I walked by some Lemon Lights azaleas at a...(box store) and bought one because it smelled so good. I was supposed to look at my garden and place it where its upright "form" would go best and maybe decide how to use several to advantage in a...PLAN. Instead I have ended up plopping it near a seating area and I hope it will smell as good next spring.

I'm trying to find the scent link. Can you provide the link, or better yet, paste it in the message please? I really don't have time to read about it and I am not computer savy, so please give the smell in the message in the spirit of community that all of us interested in garden design share.

I've been wondering how soon modular gardens will be available: You go to a showroom, choose a 'retreat with a water feature,' 'garden dining room with seating for 8,' 'an entry garden' and 'a play area with suitable non-toxic plants.' They're trucked readymade to your lot, plunked down around your house and the seams covered with flagstone.

It will be unfortunate if the flatbeds meant for Arizona get sent to Connecticut, but some might like the variety, until it snows.

Nell

Also, um, I don't really want to ruin my manicure or have to deal with that, um, dirty stuff, so, I hope the computer program has a "LOW MAINTENANCE" option. And I don't want to spend a lot, because these manicures cost me a bundle and I have my priorities. 'Kay?

good one ink, it's a sad day when one's career can all be put on a computer program...

You all really interest me in your despise of software, But yet you use it everyday to post here. You use it almost every time you do anything today. You name it itÂs controlled by s/w.

If one does not have the talent to hand draw does that make them less of a designer? The pencil and paper are tools. Software and computers are tools. You have an eraser and I have a delete key. I can't draw 3D by hand very well at all but I can on the computer.

What I hear is "I've always done it this way so it's the only way". When I look at professional computer drawings and paintings I can't say they are bad because someone drew it on a computer, it was still drawn by hand with a different tool.

Using s/w does not take out "all the mistakes". Neither does using a pencil.

True nothing beets being in the garden, smelling the roses so-to-speak. Getting your hands dirty. Ask my wife, she just doesn't get how come every one of my t-shirts or jeans are stained and dirty...

BTW: For some reason I can oil paint landscapes pretty well. Go figure :)

Let the beating begin!

When I worked for a library, there were certain patrons who were convinced that we had the book they needed -- stop me if I've told this story before. They were convinced that we knew the title, the author and the book's position on the shelf, yet we just wouldn't give it to them.

Certain posters on this forum believe that somewhere there exists a magical software that will design their landscape plan -- IF we'll just reveal that program we know about. Personally, I think it's on the same site with that program that psychoanalyzes one by reflecting answers to key questions.

Nell

I can't even look at the cut and paste mocked-up images--the contrast and coloring is just too weird and I can't make out the edges or what the shapes are supposed to be. Not to mention weirdness of scale. I'd prefer a black and white 2-D plan or a well drawn 3-D rendering anyday.

For those people who are relying on cut and paste computer tools because you lack the ability to envision the space with changes--you are probably the ones most in need of the services of a designer or other person who can do this really well.

Now that proves my point. How can one be so closed minded? It astounds me. Not everyone thinks and sees as you do. I think there is room for both.

Ink: are you trying to stir up the pot?

mylu: I understand what you are saying and I mostly agree with you. I gave some software a try and found that it was pretty worthless for me. This was the Broderbund software where you pick rendered images out of a plant library (I gave a trial version of another one a spin as well). Here is a challenge. I would love for somebody to use similar software to create a rendered drawing of their current landscape and then post the actual picture and the rendered picture. How similar does it look?

The "cut and paste" type drawings can be very useful for visualizing a plan. But like you said, this is just one of the tools. I often see pictures posted of 8' wide shrubs stuck in a 3' deep bed. Photo editing software makes it too easy to scale plants and to forget about depth, not to mention how odd it looks to have every plant in bloom at the same time.

One day there will be great landscape design software. I will strap on goggles and be able to see lifelike 3-D rendering of plants and hardscape. This software will have all the plants available in its library. It will ensure that every plant is located is a suitable location. If I need to move around a plant I will reach down and move it with my hands. I will be able to simulate any time of the day or year and watch my plants grow. This software may even allow me to enjoy the wonderful sent of a peony in bloom. Until then I have found that colored pencil and paper works better for me (and I have almost no artistic talent).

- Brent

Sorry, I don't think it's closed minded. I'm not judging between drawings or computer renderings except to say that I can not see the computer renderings well (I think it's the gaudy colors and lack of shading) and I have concerns about the misuse of scale in the computer renderings.

However, I think that the ability to visualize a completed project is something that a design savvy person brings to the
table--a critical component of the process. If you've admitted to yourself that you can't imagine or visualize well, then why do you trust other elemets of the planning process such as the overall scope of the project? You need to be able to envision the ways in which a retaining wall or fence or courtyard area might change the space before you choose to drag and drop. And you need to know more about the plants than just what shape they are when you cut and paste.

These programs give people who should be asking for some sort of design or horticultural advice the illusion that they are doing OK on their own. The talent of the designer is in the elements that he chooses to drag and drop--not in the rendering, whether manual or computer generated. I guess the evil way to put it would be, "garbage in...garbage out". Or, just because I purchased an organ that has a million and one available sounds and accompanying rhythms doesn't make me a musician--even if I can make more organized sounds than I did before.

Just my .02 and I'm not a professional designer or anything.

Hey Brent, the pot needed stirring didn't it as stuff was sticking to the bottom. The responses here have shown that what we want from our close by outdoor space, call it a garden or a yard,is not reasonable and is connected more to emotions, a place where computers will never reach. So to use computers to reach that space is not going to work. Yes, of course I realise that I am using a computer to communicate my thoughts, but I own my thoughts whatever you may think of them.

No, no, no. Here's how I use my Picture It program -- But wait: first, a little story.

I'd like to get dressed. Do I have to design and sew all my clothes? Everyone really looks down on people who buy their clothes ready made. Yes, I have to design and sew my clothes. Can't get dressed until I do. Wait: there's an alternative which will get me dressed a lot faster. I'll Pay Someone to design and make my clothes and deliver them ready to go.

Alas! That really isn't going to happen on my budget. I'll have to make them myself. And I haven't the faintest idea what looks good on me and I can't sew a stitch. Never mind, I'll educate myself. Wait: Here's a computer program which will take my measurements and other facts, and come up with a picture of something that looks good on me. All I have to do then is sew it. Heck, I learned sewing in junior high school.

But wait! People look down on people like me who use a computer program to design my clothes. Well, I'm ashamed to use a program......

(One year later.) Okay, I think I've got my clothes all made. Just a quick look in the mirror . . . Hey, that looks really dumb. The collar needs to be a lot bigger, make the blouse red instead of blue, - - - -

Never mind. I'd rather go naked.

So, maro, (approaching this in jesting spirit)

You decide for some reason that you want pink and orange madras shorts--I don't know why, maybe you are nostalgic for the early eighties. The computer program allows you to overlay the fabric pattern onto the shorts template. You decide you want the shorts a biiiit longer...like walking shorts. The computer helps you to do this, also.

It is worth it for you to go out of the house in the shorts? Do you wish a salesperson...or anyone...had clued you in?

Hi sammie  I get it!

Yes, I do  thatÂs why I use the forum! And had a designer draw a plan!

No, in my story I wanted the computer to design some clothes because I couldn't. The computer would never have let me get away with those gawdawful shorts!

IÂm just being silly, but canÂt we use the computer just an eensy bit to help us visualize?

Anyway, I use Picture It a lot because it's fun and it has been helpful. I can cut out plants from photographs and put them in a picture of my yard, and make them the right size in comparison to other things, and get a pretty good idea. IÂve used it a few times to help decide placement and it was actually very helpful. I decided against a dense dark green shrub because it just didn't look good. Really!

There are probably more sophisticated things, too, but that's just what I have.

I used some in a thread called ÂFront yard Landscape recently just to see what a house might look like. Tell me what you think - it's OK, you can tell me. :)))

It is not software that people are ridiculing, it is the expectation by some people that software processes design and can fully elevate them to the same level that many others achieved by years of hard work and studying.

Does anyone know that I dropped out of LA school in 1982 because I could not draw at a competitive level? I went back, learned cad and got my degree in 1997. I don't hate software. I do not like people fooling themselves or other with it (it usually being photoimaging software).

Mylu is right on about it being a tool just as pencils and paper are.

laag--you surprise me, I would have thought that the architect's mind would take to perspective like a fish to water. I've messed around with a couple of CAD programs--one professional and one off-the-shelf and I found that, to do a good job, I spent more time entering coordinates than I would have spent making a revolved plan perspective drawing.

Lagg,
I am truly humbled. I read most of your post and I respect your point of view. (no I'm not kissing up :-)

I spent most of the evening after dark tonight working on a design for our new garden in our circle drive for the nursery. It's about 60x80. It's a big project and will take about 3 years to complete. The lay out is being done with software. We have raised beds surrounded by stone in various places. I can't, with my drawing skill, do this on paper. My desk is just not big enough. In this instance the computer is the best method for me to create and re-create and re-create, and re-create the detail I am looking for. I can draw and erase as much as I want. I think my children would get upset if I used up all their erasers!

What I hear from folks is "if you use a computer to draw your designs then your design is not worth me even looking at". In my opinion my designs have feeling. I do visit the site, talk to my customers, get in their heads, find out what ticks. Then I take lots of "digital" pictures, run by s/w, and take them home for study. I'm guessing a few of you folks that draw do the same.

As I stated before I can oil paint reasonable well. I just can't draw in 3d. My brain must not be configured right. I truly respect any artist that can draw very well. I wish I was one but I am not.

As the younger generation and technology improves you are going to see what Brent is saying. Sad to say but paper will disappear. As landscapers wouldn't it be nice to not have to throw another tree away because you made a mistake? I can truly see how one that learned landscaping and drawing 10, 20 years ago, the pencil would be his/her best friend. Weren't no good s/w programs back then after all! Let alone any one that can draw any plant from memory. You all are real artist.

For those that say computer drawn graphics are not up to par I say spend some good money on a faster CPU, memory and most of all a real video card. And I mean $500.00 or more for the video card alone. (and don't cheap out on the monitor) You might be surprised of the quality of graphics you see.

Sammie,
As you said you spent more time putting in cords the working. The more you work with the software the better and more efficient you become. It becomes second nature just like hand drawing. My guess is the learning curve throws most folks off and never learn the true potential of the s/w. After all they always did it this or that way before.

P.S. I sold another design tonight that was drawn by hand (in 2d top down). Both tools work for me. And I never post a message with out cutting and pasting to Word to spell checking first. Now when are they going to get a grammar checker? Opps more software...

CAD does only what you tell it to do. You still have to use all of the techniques that one would use when drawing by hand - lineweight, stippling, etc,... You still have to learn graphic and drawing techniques because the computer has no idea what you are trying to accomplish.

I also take a lot of digital photos for reference for when I'm back in the office.

I rely on surveyors and their software to have an accurate base plan, email for comunication, creating pdf files to quickly exchange plan information to clients, architects, attorneys,..., I use a database to track and sort ongoing projects and materials, I use tables within word processor with formulas in them to do price estimations, and I am the first to slam a newbie who wants a software before they have any idea what to do with it.

Clearly, it is more difficult to learn what to do, why you are doing it, and how to do it if you add learning a software that does none of that into the mix at the same time, in my opinion. The software is a distraction at best.

'What I hear from folks is "if you use a computer to draw your designs then your design is not worth me even looking at".'

I've never heard anyone here say anything like that. I also don't recall more than a couple of cases where a landscape designer posted to ask about software. In the vast majority of cases, it's a homeowner who has absolutely no clue on what to do, drawing skills aside, who is looking for computer software that will help them "design" their landscape. What you have heard is the exasperation at having to explain over and over again (use the "search" feature, please!) what software will or will not do for them, rather than just directing them to a website that compares 5 packages, all under $100, and letting them go on in blissful ignorance, thinking the software is going to make their design better.

The mockup software is useful as a sales tool, after the design is done in plan view, to help the client visualize the completed design if they are unable to do it without a mockup. Thanks to HGTV, people are now expecting and asking for these computer mockups. (They're also expecting three designers to come out and do a design for free and submit it for approval, but that's another thread.)

For the homeowner, the software allows them to play with different looks, but as with all computer software, garbage in, garbage out, as someone has already noted. I had a couple of students in my design class last semester paste zone 8 shrubs from the software library onto a mockup on a zone 5 project. Too lazy to research suitable plants or widen the palette of available plant images by importing them from other sources. Kids!

Saypoint,
Sammie in the above thread says "I can't even look at the cut and paste mocked-up images"

That indeed says "I won't even consider looking".

mylu--I did say that, and went on to clarify by adding, "...the contrast and coloring is just too weird and I can't make out the edges or what the shapes are supposed to be. Not to mention weirdness of scale." I think those are completely valid reasons for not liking any rendering. Don't take something out of context.

I find that it bugs me to have Nanking Cherries and Purple Dome Asters blooming at the same time - and blooming all season long, I might add...

Plus, I did say "cut and paste." I wasn't slamming a really well done CAD product. However, with the proliferation of cheap and accessible products, I don't think quite as many folks are turning out really well done CAD drawings. When I turn on HGTV, I don't see well done CAD--I see what looks like homeowner level cut and paste. I'm disappointed by the lack of professional standards in this area.

And when I wrote "I can't even look at it," that's exactly what I meant--the hard edges, the lack of shading to help one find the edges and determine volume and distance, the bits of background accidently caught up in the cut and paste--it makes my eyes strobe and I don't have the focus to look long enough to figure out what is going on.

Deja vu all over again. Is this conversation programmed into the GW calendar software?

What laag said.

There is a world of difference between professional design produced using software and the fun mock-ups we see occasionally presented on this forum, just as there is a world of difference between a hand-drawn professional technical plan and the rough sketch we see occasionally presented on this forum. We only very rarely see the professional form, whether done by CAD or by hand.

I can accept these things at face value for what they are: an attempt at visual communication. Some are better than others. Some people like to do the pencil/paper thing, some people enjoy the keystroke/mouse thing. There is nothing more to it than that.

When someone asks about landscape design software, they are only asking for a tool to help with an attempt at visual communication. As my son would say, "Deal with it!"

As to HGTV, argh! That is an entertainment medium presenting content to sell commercials. It is not in any way connected with professional standards. Do not be confused.

I don't think there is a 'best' result from the use of only hand work or only computer work. I have worked through both, and find that a merger of the two methods serves both my time schedule and the product.

I prefer hand rendering, with a combination of AD markers, water color, and chalk pastel. But I like the precision of hard geometry to show as precision lines with reference to soft, hand-drawn elements that speak of living things. For that to show clearly, I like to use AutoCad for drafting lines, print that on mylar (nice for graphite, and fun to blend on), then print the final on vellum for rendering. The markers blend nicely on the vellum, and don't bleed. Vellum also allows for backcolor that comes through softly as a background to rendered elements.

All that is to say that hand drawing-rendering and computer drafting really work together if I treat them as a hybrid single method, not distinguishing one from the other but blending the two.

Because the color is hand rendered, I tend to think about the subtle properties of my plant choices while rendering them--visualizing the plant, its flowering characteristics and true mature size, its shadow at the time of day I am intending to represent, and its resolution with respect to the far background. These things are properties I can focus on because hand rendering does take longer and gives more time to reflect on the choices and their interaction with each other. I even find myself mentally wandering through the space I'm creating while finishing the drawings of them.

i came out of school slightly before CAD. ohh, the hours i spent over the drafting table. the residential/environmental designers and the landscape architects were all lumped into the same many many drafting classes. one of the ultimate goals was to be able to go out in the field and be able to produce a decent hand drawn rendering to give to your potential client on the spot, sort of something to remember your talents by other than just a business card. do designers still do this? can this be done on a lap top out in the field? are renderings too artsy? are software pics too tech looking? i dunno...

Wow.. all this techno hostility. Software isn't a be all and end all, it's a tool to be used, just like a hoe or mulch. It's something to be used to make the path to the end result easier and more enjoyable.

Get over your phobia. It's not going to put anyone out of work, or replace anyone.

worm ct--I think you may be missing WHY there is all the techno hostility. You see, at LEAST once a month we have a poster who asks somehting along the lines of "Best Software for DIY Home Landscaping Design?" For years laag, Ink, and others explained that, without knowledge, such software was, essentially, useless. It's not that they hate software, per se, it's that in the hands of a novice gardener it's not really a useful tool. But many novices refuse to believe that.

melanie

From a DIYÂers perspective, I have found that even very archaic design software comes in quite handy. Being the type who is unable to draw a straight line with a ruler, particularly when IÂm working with a blank slate in my yard, I use the software to get a basic layout and feel for how different shapes and color combinations work out. This has saved me quite a bit of time and money in that, I do not need to buy the plants that I "think" might work, play with their arrangements and then learn that none of it works for me.

Though the final arrangement usually changes from the initial computer layout, it generally follows the layout and overall plant selection in terms of colors, sizes and shapes and does help me to "see" my thoughts.

I suspect that there are others out there in the world like me who need to actually see it in 3D to visualize it. Whatever project I undertakeÂeven something as simple as painting a wall, I need to see it before I do it and I have found consumer-grade software to provide the easiest, least expensive way of helping with that. If I hired an LA, I would insist on a computer rendering because my brain is simply unable to process one-dimensional drawings or others' visual descriptions.

Ok I have to jump in here after reading everyones $.02
Maybe ... just maybe... some of these people that are repeating a software question post are completely new to gardening and yardwork in general. MAYBE they are young and actually looking for a peice of software to aid in the learning of the art of planning, landscaping and gardening.... which more experienced and veteran persons have already learned from other tools and or people.

I have been using several resources to learn the art of design: plant libraries online, missouri conservation dept., computer software, GARDENWEB (everyone take a bow here), and In-Laws (more experienced landscapers/gardeners who did not benefit from the WWW)

ANd do not complain about a repeat subject poster. First there are multiple post over the past 4 years for EVERY topic of discussion in this forum, so EVERYONE DOES IT! Second .... YOU CLICKED THE THREAD... YOU WERE NOT FORCED TO READ IT... if you see the subject of the thread that roughly says "looking for DIY Garden planner" and you feel this strongly about people posting without searching get over it and do not read the post.

WELL i NEVER..... i ENJOY THE DIVERSITY OF DRAG AND DROP S/W WITH ANNUALS AND PERENNIALS..WALKWAYS, GRAVELS.OBJECTS AND TREES.. IT ALLOWS ME TO VISUALIZE COLOR SCHEMES AND BACKGROUNDS AS WELL AS TEXTURES.....i THINK IT IS GREAT AND i AM ALWAYS NEEDING A MANICURE DUE TO DIGGING AND MOVING THIS PLANT HERE OR THIS PLANT THERE FOR A BETTER LAYOUT OR MORE PUNCH WITH COLORS......... DIVERSITY........ ITS THE KEY WORD.