What is reasonable to expect?

I would say 1/8 inch, 1/4 max. Maybe you should have done it yourself, it ain't that hard.

thanks so much for the quick feedback! wow, 1/8 inch, that's more precise than I'd thought.

anybody have any idea what is the best way to fix something like this? build new forms around it to the correct dimensions, or do they have to break it apart & start over?

Ask another masonry company, or two, to give you an estimate, and they'll tell you what the approach should be. The right answer may be dependent on climate; what would work in zone 8 might not work for you.

That is, if you're not set up for DIY concrete, which even the most intrepid of us may not be!

You may also have a fix-it columnist in your local paper or a local media home-improvement show where you can send in a question.

KarinL

Bad answer KarinL go and stand in the corner. All the steps should be the same no matter where on the planet the are, if there is a landing, the go in there is obviously different but the rise should be the same. Not acceptable beanie, I hope you didn't pay yet. They need to break it up and do it properly at their expense, what exactly is the supervisor supervising BTW?

I think counties will let you get away with as much as 3/8" difference between risers, no more. The contractor is clearly an idiot.

There's really no way to fix what's there; new concrete atop old will always have a cold joint, which is a point of failure. If it were my yard, or one of my clients, it'd come out.

Dave

Have these guys done concrete steps or any steps for that matter. It wouldn't pass an inspection. It needs to be taken out and re-done. Hopefully they will fix it, if they know how. Good luck.

Ink, I was trying to answer the "whether to patch or remove and redo" question, which Dave answered much better, but he hadn't come along yet when I read the thread. The thread needed to be bumped anyway so that others would see the second question.

KarinL

My first answer may have been confusing. What I should have said was that risers should not deviate from the plan more than 1/8 inch, 1/4 max.

It also matters whether the difference occurs at adjoining steps. For example, a group of 10 steps that at one end have risers of 7.5 inches that slowly change to 6.5 inches at the other end are not something that needs to be taken out.

Whether steps that are wrong can be fixed is more complicated. I would not allow an over-lay where any of the new concrete was less than 2 inches. Also raising the grade at either end can cause drainage problems for any tie-ins with other hardscape or building foundation. If the top step can be removed and the steps can be shifted forward about 14 inches, then a new pour can be made at the original grade.

Another fix might be to cover the steps with a veneer of stone. Use thicker stone on the treads below the tall risers and thin stone at the top to make the end result equal risers.

It is the contractors job to fix these steps. But a strong demand to remove them without considering any fix he may propose will often push you toward a lawsuit.

Beanie, can you tell us what resolution was reached?

I can't get Mr. & Mrs. Prospective Buyer out of my head. Could be that you never intend resale of this home, but this pesky couple won't leave me alone. Actually, they are quite reasonable people, but they've just been down those stairs. Mrs. B. tripped and almost fell. Mr. B. just muttered something about the cost of replacing those d--- stairs needing to come off the purchase price. I think he meant it!

So, can you tell us what happened? Then maybe this mythical twosome will quit gatecrashing my brainwave patterns.

Wellspring

Hi there, I'm a tile contractor in CA and I agree with the no more than 1/8" difference. Stairs need to be precise for safety reasons. If you go to your bldg. department, you can get the info on the tread/riser ratio for what actually meets code. If a permit was pulled for that job, it will not pass an inspection if the measurements are off. Have you checked the tread measurements too? If they're off on the risers, they probably haven't got the treads done right either. I'd make them redo the entire project. Cathy

Although this may not be rocket science, more people have been injured negotiating badly built stairs/steps than have been lost in orbit. The ideal relationship between tread and riser is based on the dimensions of the human body but more importantly the brain assumes that all steps in a particular set are the same. It is not only blind people that make this computation either. A local shop had only two steps, two steps of different dimensions, as a kid I would watch people trip or dive depending on which direction they were going. The owners painted a white edge and put up a 'watch the step' sign, it made no difference.

Thanks so much for the input. Means I'm not crazy. Yes, I called the contractor & he agreed to redo the steps. They knew very well they weren't right. He will demo them & start over. When I'd hired them, I was very clear that the priority was safety, as my elderly mother was to be using them to access her in-law suite part of the house. They are not attached to the house, but part of the yard, at the end of a stone paver patio going down to lawn (inset with flagstone walk in the grass), replacing a set of wooden slat steps, so I didn't think a permit was necessary (not electrical, plumbing, structure), so no inspection. But when I called I told him my mother had already stumbled on them (true).

I'm relieved they will redo them, but I'm worried they're just going to do them badly again, and wishing I'd done it myself.

here's a picture, link to a before picture.
{{gwi:51006}}garden stairs

The risers were jarringly irregular: 5.25", 4.5", 5.25", 7.5", 6.5", and 7", the doozy being the >2inch drop in the middle.

He said he would redo them all at 7.5", different # of steps, as if he were limited in the riser size. I originally want to follow the slope of previous stairs, which would have meant a shallower rise, more appropriate for a garden stair. 7.5 seems steep to me, and means a shorter run. I don't understand why he can't measure the rise & run & build a form to distribute them evenly over the same span? Is it really that tricky to build to size? Are there some standard forms out there or do they just not know what they're doing? If he does it with 7.5 risers, same total height, won't he need different railings, with a different angle?

I'm very close to just asking him to demo, and firing them for this job (they also put in a mortored flagstone walk to our front door, which they did a good job on). If I did that, what would be a fair settlement for the work they did do? I'd pay them in full for the walk, and 20% of the stairs job? (they demo'd the previous stairs & hauled the debris). Would they be upset, or relieved to be off a job that's been problematic? 50% and call it a loss? I'm anticipating the cost on the stairs is ~3k (they didn't itemize it separately from the front walk job).

sorry to ramble!

How was the job done, other than the riser size? Did they finish the steps properly? etc.

If everything else was OK, I'd get them to take the old steps out, and put in the forms for the new ones. Then with the supervisor, measure all the forms. Let the supervisor know that you want to do this before any concrete is added. Any that don't meet the 1/8" requirement, need to be redone. If the forms are right, the resulting steps will likely be OK, assuming they are bringing in the concrete and not mixing it themselves.

Companies can have careless people working for them and mistakes happen. The fact that the walkway was well made, and they are willing to fix the mistake shows they can probably do the job. Besides, no way to know the next contractor will not also do a poor job.

Way more problems here than just risers. The riser to tread ratio isn't even close. And the overall design is very bad. Makes me think the contractor picked your brain as to what you expected and then tried to build it, rather than tell you what a good design would be.

If I read the situation right, you have about a 35-40 inch drop over somewhere near a 10 ft span. There should be 2-3 steps at the top, 2-3 steps at the bottom, and a landing in the middle. The path angle then occurs on the landing and all steps then have standard tread widths.

The number of steps should be selected to make equal risers between 6.5 to 7.25 inch. All forming should be checked to ensure that everything drains. Steps should pitch forward 1/8 to 3/16 inch. Slope of the landing can vary from 3/16 to 3/8 inch per lf of path. Drainage is important! In winter, ice slicks will form on all non-draining surfaces.

Using standard steps will not match the natural land slope and so I would suggest you consider adding short side walls to the step design.

If you have a lot of ice and snow, you might want to add a way to install a heating element in the stairs.

I did a lot of reading before we had some steps put in. I learned the things that have been said here, and also that the deeper the step, the shorter the rise --something like (can't remember exactly - there's a formula) an 18" deep step calls for a 5" rise. (Probably NOT those EXACT numbers.) This was to facilitate a normal person's natural forward/upward motion at the most best levels for balance.

Pls8xx, do you agree? If so, would Beanie need shallower rises for the wide steps?

Marcia

At the mostest bestus level - good grief.

That should be "at the best level."

I always through that 2x the rise plus the tread should equal between 25" to 27". 6" rise should have a tread that is at least 15".

Yes there is a formula, though there may be some slight difference in what is quoted. Most often I see the one that says twice the riser plus the tread width should be 25 to 28 inches, with a preference for the lower.

But just because the ratio meets the formula does not make steps good in a garden setting. I have a step ladder with a 11.5 inch riser and step set-back of 3.5 inches. 11.5+11.5+3.5=26.5 Nice for a ladder but not for steps in a garden.

Generally, I like a slightly lower formula number with lower risers and use the 26 to 28 totals only for tall risers.

For myself, I like a tread width between 11 and 12 inches. A 11 inch tread can have a maximum 7.5 riser and still not go beyond a formula total of 25. A 12 tread can have a minimum 6 inch riser and not go below a formula total of 24.

This is the range for steps that is most commonly encountered, a standard of habit, which makes them comfortable and safe.