I use the gritty mix
1 part uncomposted pine or fir bark (1/8-1/4")
1 part screened Turface (or NAPA floor-dry)
1 part crushed granite (grower grit or #2 cherrystone)
for all my woody plants, houseplants, succulents, and cacti.

Al

Ugh....... It was hard enough finding the fines, now I got to hunt down Turface. CAN'T YOU COME UP with easier to find ingredients! :-)

I do not even know where to go for granite (grower grit or #2 cherrystone) or Turface (or NAPA floor-dry).

The scavenger hunt is back on.

Al,

I will probably get a scolding over my question as I am sure someone asked this, I could not find the answer though. What is the difference between the fines and uncomposted pine or fir bark (1/8-1/4")? Aren't the fines the same size? I am using a soil conditioner now which is around the 1/8 category.

Arn't the griddy mix and 511 specs for pine pretty much the same thing? Pine fines? Could I use soil conditioner (pine based) in the gritty mix?

A local nursery sells pine bark in smaller chunks, but still inch or two long and there is allot of smaller pieces. I could probably sift it out, but would have to buy 4-5 bags.

Thanks.

Waaaaa! Crybaby. ;o) (teasing you)

The only thing I would scold you for is the fact that you don't tell anyone where you live in your user info. If DID, I (or we) might be able to zero in on a Turface source and maybe even make some suggestions on where to get the granite. You bad! ;o)

First, once you find the stuff you need, which you can do by phone, you don't have to worry about it. I promise that when you get used to using the gritty mix for your houseplants or woody stuff, you'll never want to go back to a peat soil, or likely even the 5:1:1 mix, so it's kind of worth it, if you're willing to go through the extra effort. (I could really lay an anthropomorphic guilt trip on you at this point, but I'm resisting mightily - maybe later, though.) ;o)

Here's the deal on the varied suggestions re. the bark component in the gritty mix vs 5:1:1. We are looking to maximize the longevity of the 5:1:1 mix, so it makes good sense to:

A) start with a product that is whole and intact, that is to say, not partially broken down by the composting process. Partially composted bark is better in the 5:1:1 mix because it is almost 75% of the soil and a partially composted product reduces N immobilization. In the gritty mic, the bark component is limited (or should be) to 1/3 or less of the total volume, so the concerns for N immobilization are greatly reduced, but even if they weren't, the benefit of added longevity would still outweigh any N immobilization issues and we'd still prefer an uncomposted product. We would simply have to fertilize a little more frequently or use a fertilizer with a higher N content.

B) Use particles from 1/8-1/4" inch in size. The reason is twofold. First, the relatively large size of the particles presents less surface area than the same volume of smaller particles, so they break down more slowly, and this of course, adds to the soil's longevity. The second part of the equation re. particle size is how it figures into water retention. When the size of particles in the media increase, the amount of perched water the soil holds decreases, an inverse relationship, until finally, at a particle size of just under 1/8", the PWT disappears entirely.

Turface holds a ton of water. Granite holds very little. Conifer bark is about half-way in between. If we keep the bark component at 1/3 of the soil, and vary the the %s of the other two parts while still keeping their combined presence at 2/3 of the soil, we can build an extremely wide range of water retention into the soil. The 1/8-1/4" pieces have little effect on that % because they are kind of neutral in their ability to hold water. We can also simply add a little more Turface or granite to change the 1:1:1 ratio and thus the water retention. This, in effect, simply reduces the organic (bark) component of the soil to something less than 1/3, which is fine. You can grow w/o the bark entirely if you choose. It's just more expensive to make the soil and people usually freak if I tell them you can grow anything you want to in gravel only.

There's more than you prolly wanted to know. I hope it's helpful. Time to get busy now, if you're convinced. ;o)

Take care.

Al

Al,

I am in S. Florida, the zone picker does not specify 10b, it defaults to 10 on display, always figured by saying 10b they would know S.Fl. Does not display it though.

So for Gritty or 511 the only difference is the bark is composted vs partially composted? As far as I understand, the actual size of the bark should be the same (1/8-1/4). Correct? (Or did I just make myself look like an @$s) :)

I do not even remember if any of the stuff I bought before stated that it was composted or not. There is a place called Bushel Stop locally I will check out on Monday for supplies.

I bought from a bushel stop once that was a 50 miles from my house I happened upon. Turns out there is one no more then 5 miles from my house. The bag I got from them, was dime sized pine bark, vs, conditioner which tends to be smaller.

The tropical plants / tree's I planted in the containers were planted with the dime sized fines from Bushel Stop. Those are the tree's that are thriving. I used the pine based conditioner on my plants, they did well also. I guess, I am wandering if one is better then the other. Based on what you said, for longevity, a little bigger and not composted would be a better deal. Conditioner may not be the right way to go for plants who way stay in a container for a long period of time. I am rambling......

With the 511 mix, you think it is good for one-two years, right? If the plants I put in the mix now, I know I will have to remove and repot in a year or so, should I just go with the 511 mix? Does it have any advantage over Gritty mix other then longevity?

Thanks.

The size of the bark in the 5:1:1 mix should just be 'fine'. If all the pieces are peat-fine, it's too fine. If all the pieces are bigger than a nickle, it's too coarse. You should prefer a nice mix of partially composted fine to dime-size particles in the 5:1:1 mix. If it's too fine - reduce the peat. If it's too coarse - increase the peat.

Preferred in the gritty mix is an uncomposted bark. In the 5:1:1 mix, a partially composted product is preferable.

You can tell if it's fresh or partially composted with only a cursory glance. Imagine what fresh bark looks like, then imagine what compost looks like (moist/dark/soft). There is a stark difference between the two.

That the 5:1:1 mix is good for 1-2 years is only my perspective. I have high standards. ;o) I can say that park breaks down at a rate slower than 1/4 that of peat, so if you're comparing a peat or coir soil to a bark-based soil after 2 years service, there will be no contest - the bark-based soil will still be vastly structurally superior to the peaty soil.

The gritty soil is the one with superior longevity, not the 5:1:1 mix. In my estimation, the only advantage the 5:1:1 mix has over the gritty mix is cost. Though the gritty mix will out-perform the 5:1:1 mix in the first year, the difference is quite marginal - especially once you get a handle on a good nutritional supple,entation program. It's in the second and subsequent years with the plant in the sdame soil that the longevity aspect starts to delineate between the two soils.

Al

Thank you Al. For the moment, I am going to try to get the ingredients back for the 511 and stick to what I KNOW works (assuming Bushel Stop has the ingredients). 511, has served me well. Since all of the tree's I have now will have to be repotted in 6 months or so, the next pot size will be more substantial and then I will move to the gritty mix. (after below)

In the mean time, I have a couple of tree's of "questionable character" :) ( Meaning not sure if I want them or not ) , and I will try the gritty mix on them. I can see where you said in the earlier post where people freak out a bit on the rocky soils! LOL. I have to experiment on it first.... :)

Thanks, I really appreciate the time you spent replying. Good folks like you have been a big help to me on this board and helped me out allot in my first couple of years in growing.

I just finally pulled my cucumbers (grown in 511) of variety Poinsette 76. I am glad, I am burned out on cucumbers now. It was like someone next to you who would not shut up! LOL. The cucumbers just would not stop coming in. Finally the heat got'em. :) Oh, my Okra (511), is doing OUTSTANDING! Every 2-3 days I am pulling enough for 2 people off. Cantaloupes did great too, the bugs were devastating though. Other stuff in 511, Fig tree, blueberries (less lime), blackberries, Barbados cherry, black mulberry and much more. Everything looks happy, green and healthy.

Using this mix, has definitely opened my eyes and helped me to get a better understanding of what happens in the container. It is one thing to read it, another to do it. Still have go back and read "Container Soils - Water Movement & Retention" from time to time. :-)

Cheers

Oh how I am confused, there is so much to read! Do you mix any soil with this gritty mix?

Take a deep breath, Alicia. ;o) First, so there is no argument: there is really no such thing as a 'proper' container soil for any plant; though, there are soils that are more appropriate and make it easier to coax your plants into being as close to what they can be as possible, within the limits of other cultural factors.

Even though it's often argued, we can say that the large majority will hold that soils made of significant fractions of topsoil/garden soil should be avoided in containers because of their small particle size and excessive water retention, which goes hand in hand with insufficient aeration.

Many of us have taken the logical position that soils comprised primarily of other fine particles - peat, compost, coir, also hold more water than we prefer, and feel these soils hold our plants back in terms of growth and vitality.

I found this to be very true in my plants by accident. I tried to grow bonsai in soils like MG or other bagged soils, and failed miserably (it's more difficult to grow in shallow pots using heavy soils). After considerable effort spent educating myself about bonsai soils, I started experimenting with ALL my soils for container plants. What grew out of it were the 5:1:1 mix and the gritty mix. Having switched to these soils, I can unabashedly say that the level of growth and vitality, as well how easy it is to achieve these common goals is greatly facilitated by these soils.

In the end, it all boils down to how much time/effort you'd like to devote to your growing experience. Fortunately, you have lots of people here willing to hold your hand and help you along if you decide to try something new. The number of people who have found out the same things I have is large, so there is little need to worry about the potential value of the soil(s) to your plants, only whether or not you're up for the journey. ;o)

"Do you mix any soil with this gritty mix?"

No, the gritty mix IS the soil. It's made from 3 ingredients and looks like this:
{{gwi:1295}}

or this:
{{gwi:4806}}

I have been growing all my houseplants and my long term plantings in this soil for more than 20 years. I'm always experimenting, and IF, in that time, I had found anything better, I'd be using it and helping others learn how tom make it, but so far, this is the best I've found.

We're always here to help if you need/want it.

Al

A little footnote on where to find clean, perfect sized fir bark, should anyone need it in small amounts... for houseplants.

PetsMart, or any pet store that deals in reptiles, should carry a product called Repti-Bark, made by ZooMed. It's 100% fir bark, clean, needs no sifting or rinsing, and the particles are perfect for any type of plant grown in a container. I buy it in 10 quart bags, but it does come in a larger bag size.

I mix Repti-Bark with perlite and granite chips, and I use it for my orchids, my precious bulbs, and every other indoor plant I grow! I love the stuff! Thanks, Al, for turning me on to such a great medium! And thanks for sharing such excellent growing knowledge! :-)

Thanks for the kind words, Jodi. ;o)

YPA

Al,

After reading your members page from the start of coming here, I have to keep reminding myself of how lucky my plants and I are to have met you here.

Many times over I could not understand or comprehend the knowledge, the meaning of so much you have expressed and you so freely dispensed here.
I think that if my plants could talk, they would proabbly tell me to convey a huge THANKS to you too since from the looks of things, most of them are performing better than ever..

Thank you for turning me on to this great medium too..

It still doesn't mean I will not have any more questions though and have to fine tune certain things..But you are always ready at the helm to pull us through and tough times!

Mike

Mike

Aww shucks! ;o)

Thanks, Mike.

Al

What have you found to use for "grit" in S Florida?