type process (slope, grading, drainage) that needs to be in place, but I guess I assumed that concrete contractors did this piece themselves. The guy who came out this morning assured me that once I saw the stakes/strings in the ground mapped out. I would realized what's involved. OK...I KNOW there need to be stakes and strings measured out, I just assumed that HE would be the one doing this. ??? ...still learning, I guess

Visual aids (photos, plan) would be helpful...

What you're talking about is a common complaint, because of the lack of consistency in what a "designer" knows and/or does for you. A lot of designers give you a pretty picture, that may or may not need a lot of field adjustment. Others of us take several hours to measure a property and work the grades out to a quarter inch or better. I would have to assume that if your concrete guys are freaking out about this as much as it sounds like, your designer created something pretty funky without explaining how to make it work. You may need to have your designer meet with the proposed contractors at the very least; but realize that additional site meetings probably aren't within the scope of your original agreement.

Dave

Thanks for your thoughts...
In all fairness to everyone involved, our landscape designer had drawn up our initial plan a week before her husband unexpectedly passed away. While we knew that she could have worked with us further in this process, we offered her whatever time she needs to get through this time in her life.

With that, we are working on our own now to tackle this task. I suppose I'm wondering what most people do if they don't have any type of drawn up plan in place. Aren't there instances where one hires a concrete contractor with merely a verbal "walk through" of what is desired?? ...or do contractors always need detailed plans.

Chatting with friends today, I realize there ARE others who have hired someone to complete patio/concrete jobs with no plan at all. (..and have been happy with the results.) So now, at least, I have another contact or two to call.

I'm reading up on how to post photos. Boy do I feel like a novice at everything today!!:-)

There is no standard knowledge set for either a "landscape designer"or a "concrete guy".

The assumption is that your designer actually knows what the existing grades are and what the proposed grades should be. The truth is that the designer may or may not have this depth of information. The scope of work may be for a layout plan with no added provision for grading or construction details. These things take some knowledge, time, effort, and take on higher degrees of responsibility. Sometimes the design budget is not big enough to get those things even from those with the skill sets. Other times the designer does not have the ability to deliver that level of service. No knock on the designer for limited skills - it is a diverse field and each and everyone of us have varying degrees of limitations. Its only bad when one charges for skills he does not deliver.

Concrete guys are much the same. Some only know how to pour it it and float it. Others can lay a job out, form it up with proper pitch, and make a great job out of a very basic conceptual landscape plan drawn by a homeowner.

Let's not leave the homeowner out of it either. You have to be aware that you can't get more than what you are willing to pay for. You can't assume greater results from lesser prepared people (under trained, under experienced, under priced).

On one of these forums a poster once used the fly fishing term which is very appropriate. That is "match the hatch" which simply means to figure out what bugs the fish are eating and then present the appropriate fly in the most appropriate way.

It is unnecessary to have a plan over designed just as it is foolish to have it under designed. If you have a skilled concrete guy that can do great things with a limited set of plans there is no great benefit in paying for a designer to measure elevations, calculate proposed grades, and supply multiple construction details and specifications.

If you have good concrete finishers who need better plans to follow or supervision, it makes sense to pay more for a higher level designer and maybe a project manager.

Each and every one of these designers, contractors, and consumers are needed in the market place!

To sum it up, there are great people out there. Sometimes they are not easy to find or are so busy that they command a good deal of money. Sometimes people don't understand that smaller paying jobs often have a lot of liability and they displace higher paying jobs rather than being additional profit. You just can't assume that all landscape designers have the same skill sets. You can't assume that all concrete guys have the same skill sets. You can't assume that each consumer will have the same level of commitment to the design or the construction as the next consumer or last consumer.

Match the hatch and match the expectations to the commitment that you put into it. Sometimes that means financial commitment.

In your original post, you also mentioned that you had other concrete companies out- same result?

There are plenty of instances where contractors can come in and do things without plans, or with rudimentary thumbnail sketches agreed upon with the client. But these tend to be pretty straightforward jobs, which makes me suspect you have a complicating factor in all this. Which- your picture doesn't come up for me, so I can't say yet. Is this patio in an area where you've had water issues? What's the shape look like?

Yay!! I figured out how to post pics. Here's our tricky "patio" to be.
What do you think??

{{gwi:52817}}

{{gwi:52819}}

BTW...concrete work is phase one in backyard re-do -- gate/divider structure will be coming out soon.

Please let me know if additional photos would help determine our needs.

Sure appreciate your input!!

Keep calling local people to look at your site. If someone could look at these photos and give you an answer, you still need to get a real person at your site. There really is no benefit to you from this excercise other than to learn that there is no benefit.

I can see the issue- it looks like you're extremely flat back there (maybe even pitched back to the house somewhat?), with no easy way to get water away from the house and out of the yard. Find someone local who is knowledgeable enough that can come out, shoot some grades, and figure it out. It's funny- a flat lot may seem easier to deal with, but even in the desert you have to know how to keep water away from the structure.

Best,

Dave

After seeing the photos (and trying to read between the lines), I think you are really missing the point. As a few of the other posters have noted, something about this project smelled fishy.

When I read things like: "...have had a few guys take a look at the plan without much luck." and "someone with many years experience (YIKES !!!) told me that he would need to spend hours figuring out the slope and drain elements for our patio to work...and he doesn't really do that." red flags begin to flap in the wind. Particularly with the surrounding brick walls, water has no place to go --- and I strongly suspicion that problem is the root cause of your demolition.

What all of these "concrete guys" seem to know but are being too polite to tell you is that you have a mess on your hands and they want no part of the pending liability. They know that they would be building a concrete pond with water probably flowing into your house or at minimum, creating a strong potential for eventual structural damage.

Water problems in this area ... Isn't that the real reason behind wanting a patio here in the first place? Your plan has serious problems --- it is time you begin to take them seriously.

IronBelly

Here is a link that might be useful: Understanding Water

Just throwing something out there...........have you considered extending the grass and having a smaller flagstone, or maybe stamped, patio?

Repetitively pointing out problems is one thing - offering possible solutions is another.

A poured concrete patio is impermeable to water and the runoff has to go somewhere. If grading/drainage is an issue (and on the surface - no pun intended - it appears to be), then perhaps a more water permeable type of patio is in order. Bricks, concrete pavers, or natural flagstones carefully set on a well-prepared base offer similar function and aesthetics, yet provide for adequate drainage. Spacing the material and interplanting with a groundcover (or lawn) would provide for even greater water absorbtion. A simple low, floating wooden deck would achieve the same result.

Amen, Gardengal.

The problem remains that the OP needs a local person on site to figure it out. But whom?

A lot of people can do it. The only ones that you are guaranteed a result from are civil engineers (and LAs in some states).

It is budget vs. liability vs. design professional.

Thanks for your time, everyone. Again, my initial question regarded what these professionals (concrete guys) were capable of doing. As this is not my area of expertise, I was surprised when yesterday's guy told me that he wasn't the one who would determine the grade and drainage issues.

Our old patio (large concrete pavers divided by 2x4's--you can almost see their outline) worked beautifully as far as drainage was concerned. Hard to see, but we also had planting areas along the block wall. (We plan to enlarge this concept to enable even more absorption.) As we've never had drainage issues, I didn't realize they would now become such a huge issue. (...again, not my area of expertise)

Having chatted with my husband a lot this morning, I'm realizing that as he understands these issues (creating a French Drain as just one example of dealing this this) better than I do, I will make sure that he is home when I arrange future contractor visits. ...just wish I didn't need to do this.

Trust me, we realize the work that may be involved and are willing to pay the right person to do this job. (Cost factors have never been discussed as we've yet to get an estimate.) The guy yesterday just threw me when he commented that he didn't deal with the slope and drainage pieces. So I wondered if this was standard in the concrete field.

I certainly appreciate the suggestions and ideas given here and will rethink this part of our project to incorporate even more permeable features.

Detective inkognito here. Have a look at the second picture, there you will see a gray concrete paver standing on end. See it, right in the middle? Are we being lead up the garden path in assuming that "a concrete guy" (sounds like a hard case to me) does poured concrete only or does he install these concrete pavers too. If so does this make the problem more understandable and the answer to the question different?

inkognito...
sorry -- no clue there-- that paver was something we used to prop up something else. Just an old remnant found on our property when we bought the home 20 years ago -- never used. --but you get points for being observant:-)

Looking at the landscape and the plantings(Chinese Weeping Elm tree), it would appear that you are in California. So we can assume that occasional torrential downpours are not common where you live. The extreme flatness of the site and the evident porous nature of the old concrete patio with redwood 2 x 4 dividers were probably sufficient to allow for drainage even without a good swale to the street. So, if your new patio layout is using concrete pavers over a sand base, or brick, or has joints that will allow for some permeability, you may in fact be a real simple job to install, and it would just be a matter of sloping away from the house at minimum 1.5% slope and meeting existing grades wherever you meet existing paving to remain.

I would assume that any concrete contractors who looked at this would have told you much the same, or expressed some concerns about how the drainage would be handled with such a flat site and a masonary wall that would also contain water onsite without allowing runoff. It may be possible to design a french drain that needn't connect to the street, but instead could drain to a larger sump, but it would be necessary to know whether your roof dumps water into this back yard as well, or whether that is already taken to the street. It would also help to know your soil type, and whether you have fast or slow drainage with standing water. The main issue looks to be drainage and permeability, not any difficulty in executing a concrete patio in such a flat backyard. There are also newer concrete mixes especially formulated for better permeability and to allow recharging the water table without run-off, but they are more expensive than a standard pour. As mentioned previously, it may also simply be easier to do concrete pavers butted tight over a sand base, and this would likely not require any addtional drainage.

Any concrete contractor that is licensed and comes with referrals should have been able to articulate the parameters of your patio pour, and helped you determine what your project would require. Didn't any of them mention potential lack of drainage due to the flatness, and then question you as to how you intended it to drain?

You too, bahia, are very observant...and correct. We live in CA -- Bay Area, in fact (neighbors??) so, yes, you are correct. While water should always be a concern, it isn't something we deal with on a daily basis. (Although we just sat through a miserable Cal vs. USC football game where it rained all evening!!)

I do know about the minimum slope away from the house, and did have this in place with our previous patio. Downspouts do not pour into this section our our yard.

Concrete guys #1 and #2 didn't seem worried about slope and drainage issues -- yes, we did talk about possible options. I THINK they were both simply very busy with all of the choices of jobs available in our market to take us on as well. Guy #3, yesterday, (licensed and experienced, but found from the phone book - not referral) did discuss possible drainage concerns he had, but didn't go further to look for available solutions. (...again, wish DH had been here) He also seemed thrown because our backyard doesn't have easy accessibility for his bobcat. We're more than willing/able to haul dirt, etc. ourselves if need be.

Since Guys #1 and 2 didn't question why we didn't have a more detailed plan on paper, I wondered if the reaction from Guy #3 was standard and would cause us to hire someone to add calculations to our design.

So, I agree, bahia. I THINK while we have SOME issues...we're not that tricky. (at least our old patio -- while 50 years old and worn out -- never caused us such problems) This conversation definitely has made me more aware of how to work permeable features into our patio.
THANKS!! again everyone --

Sounds like you are on the right track, and good luck finding a contractor who can fit you in. Given that there appears to be minimal grading or haul away of materials for a new concrete pour, I wouldn't think a bobcat will be necessary, and the pour could be pumped back into the yard rather than wheel-barrowed in. The fact that you don't have additional roof drainage onto this area is reassuring, and it could well be that your existing conditions can well handle rainfall in our normal amounts.

side note- since a few people have suggested pavers as a way to increase permeable paving, be sure to communicate this intent to the contractor if you opt to go that route. Standard practice is now to use polymeric sand to lock in the joints, so many paver patios are no more pervious than a concrete slab. Just something to be aware of.