Al's 5-1-1 and yellowing leaves? Help!

14 years ago

Hi all,

I've been using Al's 5-1-1 potting mix for quite some time now with my houseplants and annuals. I really love the way it holds water: not too much, not too little. Most of my plants have really flourished.

So this spring when I received some miniature rose plants, I immediately mixed up a bit batch of potting mix. I used a 1 gallon nursery pot for the proportions, but I confess, I got cocky and just eyeballed the lime. I probably tossed a medium sized handful of dolomitic lime into the 7 gallon total volume of mix.

But now most of the roses are growing much more slowly than expected and the youngest leaves and new growth are lighter and yellower than expected. I've watered regularly and applied dilute Miracle Gro a few times. I'm guessing I probably under- or over-dosed on lime...but which? And how do I correct it?

Here are a couple of pics of what I'm talking about.

Sort by:Oldest

Comments (7)

tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
14 years ago
Have you fertilized yet? With what? When last? How often?

What have the temperatures been like where you are?

Al
meyermike_1micha
14 years ago
The lime doesn't sound like the problem to me..Looks like you say you lightly fertilized a few times..

I also question the temps?

Does the fertilizer you use have iron in it?

Mike
Related Discussions
Al's Gritty 5.1.1 or 1.1.1. Which is best for 10b zone
Q
Comments (52)
Anurag - the thread about container soils and water retention was written with the hope that those reading it would come away with an understanding of how water behaves in soils, & particularly how particle size and other physical characteristics impact perched water retention and o/a water retention. It's up to the grower to decide what he/she wants to do - how diligently they want to work at reducing the amount of excess water their soils hold. 1:1:1, screened bark:screened Turface:grit is the most productive soil I've used, but I don't use it for everything. Veggies & plants I know are only going to live a year of go 1 year between repots, usually go in the 5:1:1 mix. All of my woody plants, housep0lants including succulents, and other plants I know will be in the same soil for 2 growth cycles or longer, go in the gritty 1:1:1 mix. The 1:1:1 and 5:1:1 ratios are guidelines, but they're good ones. They minimize the amount of perched water a soil holds, and the gritty mix makes a good run at maximizing the volume of water held inside soil particles while still offering additional adjustability. If you live in a rainy climate and you're using the gritty mix, you might want to increase the amount of grit and decrease the amount of Turface commensurately. If it's dry where you live, increase the Turface and decrease the grit - but make sure that the soil holds enough water to carry you through the dry days, but not so much your plant suffers during periods of prolonged rain. Shading the pots when it's hot is very helpful. High soil/root temps is one of the primary limiting factors for container growers. I like soluble synthetic fertilizers. There is no more efficient way to ensure your plants get what they need, when they need it, at the right ratio, and in a favorable o/a concentration. How you fertilize is up to you, but soluble synthetics make fertilizing almost foolproof, as long as the grower holds up his/her end of the deal. When you root prune, the object is to eliminate large roots that aren't attached to the trunk and are in unfavorable positions to make room for and increase the number of fine roots, which do all the work except anchoring and transport. You'll need to develop a feel for root pruning because all plants don't get the same treatment. Reread the thread about water movement in soil, and the one about trees in containers. Make sure you understand what's in those threads. If you do gain that understanding, it should make a significant difference in what you get back for your efforts. Best luck. Al
...See More
Tomatoes in Al's 5-1-1 with pictures - Thank you Al & everyone
Q
Comments (8)
Thank you Al. All of your threads are joy to read with explanation that a common person can understand. SuburbangardenMD, Yeah I am planning to train them on string after it gets little taller. PJ, Josh I didn't expect it turn like this but I did plant it may be 5" below where its now. I kept topping the mix when the plant started growing and they are in 18 gallon pot 3/4 filled with mix.
...See More
Al's 5-1-1 and Sapwood. Worried about my mix...
Q
Comments (17)
Ah, the search continues to find the elusive Pine bark fines! I am in awe of Al's vast knowledge and in fact, became a Member of the Garden Web after reading the "Al Chronicles" in seven (or is it 8 now?) Volumes. Al, you are the Zen Master of wicks, water plateaus, and medium mixology! .....but I digress. I wanted to mention one source of nitrogen that will slow release and is more to my liking as it doesn't come out of a bottle (though it does come in pelleted form), which is Alfalfa Pellets. (the horse kind, not the rabbit). The pellets will swell and fall apart as soon as water is applied and offer a quick fix of readily available nitrogen to offset those pesky sap woods in your pine bark nuggets. For my OCD tenancies, I don't care for any of the bagged bark products available from your local Home Improvement Palaces, because in my estimation, none qualify as true Pine Bark Fines. What I consider pine bark fines is always PARTIALLY COMPOSTED PINE BARK, which by it's very nature, you can crumble into bits through a diamond mesh screen. Almost without exception today's "Forest Products" are the byproduct of lumber harvesting, which is ground up and dispensed into bags. Nothing even approaching composting of pine bark is occurring with these products because it takes too long. I haven't found a reliable source of "fines" other than harvesting my own from around the bases of harvested Ponerosa pines cut over a decade ago.Old timber operations often left the bark and branches piled at the harvesting site, which is another good source, as are old dead snags, which will have the bark slip from them and land about their bases. All of this requires a bit of labor on your part, but then again, it's a lovely way to spend the weekend, right? National Forests in California are quite accommodating and will issue a permit if required, or happily point you in the direction of a likely spot to forage. I can usually fill my pickup truck bed in about 4 hours and all it costs me is my time and gas for the truck. I attribute my OCD behavior on the subject to an ancient Bonsai Master I had the privilege to study under back in the late '60's, who was very exacting in his tutelage. "Fines" were exclusively "Partially Composted Pine Bark", period.
...See More
Newb help needed for 5-1-1 and 1-1-1 Gritty
Q
Comments (7)
I have seen where the Pine Bark Fines is referred to as 'soil conditioner' as well as the Turface being referred to as 'soil conditioner'. What exactly is Turface, They are both "soil conditioners" Pine Bark fines are organic. Turface is calcined Montmorillonite clay. Check your area for John Deere Landscape suppliers. If you can't find that then check your Tractor supply for "Oil Dry" in 40# bags. It will need to have the fines removed with an 1/8th inch screen. I've also read that it was like kitty litter, isn't that the same as the grit? So confused! :S the kitty litter is a clay product. The chicken grit is often a crushed granite product. It is a volume and aeration additive (?) that does not soak up water like the clay or the bark. I plan on buying the Reptibark for my Gritty so I won't have to screen and not for sure what I will need to get for the 5-1-1 bark fines. For the 5-1-1 mix check out the pine bark soil conditioners. See if it is ground to a fairly small size and is 100% pine. I have seen some that have other items like ground forest products whick are of questionable background. Locally I have Lowes, Tractor Supply, and Atwoods. I called Tractor Supply and they carry the Manapro grit for $4.99 and Atwoods has a 5lb bag of grit for $2.87 (they didn't know what brand). Then do I need to get the Lime and Gypsum for both (which for which mix?) or can I get just one of the two to use on both mixes? If I understand it correctly the lime is added to the 5-1-1 mix at the rate of 1 tablespoon per gaollon of mix. Seems that the ph of the 1-1-1 mix warrants the use of gypsum in the mix and then epsom salts are added to the water to help free up Ca and Mg. I don't have to make very much so I really don't want to have to buy 50 lb bags of all this! lol Also, what exactly to do for both on the fertilizer that's listed? you can add a Controlled release fertilizer or it is recommended to water with a weak fertilizer solution. Tapla has written on this and is worth the read Thank you so much for the help and sorry for all the q's! Thanks Al for all the help you are giving everyone!
...See More
alison_27
Original Author
14 years ago
Let's see. I received these roses in early April. We've had one week of heavy rain (just under an inch that week) but otherwise mostly dry to drizzly, highs in the 50s (a few 60 degree days), lows in the 40s (a couple of 32-33 degree nights early in the month). There's a bit of Osmocote in the mix, and I've used about a Tbsp of Miracle Gro per 2 gallon watering can to fertilize 3-4 times, or a Tbsp or so of fish fertilizer 2-3 times. It's been a week at most since I Miracle-Gro'ed, and I applied more today.

I first thought iron-deficient chlorosis but it seems that would be more of a yellow leaf with green veins, instead of just the new leaves coming in pale? I guess in the photo I see some spreading yellow with green veins coming in on some of the older leaves, though. Gah. I'm going to the farm supply store today, guess I'll see what they have for mineral and micronutrient supplements.
meyermike_1micha
14 years ago
I would take a guess it say your temps are still too cold for your plant to take up nutrients..The soil temp should at least be consistently in the 60's..

Al will lets us know for sure..

Even my citrus trees loose their green color in leaves when the temps are that cool..You should see what they look like...loll. I feed mine at every watering with a great fertilizer, and only when the temps are stable above the 60's on a consistent basis do my leaves begin to green up again..

Mike..:-)

Mike
meyermike_1micha
14 years ago
For Example..My trees outdoors in this unreliable weather the past month. Look at all the yellow showing up.I am use to it..They will green up once the end of the month comes, can't wait!

{{gwi:28429}}

{{gwi:28430}}

{{gwi:28431}}

These I just put outdoors from my green room which was always in the 70's and sunny..See how green they are..

{{gwi:28432}}

{{gwi:28433}}

{{gwi:28434}}

{{gwi:28435}}
tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
14 years ago
I think Mike is correct. The first thing I thought of when I saw the picture was fertilizer burn or ammonium toxicity, which is why I asked the questions about fertilizing habits and temperatures. You're over-fertilizing and the soil is too cold to be using organic and urea-based fertilizers (like FE and MG). The next time your plant needs water (or sooner) flush the soil thoroughly. Run lots of water through it to flush the fertilizer from the soil. Then tip the container at a 45* angle (drain hole down, if it's at the perimeter of the pot) to drain any excess water. Wait to fertilize until your mean temperature is above 55*.

FWIW - if you're using MG or other fertilizers that contain Fe, it's almost certain you'll never have an Fe deficiency because of an inadequate amount of Fe in the soil. It will be a pH induced deficiency and all that would be needed to correct is a little vinegar in your irrigation water each time you water.

It's up to you if you want to use the FE, but I can guarantee that you don't need it; and the amount of lime you used sounds like it's no problem - Mike correct again. ;o)

Al
alison_27
Original Author
14 years ago
Well, *phew* and *d'oh*! I feel like a schmuck for burning the poor things. It just feels so spring-like that I was expecting rapid growth from these little guys and was fertilizing accordingly!

I know you're not a fan of organic fertilizers in containers, it's thanks to you I use so much MG but I just can't help reaching for the smelly stuff now and again. ;)

Al's 5-1-1 and yellowing leaves? Help!

Comments (7)

tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)

meyermike_1micha

Related Discussions

alison_27
Original Author

meyermike_1micha

meyermike_1micha

tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)

alison_27
Original Author

COMPANY

BUSINESS SERVICES

GET HELP

CONNECT WITH US

Al's 5-1-1 and yellowing leaves? Help!

Comments (7)

tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)

meyermike_1micha

Related Discussions

alison_27Original Author

meyermike_1micha

meyermike_1micha

tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)

alison_27Original Author

COMPANY

BUSINESS SERVICES

GET HELP

CONNECT WITH US

alison_27
Original Author

alison_27
Original Author