Mycorrhizae inoculant has been used in the container nursery industry for years.

"They normalized about midway up as they grew in the permanent containers. I can only attribute such large leaves to the myco application."

What a perfect example of post hoc fallacy in reasoning. You commit this fallacy when you concluded that one event causes another simply because the proposed cause occurred before the proposed effect. More formally, the fallacy involves concluding that A causes or caused B because A occurs before B and there is not sufficient evidence to actually warrant such a claim. There are many other possible causes.

"I assume that if I mixed the myco throughout the container instead of just putting on the top of transplant hole that the top leaves would have gotten larger too."

I'm sorry, but this "assumption" simply ignores common cause(s) and is scientifically unsupportable.

Al

I used myco on toms and peppers. Can't ell if it did any good with toms or not but the effect on peppers was quite notable.

I am going to stop you here and ask you to do something for me (yourself really). Go pull up one of those container pepper plants and look at the roots. Do you see any mychorrizal fungi on them? You will recognize them because they will have an appearance distinct from the roots. They will be 'extensions'. If they are present then the fungi 'took' and the improved growth might be attributable to that, but if no fungi are present (and I doubt there will be) then the growth is attributable to something else.

Perhaps the following will help you to understand this subject. Michorrizae fungus is developed naturally by Mother Nature each fall by the cold composting of fallen leaves on the ground. The near the surface feeder roots of plants/trees/shrubs search out MF which encourages healthy growth. This means that MF should be added (or stirred gently into mulch) on the soil surface of a pot after all has been planted.

The savy gardener knows that each fall when cleaning out a garden bed and shredding all that spent foliage then placing it back on the bed as mulch encourages the cold composting necessary for MF to develop and meet the needs of plants growing in that bed.

Green grass, you should try the following to grow your own MF specific to green peppers. Place several layers of newspaper under a shrub in an out-of-the-way spot. I like to build a quick wooden frame around the newspaper. Cover this with 4" inches of compost or good top soil. Remove the leaves off your green peppers when you pull them. Give these a buzz in a food processor with a bit of water added. Mix this slurry into the soil on the newspaper. Next year after planting the peppers, gently add some of the newspaper soil to pot surface. Keep this little MF 'farm' going year after year. You can add other leaves such as shredded carrot tops, grape leaves, etc. to the mix to cold compost and use it on other pots, also. Don't let the pile get any higher than about 7". Add a bit of compost and shredded plant leaves as needed. Keep weeded and watered during dry periods.

I'm not too sure that someone who isn't used to examining the root hair systems of plants would be able to indentify mycorrhizae. ENDOmycorrhizae colonize the interior regions of the cell and might be more difficult to recognize. Endomycorrhizae species are commonly associated with herbaceous plants such as annuals and perennials (like peppers). Ectomychorrizae, located on the outside of the roots, form a very noticable mycelium/hyphae sheath around the root hair cells.

Rhizo, thanks for pointing out the differeces btwn endo and ecto as endo is definitely the one to pop the pepper plant.

OK tapla so I showed my true colors and they are not those of science but the green does resemble a pepper plant. When I see pepper leaves that are much larger than I have ever seen before then I think it's possible and even probable to conclude that endo had something to do with it. If you want something a little more scientific then I suggest that you follow the link below to the second post of jbest and take a look at his controlled esperiment. It is that post that led me to give the endo a try and I'm glad that I did.

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/organic/msg0315010730470.html?19

GG - I can tell you want very badly to believe that your inoculating with mycorrhizae was the only possible factor at play in the increased leaf size of your plants, and of course you're free to believe what you wish, but the fact is that you jumped to a very hasty conclusion. Your fertilizer regimen and/or lighting conditions, as well as a combination of other cultural elements/conditions are far more likely to be the reason for the increased leaf size. I didn't say it's not possible - only that the reasoning behind your 'conclusion' is flawed.

The reason for my mentioning this is to prevent the rush by others to buy various inoculations with the idea in mind they are likely to be beneficial in containers. They CAN BE, but it's more likely they won't be. After selecting or being lucky enough to stumble on to an appropriate fungi, having some control over cultural conditions like soil temperatures, moisture levels/aeration, fertility levels, even pH, are going to be very important to the effectiveness of soil inoculants.

Al

I'm not too sure that someone who isn't used to examining the root hair systems of plants would be able to indentify mycorrhizae. ENDOmycorrhizae colonize the interior regions of the cell and might be more difficult to recognize.

Well, I am certainly not the fungi expert, but it is my understanding that whether the fungi penetrates or encapsulates the root, it still grows beyond the root into the soil and this is where it is most easily identified as a distinct structure from the root.

Regardless I wanted to offer the reasons I regard fungal inoculants as extremely unlikely to take in a container. Primarily it is the lack of stability in the relevant cultural conditions.

My own use of fungal inoculants has included products from Fungi Perfecti and Root Shield. I have also attempted to spread a naturally occurring mycorrhizal fungi from one bed to another without success (I just moved some soil). I have used them with seedlings while still under lights as well as soil drenched after planting into the ground as well as containers. I have used them in raised beds with peppers and tomatos, in ornamental beds, with blueberries in containers etc. Some of the ground beds were mulched with wood chips, others with a living mulch (low growing sedums), others no mulch. All of the soils(ground ones) were highly organic having generous amounts of home made compost added annually.

In absolutely no case have I ever observed the fungi establishing.

Conversely there is one garden bed I have seen mycorrhizal fungi establish. It is a bed on the north side of my home that gets almost no direct sun and is heavily mulched. It is home to an evergreen shrub and in the summer a bed of impatiens. The kicker is I never inoculated this bed. The fungi have attached to the roots of the shrub.

I have another bed on the north side of my home that gets a little sun. The soil is identical (I trucked it in), the wood used for the mulch is identical and it is home to the same evergreen shrub plus hostas. There has been no fungi establishment. I have attempted to get it to establish by moving some soil from bed a to bed b without success. I suspect, but do not know, that it is due to the bed getting more sun than the other and thus the cultural parameters are slightly less stable.

In conclusion while I am sure there are conditions under which one can get the fungi to establish via inoculations I wouldn't consider them at all guaranteed. This is for an earth based garden. In a container I would be really surprised if the majority of products out there would ever take.

Again, I am not the expert and perhaps there is a strain that is adaptable enough for containers, but I haven't heard of one.

I don't have a need to believe anything about gardening regardless of your scientific analysis. In prior years I grew 30 to 40 habs while this yr I grew *at least* 70 to 80 per plant. This is the first yr that I used myco so mere coincidence requires that I try it again next yr. By the way, I grew them in containers IAW strict organic principles which is also contrary to your scientific thinking. Jbest's picture from his experiment say it best, no pun intended.

Does this sound familiar? It might - I left it on another of your posts previous.

"When I post here, it's often not to change the mind of folks who are determined to do something in a particular way, and it's usually not for the benefit of experienced growers, who have the experience to decide for themselves what they will do, or don't want to do; but, there are hundreds of impressionable people reading these posts. When I think that the information in a particular post has the potential to detract from some one's growing experience, I'm going to offer an alternate view, which is what I've done, while being careful to be as scientific about its presentation as possible."

You cannot get from your point A to point B by employing logic. I've allowed it is a possibility, but my own sense of logic and what I know of container culture tells me it's improbable.

The conversation is becoming redundant (I'll take the blame), so to prevent it from yielding more heat than light, please have the last word if you care to.

Take good care.

Al

OK Al, I understand that getting to point B from A could defy logic. There are many on this bd who feel as you do that myco doesn't work in containers. However, even if that were true, jbest has shown a big time difference in myked tom plants started from seed to around 8 weeks. The stronger the transplant the better the end result regardless if grown in the ground or containers.

Green, perhaps next year you could check for the presence of myco and then you would know for sure.

It is indeed frustrating to do an experiment, see the expected results, but not be able to make any conclusive determination.

I tried ProTekt this year for the first time to see if it would help with foliage diseases. The good news is I had very little in the way of foliage diseases this year even on plants that normally get a bad case of powdery mildew during the season.

The bad news is it was a weird weather year which kept pests and disease to a minimum naturally.

So, I have to experiment at least another near before I can have any reasonable conclusions to draw.

And for the record I am not saying that myco can't work in containers, just that based upon my experience with it as well as some reading, it seems unlikely.

I can examine them this year as I still have 2 habs still growing or should I say existing. I have garaged them over the last few night as temps dipped to 26 d. I would be glad to look but I am one of those people who Rhizo says:

I'm not too sure that someone who isn't used to examining the root hair systems of plants would be able to indentify mycorrhizae. ENDOmycorrhizae colonize the interior regions of the cell and might be more difficult to recognize. Endomycorrhizae species are commonly associated with herbaceous plants such as annuals and perennials (like peppers). Ectomychorrizae, located on the outside of the roots, form a very noticable mycelium/hyphae sheath around the root hair cells.

I can post a picture of the root system if that will help. Let me know.

I experimented with MycoGrow this past season on tomato plants with inconclusive results. I have (yesterday) planted an experiment to try to sort out any potential benefits between MycoGrow, Actinovate, and nothing, as a control:

{{gwi:51699}}

In order to eliminate variables such as watering, soil composition, etc. I am using 3 identical EarthTainers placed in the same adjacent location:

{{gwi:51700}}

As we are entering a cool weather season, I have planted the 3 EarthTainers with Snow Peas (similar to these):

{{gwi:51701}}

So the 3 'Tainers from left to right: Actinovate, MycroGrow, and no additive in the third:

{{gwi:51702}}

Stay tuned for photo updates over the next 3 months.

Let the games begin!!

Raybo

Hey Raybo with plants that look as good as yours there should be no worries. I was told that best myco for toms and peppers is the endo granular mixed in soil and especially in contact with root ball.

I also have 2 'Tainers growing Maui Onions, and I am going to drench both with Actinovate tomorrow as a further experiment.

Raybo

Here are 4 pictures of roots that once supported a nice looking plant chock full of orange habs. The roots were in about 9 1/2 inces of soil and the hairs for the most part were torn off when shaking soil off. I have no idea how these roots compare to other habs so let me know.

{{gwi:51703}}

{{gwi:6624}}

{{gwi:51704}}

{{gwi:51706}}

Unfortunately I can't tell from the pics if you have myco or not, but the roots are very impressive regardless. Is that a first year plant or is it one that has been overwintered previously?

I can honestly say I have never seen roots like that on any pepper I have grown in containers or in the ground, but I treat them as annuals.

Thanks for your reply justaguy.

Here's some interesting background. I start my own seeds but habs didn't come up this yr so I asked a guy at the farmer's market to get me a pk. To my dismay the plants were little scrawny things about 2 inches tall and it was close to June already. I figured that since I was going to repot them that I could always bring them into the house to ripen in the fall if need be as habs are slow growers. As you you can guess the harvest exceeded my expectations. I would over winter it but I do not want to contend with possible aphid trouble when I start seeds next yr.

I haven't a scientific clue if mychorrizae work or not. Because a friend suggested it and I'm trying some new fertilizers this year (all self-watering containers, some covered EBs, some not), I tried Espoma's product - Biotone Starter Plus. I planted my seeds inside, then hardened and transplanted them outside in containers. At transplant, I scratched the BioTone starter into the soil-less mix in some containers, not all. I put 10 small (4 ") tomato plants in one EB to "hang" until I had all my containers ready; they were there for about 3-4 weeks. In one container, I also transplanted lettuce and used the starter stuff. In another container, I transplanted lettuce and didn't use the starter stuff.

When I went to move the tomatoes, I was surprised by two things: 1) the roots were massive for 10" tomato plant that had only been in this soil for 3-4 weeks. 2) the roots were different than I've noticed when transplanting tomato plants before - extremely white with lots of roots.

I then went and checked the roots on the two sets of lettuce. The ones in the container where I didn't use the BioTone had a smaller, less developed root structure and were rather clear instead of the bright white color of the other roots in the container where I'd used the starter stuff.

All plants were in identical soil-less mix and had both received the same fertilizer in the same way.

Now, will these roots mean anything over the long run? I don't know! But, there was a difference in them; that difference could simply be due to something else in the Starter Plus stuff, not the mychorrizae. I hadn't read this thread when I moved the plants, so hadn't a clue as to what I'd be looking for on the roots. Still am not completely sure...

So, take that for what it's worth to you. For me, it's just interesting for now. Maybe next time I'll do a better experiment. But, I will try it again to see what happens now that I now more about it.

I bought a meyer lemon grown by monrovia, the tag said they use myco innoculants as well as other beneficial fungi in the nursery soils.

I'd really like to keep it organic, I've thought about digging a hole for the container to keep the roots cool. It will spend every winter inside, so it needs to stay in the container.

Twelve different types of mycorrhizae are added to our soil mix to create an environment that dramatically increases the life of our plants.

Here is a link that might be useful: Monrovia soil story

Because of reading Jbests posts last winter I did purchase an innoculant and used it on all of my seedlings started indoors. I've also used it in the beds. I don't know if it's done any thing but my plants are much healthier and bigger than last year. But I've also switched to raised beds and learned alot in the last year. As well as making my own compost to fill the raised beds.

I plan on cutting plants off and leaving root systems for the most part. I do plan on over wintering a swt choc bell, so I can take pics when I dig it out of the garden.

This horse keeps getting flogged doesn't it? I use roots brand, with both endo and ecto. Ecto is mostly for larger shrubs and trees. I also am all organic as most here know. I would not use organics in a soil/less mix for longer than a season, but the resulting rootballs and old mix are great for tilling into your garden. With large enough containers, myco does work, but it is not cost effective. In a smaler container, 6 gallons or less, and a plant you plan to keep for longer than a season, Al's mix shines.

For those who are interested in using VAM (ecto mycorrhizae) in the garden, please know that none of the Brassicas benefit from mycorrhizal interactions of any kind. Other veggies do, though.

I use a myco mixture in my containers for woody plants, where the soil mix is largely bark.

rootdr, I am on my 4th season with same potting mix iaw organic principles and everything looks good.

I sprinkle myko under my transplant with excellent results without adding to entire container so it is somewhat cost effective for me.