Hi, LL. I don't spend much time at the Citrus Forum, but a friend has recently invited me to start. I have had conversation enough with "rickjames" to know that you can trust info from this source. Try to ignore posters that suggest you use sand, topsoil, and more than about 10-15% sphagnum peat in your soil mixes. Not having used chc's before, I'll withhold comment until I can speak from my own experience.

All the citrus I've grown, which is only about 6 trees, did very well in a mix of equal parts (by volume) of pine bark, Turface, and crushed granite. You should be able to locate those ingredients, or suitable substitutes near you.

I'll send "rickjames" a heads-up about your post.

My first tendency would be to remain unworried over pathogens in the chc's, especially after rinsing, but who knows what might be coming into the country in raw materials.

Al

thanks for respongding Al.

What do you think about the fir bark from Pet Smart? I think it was called Repti bark.. Would it act as fir bark fines? I am confused on the concept of "fines"..

I have also been reading a lot of what Rick James says as he has an interest in citrus too.

I am currenty using for my trees a blend of about: 2pts ordhid blend that contains(fir bark,charcol,lava rock, sponge rock,peat), 1 1/2 pts miracle grow tropical potting mix, and 1 pt cedar shavings.. very nice so far, but trees have only been in this mix for a month and everything does good when you first mix it..

They are growing like crazy right now, but I know I made a boo boo when I potted them cause I left the soil on them that was in the original pots- now I have 2 different soils (one around the root zone and another around that). It has been kind of difficult to tell when to water- tried a water meter but it alwats read wet even when I knew they were not.

All help is greatly appreciated.

I have got to get some glasses!

Sorry for all the type o's in my response...

You all do know I meant to say Orchid Bark, right?
lol everyone..

littlelemon, I posted a response on the citrus forum thinking I was in the container forum (they are right next to each other in my favorites folder).
Lydia

The product you are considering is completely toxin free so no worries there.

However, consider the cost over other bark fines (small bark chips with the average size being around 1/2 inch).

For $5.00 I can get a 2 cubic foot bag of pine bark chips from Walmart. You said the coconut bark was $8.29 for 10 dry quarts. 10 quarts is roughly 1/3 cu foot. This works out to be about $50 for a 2 cu foot bag.

In other words it costs about 10x as much as other bark material.

Why? I really don't know since the coconut is a waste product from the coconut industry. It is crap (good crap) they used to have to find a way to toss out and then got smart and realized there was a market for it. Mighty pricey for what is essentially an industry waste product.

I am using coconut coir in a worm bin and I think it is fantastic stuff. If this stuff was the same price as peat I would never buy peat again. Unfortunately it also costs 10x as much as peat. Sigh.

I think coconut products are simply being marketed as 'gourmet alternatives' and they are priced like alternative gourmet products.

I will wait until the sellers calm down and the hype subsides, but it's your money ;-)

It is good stuff in potting mixes, great stuff actually, but horribly overpriced.

LL - I think your mix sounds very good. Only thing I would change is eliminating the cedar chips and cut back to 1 part MG mix. I also think your trees would benefit from a larger mineral presence in the soil, like 1/3 - 1/2 small pumice, lava rock, or Turface. I just bought a bag of Espoma Soil Perfecter (on sale for $8 for 27 lbs - reg price was $12 It looks like great stuff (like Turface, only larger particles & dark gray color) for woody plant soils & I wouldn't hesitate a bit to use it.

Just remember - container soils are all about getting the structure as close to perfect as you feel is reasonable. You can fine tune the blend for water & nutrient applications by adding different components as you learn how it performs. The best soils will require more effort of you - just the way it is. Healthiest soils will be more open, with lots of air pores & will require more frequent watering and fertilizing.

Al

Hi everyone,

I am sure there are other CHC users who will comment. Beg your pardon for my long-windedness...and I want to get a shot out to cool dude Al :)

I don't personally have any concern about toxic residues in CHCs; of course in countries with different or no regulations on chemical use I do sort of wonder, but I somehow don't think that coconuts are a crop ridden with pests and thus end up significant pesticide exposure. Heck are they even a crop? (I thought they just fell into the ocean and were scooped up lol)...If anything they might have a bit of bacterial load if they were floating in nasty contaminated seawater but prolly nothing your plants could transmit to you...no worse than what we prolly already use in our containers and gardens, lol. Plus, I seem to think reptiles are sensitive to stuff like that and thus prolly wouldn't do well if their bedding was a mess of DDT or something else equally yummy :) Any reptile people out there? (lemonsforchams I think...?)

I have to be perfectly honest in saying that I do not care for CHCs. I tried chcs because I want something that can take a rainy winter outside and something that I will not have to reaplace in a season or two. I have read of many people on these forums that just love them , but I have had poor luck with them. I have tried chips from different distributors; and I soak/rinse them to death; I've done what I can for a cation/salt exchange; I've tried pure chcs and chcs mixed with peat; I remove most to all of the original rootball soil; the result is the same--too wet. I know, it's weird, they seem like they would aerate well and they just don't. Now, I haven't tried the *recommended* brand from St.Louis, and I haven't done the exact recommended chemical wash (where you get that stuff is still a mystery to me), but I somehow don't think that is the key. I can go for at least a whole month without watering and I live in a dry (and often windy) climate! That's got nothing to do with proper prep, I'd bet. I've tried at least 7-10 plants in it--mostly citrus and amaryllis and they universally do poorly save for one--and that one I have NOT had to water in the last 3 weeks (!) and somehow it is ok, not counting on it to do well in the long term. The plants that are long-termers like the citrus just sort of sit there (no response to fertilizers) and slowly decline over a few months--have lost one, another 2 looking like they're gonna die and so I moved them out recently, a few others that may be circling the drain. I don't care for the coir/ground husk fiber for the same reason--stuff just rots so quickly in it.

I am thinking of trying the chcs on plants that don't care if they sit in a moist wet environment--maybe guava or calla lilies. Not sure yet.

As a result I am experimenting with a mostly inorganic/largely inorganic medium. (Al's been right all along :) However, I am going to try a mixture of Turface and CHC's--I actually need something that has better water retention and so these may do the trick. I bought a little Meyer lemon that is gonna be my guinea pig, poor thing.

It seems that everyone has their favorite mix and I think it has a lot to do with exactly what your goals are and also I am beginning to feel that climate will play a role in it too--not just moisture regulation but also speed of decomposition of your soils and thus lack of aeration/too much water retention and subsequent rot...and then another addition to the compost pile :(

Just my experiences. Am not prepared for any sort of backlash from chc lovers :)

Oh yeah be sure to soak and rinse at least a few times--they're supposedly loaded with sea salt and that needs to come off.

And when it comes to pricing--not too bad at a local garden center where I can get it "over-the-counter" for--I believe--1 cubic foot or so for maybe 14 bucks. I also bought from a direct importer in southern CA for about 18 bucks for a huge bale (I travel to L.A. quite often)--I think 3 cubic feet, compressed, but it sure seems like more than that once hydrated and deompressed; I think it is 20 lbs dry? Can't recall for sure. And I think this place has reasonable shipping prices, can't really remember now, email me if you want their contact info; they're an orchid supply importer.

HTH. Shuttin up before someone lobs a coconut at my head.

RJ is right about climatic effect on soil choice. Our job is to build a soil that retains enough water to keep the plant from drought stress for a reasonable amount of time (for me, 24 hours is perfect) and that allows O2 back into the soil quickly. The very best container soils will be in the neighborhood of 70% porous, with about half that (30-35%) being air porosity. This means that when containers are fully saturated and and have just stopped draining, there is still about 1/3 of the total volume of the soil that is air, and about the same volume of water. When you start using lots of peat, sand, compost, or small particulates, the air volume decreases inversely with the increase in water volume - not good.

Roots that are deprived of O2 begin to die quickly, within hours. Many say, "My plants do fine & I only water every three days". Their plants COULD do better. If your soil is remaining wet for three days, roots ARE dying - fine roots. When the air volume returns to a favorable level, roots begin to regenerate. You think your plants are fine, but this seesaw death and regeneration is very taxing to plant's energy reserves. The energy it takes to regenerate new roots is energy the plant would normally devote to the production of flowers, fruit, or other biomass.

In container culture, all things are not as they seem. Growing in a poor soil is like having to walk 100 miles. Then, you discover a passable soil, and it's like riding a bike for the same 100 miles - makes you soooo glad, and many are happy for a better way to reach "B" from "A" - soo happy, they become complacent. We should be happy because they are happy. Growing in a great soil is like having a big, fancy motorcycle to make your 100 mile jaunt seem like a walk in the park. It just makes everything soo much easier.

Was that a rant? I think it was a rant.

Al

Many thanks for all the responses everyone-

it's so nice to be able to learn from people that all seem to love making things grow- like me:)

The addition of the cedar shavings was done as recommended by the people I got my kumquat and limequat from- so I did it. They seem to be doing great, but just about all mixes do great when they're fresh- I just don't want everything to break down and cause the trees to do not so great. So you think they are not needed Al?

I will probably look at repotting them after about 6 months if water starts draining too slow (don't want to wait til plants show signs of declining). At that time I hope to add some turface or soil conditoner and some pumice to the mix- if I can find them.. haven't been able to find either one in the last few days. Everytime I ask for 'growers grit' they say it has oyster shells in it- this is not the right stuff, right? due to all the calcium? Or am I wrong?

As far as the coconut husks go- I may wait on trying them after I see how rick james does with his guinea pig meyer lemon (though with all the problems with m. lemons on this forum I might try c. husks with something not quite so finicky LOL).

much thanks for all the input from everyone!
Looking forward to chatting and learning.

Rickjames,

I'm not sure I understand your post. Here you say: "I've tried pure chcs and chcs mixed with peat; I remove most to all of the original rootball soil; the result is the same--too wet"

Then you say: "As a result I am experimenting with a mostly inorganic/largely inorganic medium. (Al's been right all along :) However, I am going to try a mixture of Turface and CHC's--I actually need something that has better water retention and so these may do the trick."

You say the chips are too wet, but want better moisture retention?

CHCs are used commonly by Orchid growers, who need excellent aeration, and do not want retained moisture. Orchid roots rot very easily, as I learned the hard way(G).

I have been growing in CHC mixes for several years now. My climate is horrible - hot, humid, and hurricanes to name a few high points. I grow fruit trees mostly, so I wanted a mix that would last years before I had to repot. Most bark breaks down too quickly. Commercial bagged mixes pack down into a soggy mass, and I get root rot. I do tend to overwater...

I rinse my CHCs in a very simple way. I dump them into an old dog wading pool with holes punched in the bottom. I fill the pool halfway and let it drain. Over a few days I refill and drain the CHCs at least 3 times. I make my mixes different all the time.

Here is a photo of two Pear Trees. Purchased bare root, one in a CHC, perlite, pine bark and peat mix, the other in a commercial peat-based mix with pine bark and perlite added. The trees have been ignored, sitting in an old dog run for over a year. Went through a hurricane, drought, no fertilizer, rare watering. When I went to unpot them finally to plant them in the ground, the CHC grown tree held tight to all the soil. The other pulled right out of the commercial mix, and had unhealthy looking roots. Notice the difference in trunk caliper.

{{gwi:5920}}

I wonder if the peat you used caused your mix to be too wet, if it clogged up the CHC pores? I use only a little coarse peat, it tends to pack down too much to suit me.

When I've unpotted other trees in CHCs, the chips were in great shape, not decayed, firm, and moist. I do have big problems getting the roots to let go of the chips-they hold them very tightly.

I've used Aliflor and CHCs together, it worked fine but requires much more frequent watering.

So far, I'm very pleased with CHCs. My trees look happy and produce plentiful fruit.

Lisa

With all due respect, Lisa, I have seen your comments before--as well as this photo, last year I believe--and they are some of the reasons I opted to try the chcs. You have had very good results and I seek to imitate them. Surely if your plants in chcs thrive in your very wet climate then surely they will do well in my wet winters and in my dry summers with liberal water application.

Basically, I want a medium that I can water more or less on a schedule (in the seasons that need watering of course), without having check each plant and decide. I want something so when I go out of town and I have someone watching my plants, I don't have to worry that they are overdoing it. I want something where I can leave it outside in the rain of winter and not have to worry about sheltering them. Basically I want this to be as idiot-proof as possible when it comes to the prevention of overwatering and I am willing to try anything as a medium for that. Also, with all the talk of how chcs are long-lasting, of course I am interested in that. I want a long-lasting medium that will allow me to keep my plants smaller for many years to come; I am not interested in potting up and absolutely not interested in eventually placing them in the ground. Will finding the right media end all growing issues? No. Am I searching for the impossible? Probably, but it's about the journey and not just the destination, right? :)

I find that my chcs hold a lot of water because I can go for *weeks* without watering--no wilting, no leaf/blossom/fruit drop, no nothing that looks at all like water stress. And I have also tried a more liberal water schedule--some seem to feel these chcs cannot be overwatered-->same results. I get no new growth but instead a very slow decline--save for one that I put into chcs maybe 4-6 weeks ago that has continued with its new growth, don't know why that one is different, nothing else done differently, but time will tell and I really hope it makes it because I like this tree--nonetheless, plants have rotted roots when I pull them up in an attempt to salvage, and the chcs are still moist. Moist is good, but rotted roots are bad, lol...There are others who have tried and failed with chcs too--though also plenty of those who succeed--and I wish to elucidate exactly what separates them eventually, in my *abundant spare time* ;)

I have used Millet's recommdation of 1.5 peat:4 chcs, I've tried straight chc's; I've tried 6 parts chcs to 1 part peat--same thing (I try to avoid peat as well). Have not tried amending with Perlite as well but somehow I don't think adding all these particles of different size are the answer. I could be wrong. It is interesting that you use other stuff in your mix as well--bark, perlite, and peat as well as the chcs. Doesn't the bark and peat decompose too rapidly for you, as you stated, or maybe it's in small enough quantity that the decomp is negligible?

Last, to clarify, I want better moisture retention in my *Turface* mix, and maybe the chcs will provide this. Plus I have a bunch of chcs to use up. Testing underway :)

Have a nice evening and Mother's day everyone.