I'm going to ask the money question mweider, the pond/bridge/white gravel landscape was obviously there when you bought the house so what kind of figure did you have in mind for changing it? What you have, to quote my friend laag, is an 800 pound gorilla or maybe several and you will never be happy trying to modify the appearance of a gorilla. What I see is an inappropriate pond with a nice bridge to nowhere in particular and a kiddies pool suggesting a different life going on and you say you want a veggie patch out there. So, how much did you allow to change this? I don't need to know the figure but...so as not to sound enigmatic: none of it is right and fixing just one part will not work.

inkognito - you are very correct. Some of the decisions the previous owners made with the house (both inside and out) were very bizzare (e.g. they ran water and electric into the middle of the deck, then cut a hole out all for a deck jacuzzi, but then they decided they didn't want a deck jacuzzi and put in a paper birch instead). I wholeheartedly agree that ideally we should redo the whole backyard. Unfortunately, we don't have the budget for that project. So, we are trying to make the best plan for the sub-optimal situation we are in. Of course we'd all like to design in a world without limitation, but that's not my backyard. So, I turn to you and ask, how can I best setup just the plot of land in question? Feel free to use the site plan I posted earlier as a basis for discussion.

If the pond and bridge stays, I would do the following. Take out the white stones, and the lumber edging around the white stones. Take out the big white blocks at the end of the bridge - unless they serve some useful purpose?

Take out a bit more of the grass, right to the deck. Make a nice step from the deck to the ground.

To make the bridge more meaningful, create a dry river bed, going from under the bridge, meandering either down the hill to the back fence, or towards the current pond. I would change the pond a bit so it looks like overflow might flow down this river bed and under the bridge. Kind of a dry water fall coming our of the pond.

Add a meandering path through the area, maybe over to the pond if you'd like.

Plant the area as discussed above with both flowers and vegtables. Don't plant in rows, or boxes. Plant in drifts as if they were flowers.

You bought a house that was owned by someone who approached the design of the landscape by deciding what s/he wanted and made them fit. I want a pond, oh and a bridge, and the bridge can go to the pond, and a stone wall, ...

The problem now is that you bought the place and you have activities that you want to do. That is a good thing, but the bad thing is that you are trying to do these within the framework of those things the other person did with nothing more in mind than having those things.

The bridge is only necessary because they created a reason to have it. You have a wasted area cut off by the bridge and the pond, and it is not working for the things you want to do.

Plan from the perspective of knowing what you want to do in terms of lifestyle. Then make a list of the things you need to have to be able to do those things (ie, badminton = flat lawn of a certain size, etc,..). After that, assess the property to see if you can make these activities happen. The biggest obstacle is the bridge in my opinion. It is controlling the whole area and actually looks rediculous on top of that. Right now you are planning around things that make no sense.

By working around the things the previous owner created you are essentially following his/her design which means that you are adopting the same thought process (what can I put in here?). You are letting the property control you rather than you controlling it.

If you can change that way of thinking, you can make it work well. If you can't or won't, you'll be stuck with it.

madtripper - thanks for the very constructive post and working within my requirements of not redoing the whole backyard!
Here is what I drew up based on your comments:
{{gwi:13875}}
Am I correct in my understanding that you suggest that there be no grass in the area at all and it should be totally planted? If so, how would I access the area to the SE of the dry driver bed since it is such a wide and deep bed? Also, the reason I like the SFG approach for the vegetables is that I have a serious animal problem in my yard. Keeping the vegetables in a square or rectangle allows my to easily protect the area. Do you see any way within your framework to use SFG for the vegetables or does that 'kill' the whole free flowing garden vision? If so, what would be the best approach if I had to have the vegetables in squares/rectangles?

For goodness sake--

just consider removing the bridge. Do it on paper and see how many possibilities will open up for you. This is free.

The bridge is a huge obstacle--adding a dry stream going no where to play it up will just make it more of an obstacle and more weird. The iron fence behind the pond has to go too.

Maybe use some of the railing as a support for the vegs as a humorous homage to mistakes of the past.

I am not a fan of ponds either, but this one doesn't look too bad--it's subtle enough except for the bathtub waterfall. I think you can work with it and make it very lovely.

Will you really feel good about the yard just plopping some vegs in there? I don't think so--a year or two later you'll wish you had taken out the bridge.

For raised veggie beds, how about some built-in planters along the outside of the deck, sort of as a "frame" to the deck, with steps coming down in between the planters at various spots? If the bridge were gone, you'd have a lot of deck circumference.

I guess you'll be stuck.

I'll admit I backed into this thread after reading wellspring's thoughts in another thread about the contrast of a homeowner's lack of objectivity regarding the elements of their own garden versus a designer's personal detachment from the dozens of designs they generate. And I have to think this thread and the design challenge it poses exemplifies this contrast perfectly.

I'm not sure why you think you can't change the entire backyard - demolition is pretty darn cheap (requiring only elbow grease and hauling the stuff away) and the project of rebuilding doesn't need to be accomplished instantaneously. Considering the possibilities the removal of all those disparate and ill-conceived elements would present is worth having even an empty yard for a season or two, save for the kids' wading pool and a few containers of veggies.

This is where the detachment of the design professional comes into play. Quite simply, you do not need to be limited or restricted by what already exists and making it work. Forget for a moment the realities of budget (which I totally understand) and the daunting amount of work that needs to be done and picture this garden exactly as YOU would like it - not the the former owner with questionable taste and methods and not with chopped up spaces and unmatching hardscapes and unattractive plantings, but the garden you imagine in your head. Then make it so! The freedom to make whatever changes you want is yours alone and you do not have to be limited by what already exists unless you want to be.

The expense involved does not have to be burdensome. There are materials already present that can be reused and plants can be acquired as time and budget permits. But look beyond just band-aiding what is already there. I doubt you will ever be satisfied with that approach and the results it generates.

I've looked at this thread a few times and found, as Miss Rumphius pointed out early, that the information provided is just too random to allow me to visualize the layout and the parameters of the project, not to mention how one moves around the property (where is the freakin' DOOR???) nor what one might want to do there. But thanks to the ongoing discussion I'm getting the idea of what's going on, thanks to the voices of dissent that have already chimed in and your responses to them.

Contrary to what you wrote in your opening post, it appears to me that you are not in fact "open to any and all suggestions." You want to adapt your wish for a vegetable garden to an incredibly constraining set of design elements and you are not open to changing those constraints. That is absolutely your privilege - but in choosing that assignment for yourself, you cannot expect others to enthusiastically join in to planning the shape of a vegetable garden in this setting.

What happens in situations like this on a forum is that the original poster is basically left to solve their problem on their own, because they are willfully excluding and rejecting all the logical and good solutions - choosing constraints that could easily be remedied.

If this were my yard I too might choose for some reason to keep the pond, or the bridge, or those concrete blocks, or that wood edging. But what comes with those things is by default an awkward and bizarre looking yard, especially if you're going to now add the elements YOU want to the ones the previous homeowner wanted. The answer to "how do I make this look great" is that you just can't - if you keep all that stuff.

I've enjoyed reading this thread, and hearing the different view points on a space like this. I'm no pro, but I hope my impressions will help.

The first thing I see when I look at this space on a whole is that it is too busy and confusing...no continuity. If you don't mind grass, I would pull out all the edging that holds the small rocks, take out the rocks and use lawn to create continuity throughout the yard and this space. I feel like its too small to be broken up into smaller spaces.

Secondly, I think the pond is wonderful! I agree with harleysilo though, that some rocks stacked around where the spout is would help it look more natural. The hedge behind it (is that juniper?) is also a nice effect.

Thirdly, you need something as high as the deck to cross over to the same height as the stone patio on the other side, right? If you took out the bridge you would have to cross the ravine to get to this area. Why not down size the bridge into a simple, level, board walk that matches the existing decking? This would open things up a bit more, and still maintain access. I don't think its high enough to need any railing. It seems like a fun feature for kids to play around and I would hesitate to remove it completely (I'm assuming you have kids if you have a wading pool, but then again my sister has one for her Labrador :^)). I would continue the grass under it to connect it to the yard on the other side and increase the overall sense of continuity( I think I glimpsed grass on the other side already?) This would keep it kid friendly as well.

Is the black iron railing along the pond for safety or asthetics? If its for asthetics, it seems out of place and unfinnished.

I can now visualize the area in simpler terms and one can plan the beds and pathways according to sun and traffic use. For pathways I'd use flagstone to match the stone used in the pond walls and it would also go with the cottagey feel others have suggested for plantings. If you need to make the beds smaller for access, how about putting another flagstone pathway meandering through the area to split them up. As long as one path takes you to the pond the others can be used to create access to the beds. I think easy access to your veggies should be a priority.

I also agree with the suggestion to keep your beds loose and curvey, along the yard borders as well as in the centre, because your yard and other structures seem to create an odd shaped space where geometrical beds would not be pleasing to the eye.

Check out the potager forum for ideas on integrating veggies and flowers. They have some great photos over there.

I hope I haven't added to the confusion, and this helps rather than hinders you! I would also love to see some pics once you're get going on the project. Good Luck!

The bridge must be removed. I don't think you will use the patio that appears to be built of flagstone and peagravel at the end of the bridge anyways, most likely anyone wishing to view the pond will walk right up to the nearest edge of it and peer into it. I build a couple of stairs off of the end of you raised deck area where the bridge connects.

The large juinper looks great behind the pond. The whit blocks to walk from bridge to pond are the most hideous things I've seen.

You could re-use the flagstone that appears to be up by the pond to create a pathway through the yard to view the pond, like i built at my old house.

{{gwi:13876}}

Which connected to the small patio...

{{gwi:13877}}

Could you take and host and post some more pics if you are still interested in getting ideas? Thanks...

I have a moment now, so I'll respond to some of the recent posts:

gardengal48 - your statement "Considering the possibilities the removal of all those disparate and ill-conceived elements would present is worth having even an empty yard for a season or two" is quite subjective and I disagree - for me, it is not worth having an empty yard for a season or two - we may be only living in this house for another 4 or 5 years so losing half that time is not worthwhile.

karinl - please let me know what other info I can provide to help - the reason I didn't give a whole property view previously was to try and avoid people redesigning the whole backyard; I see that you may need to see what else is going on, even if just to redesign this space, so let me know what questions I can answer. Also, you said: "The answer to "how do I make this look great" is that you just can't"; perhaps I should rephrase again - how can I make this area look as good as possible. Certainly you must agree that it can be ugly (as it is currently) and there are ways to make it nicer (what I'm looking for).

xtreme_gardener - thank you so much for your suggestions. Really, all of them are excellent! The fence is there as a protection against kids falling into the pond. The one constraint I have to the cottage garden idea is that we have an animal problem as I mentioned above. Leaving the vegetables in beds unprotected is going to result in no vegetables I fear. I will try to incorporate the vegetable squares inside a cottage garden perhaps...

harleysilo - thanks for the suggestions and pics - I will post some more pics when there is an opportunity (right now we have snow flurries!)

To all - the comment that I am not open to all suggestions because I am asking to work within this confined space is technically true, but not really relavent. Any reasonable designer has constraints from the customer - you may just not realize them. As an example, many of you seem to be annoyed I won't listen to suggestions to redesign the whole backyard, but why stop there - why not suggest I move to a different house on a different lot altogether that has a more level yard? If you can accept that I am stuck with this lot for my backyard as a design constraint, you should also be able to accept that the other part of my backyard is off limits as a design constraint as well.

Again, the question on the table is, how can I design just this area to meet my requirements and make it look as nice as possible?

Pretend for a moment you are sitting at the table at the end of your deck looking at the pond. It's a nice spot to be sitting in your backyard. Imagine it's not SNOWING, you're sipping iced tea with a sprig of mint. You are gazing out in the direction of your pond, but are slightly frustrated because you can hear the water gurgleing but just can't quite see it beacause some of your vegetables in your new raised beds are blocking your view. Annoyed you rise, walk over the foot bridge to the shaded distant patio and have a moment to check on the bullfrog....

Now imagine your back sitting at your table except this time you are able to not only look directly at the pond and the nice pathway to it, but look slightly to your left and admire your beautiful raised beds in the location where once sat the golden gate bridge. The stone or is it concrete pavers from the distant patio were recycled and now provide a clean intersecting walkway through your beds. A picnic table resides in the shade of the giant tree overlooking the pond....

Sorry not much effort put into drawing but you get the idea i'm sure....
{{gwi:13878}}

I don't know, but it begins to sound as though you've moved past design challenge. I'm hearing that the following priorities are important to you:

1. Growing vegetables.
2. Growing them in this very specific area.
3. Using raised beds in rectangles or squares because of an "animal problem".
4. Strong preference not to change any other feature in the landscape, although some room to reconsider paths?
5. As "nice" as possible given the constraints.

If the vegies are the top priority, then lay aside attractiveness for a moment. Neat and tidy may be the best you can hope for.

But here are some other questions:

What material will be used for raised beds? I went back to look and couldn't find that info. Raised doesn't have to mean raised by much--a few inches can do it or raised can mean much higher. Sitting level is nice.

I can't think what animals you are hoping to prevent. Voles love raised beds. Squirrels, too. My dog respects my raised beds, but then she's highly trained.

Also, raised beds can be very expensive to fill. It's recommended that prep be done in the fall as the soil will settle significantly. My new raised bed was filled last fall. Snow and rain did their work and lowered the level by 5 or 6 inches.

As far as layoutÂKeep it simple. I'm still pretty unclear about the dimensions, but neither 10' x 14' nor 19' x 14' is big. Adequate for growing a few vegies, but not huge. The length of the raised bed can be as long as you likeÂsay, 2 rows of 4' x 14'. Sunlight and the height of plants used will determine orientation. You might try an H-shape or U-shape Again, the SQ and potager forums can help with these things. Keep in mind that the material used for building the bed will also add inches.

SoÂsunlight, veggie height & choices, raised bed construction may pretty much pre-determine what you doÂAnd you may find that it takes 2 to 3 seasons to learn all the SQF tricks.

Still, it's all an adventure.

Wellspring

Are you needing to keep out pets, like a fence around your veggies?

harelysilo - your drawing is incredibly accurate for not having even seen the other part of the yard! Two differences - where you have the raised beds is a swingset (on the other side of the bridge currently) and the shade from the big tree extends all the way to the deck. I very much appreciate the drawing and I'll try to get more pictures up so you can see the yard as a whole, although at the moment it is covered in 2" of snow :(.

wellspring - The plan for the raised vegetable beds is to make them from pressure treated (not with chemicals) 2x6. Then I would surround them with some sort of fencing (either green screen or something else more attractive then chicken wire). That should keep out racoons, chipmunks, rabbits, etc.
As far as cost, it would seem all I need is a truckload of good soil and then I'd till it in with what is existing (both for the vegetable beds and the flower beds).

Thanks for your help! I am continuing to learn alot from all of your good ideas!

Well that won't keep out the racoons or chipmunks. It's difficult to work in a fenced in raised bed, unless the fence stands off the bed by 3' at least, I know I have one pictured below.

So the only area with decent sun is in between the pond and deck, correct?

You could get crazy and extend your deck to the pond, and then cut sections out of your existing deck closer to the house and build raised beds in the middle of your deck.....

Here is a link that might be useful: {{gwi:13856}}

Priority no. 6

6. Materials have already been determined. 2" x 6" and "fencing".

No wonder it has to be rectangles and squares. Are the boards already pre-cut, too?

Great picture Harley! I am hoping that using the SFG technique for my vegetable garden will allow me access to what is inside without actually putting a path inside the fence as you have. If the mesh is small enough then it should keep out the chipmunks (and if not, I'll use traps for them). I'm still working on the engineering of the fencing scheme (maybe for another thread...), but whatever the case, it will be easier to defend a square/rectangular bed of vegetables then freeform beds of mixed vegetables/perrennials.
Unfortunately, you are correct that the only area with decent sun in my backyard is what I highlighted in yellow on my site plan (BTW I have attached some new plans trying to use some ideas you guys gave me).
While the idea of extending the deck is a good one, I think it will bring the cost of this project to a whole new level. :)

Wellspring - the materials have not already been determined - I am open to other suggestions. Also your list of "my constraints" is somewhat construed - growing the vegetables here is determined by the sun in my yard. Also, I'm open to toehr solutions for the animal problem if you have them. To me, fencing seems like the only effective method. The only thing I'm being overly rigid in is not redesigning the whole backyard.

{{gwi:13879}}

{{gwi:13880}}

mwieder: I saw your rant on the other thread. I am sorry if you get upset if people try to help you out. Somewhere I recall reading "..the whole flat area can be viewed as a canvas for the project. I'm open to any and all suggestions." Maybe I am mistaken.

I happen to agree with gardengal's idea that your backyard is made of "disparate and ill-conceived elements". There seem to be a lot of other people that agree with this. Adding yet another disparate element will not improve the appearance, especially square wooden boxes surrounded by fences. (I do have to wonder if you really have that big of a problem with racoons, chipmunks, and rabbits to warrant fences)

My input is to keep the deck and the pond, and remove the bridge and the black fence. With your latest drawings I don't understand you will access your veggies and the paths without having to climb over your patio furniture.

- Brent

Hi brent - thanks for the input. "I am sorry if you get upset if people try to help you out." - I'm not upset; I'm pretty sure I try and thank everyone for their time. I know no one has to help me as a noob and I appreciate everyone's efforts in doing so. "..the whole flat area can be viewed as a canvas for the project. - this is true - I did not say "the whole backyard can be..." just the flat area in the site plan.

I also am not sure how to respond to this: "(I do have to wonder if you really have that big of a problem with racoons, chipmunks, and rabbits to warrant fences)" If I'm saying that I do, then why do you have to winder about it? How shall I prove it to you?

The black fence needs to stay for safety reasons - since the land there is rasied, there is nothing stopping my kids from falling into the pond, as opposed to the area in the photos where the side of the pond is rasied.

There is a step down off the deck which allows access to the path and the veggies.

How do you suggest I incorporate veggies into this area?

Hi, me again. If you only want to grow veggies and do not care how it looks, the Landscape Design Forum folks will continue to frustrate you with concerns for aesthetics. Maybe you will get answers more suited to your desires on the Vegetable Garden Forum. On the Design forum, contributors, especially the trained professionals, will have a hard time isolating the vegetable garden idea from the garden as a whole, as that is contrary to everything they've studied, learned, and practiced. I've never spent any time on the Veggie Forum, but I have to believe there are some very experienced backyard farmers over there, totally focused on growing veggies.

I will add only one more thing -- kill all the weeds now. (Ok, as soon as the snow melts.) Then wait a few weeks and kill them again. Even if you keep your gravel for paths around your raised fenced beds, you won't want the weed seeds floating into your veggies.

I actually do believe you have all those critters. Ponds are a powerful attraction for wildlife. A tiny pot fountain in my yard is regularly assaulted by critters in search of fish, even though there are no fish in the pot. I have seen raccoons, rabbits (usually escaped pets), skunks, possums, and foxes in my garden, and I am not in the country.

I wish you well with your project, and again, would like to see how it all works out when you are done.

catkim - I guess I'm stuck between two forums - I don't want a redesign of my whole backyard, but I also want to put in more then just vegetable beds. I thought here would be a better place to discuss it since combining walkways, perennial beds and vegetable beds requires more design expertise then just how to setup the vegetable garden. I probably will turn to the vegetable garden forum to discuss how to best fence off the vegetable garden if I don't get that info here. But I do understand that most here are used to landscaping the whole yard and that is causing the disconnect.
I do hope to provide some pictures of the whole backyard and if there are some suggestions that I can fit into my budget for this project I certainly will consider them. For those of you that have and continue to provide constructive help to the space in question I am very grateful. The designs I am coming up with now look much nicer to me then just sticking a vegetable garden in the middle of a grassy area.

I would like some critique of the plans I have posted with some alternate suggestions - (aside from the bridge/other parts of the yard). I am struggling balancing the need for access to the vegetable beds with not having them seem seperate from the rest of the space. Here is my latest attempt:

{{gwi:13881}}

I moved the step off the deck to the east, and that gives a nice angle from the deck to the pond as a walkway. It also allows the walkway to parallel a dry river bed as madtripper suggested above. I was hoping it ties together with the angle of the vegetables on the other side, which follow the angled part of the deck. Let me know what you think.
thanks!

I wonder about the animal issue just because I have grown veggies in Michigan, Washington and Virginia and I have never had an issue with those animals despite having them around. Maybe it is the types of veggies that I have grown...tomatoes, peppers, squash and melons.

"How do you suggest I incorporate veggies into this area?"

I would nix the idea of adding the square boxes...they are functional but will just add to the visual clutter. While most of my veggie beds have been more functional than pretty, I have seen enough attractive gardens to know that it is possible. I would try to connect the deck with the pond and give somebody a reason to wonder over there. Getting rid of the bridge would open up more possibilities but here is a rough sketch. I would also consider improving the wall around the pond so that somebody could sit on the edge.

- Brent

I like that design best because you maintain a line of sight from the deck to the pond, if you block the pond with tall veggies I think you wouldn't be pleased in the middle of summer. I don't quite see the point in keeping the dry river bed. My only suggestion would be to move the veggies to the right and parallel to the bridge (i know they would be in the way of your walking space from the front of the house to the pond) but how often do you use that space now. The more of the pea gravel area between the pond and deck you can keep open the better in my humble opinion.

Since I can't edit my above post, brett posted a picture showing the same suggestion, move the veggies to the right edge of that flat space. Oh and I cannot resist but demo the bridge;) Good luck!

OK, I spent a few hours and did the whole backyard with Visio (if anyone wants the vsd file for editing, let me know). It's not as to scale as the area I will be working on, but it's accurate enough to get the lay of the land. It will take a few second to load probably. I will describe it so you know what you are looking at below. The house wraps the deck on the North and East side. 4 rooms in the house have access to the deck via glass doors (they are labeled Window/Door). The door labeled "Main Window/Door" is the one we use 90% of the time to go onto the deck. The one labeled "Great Room" is the best view of the pond (as you can see anything to the west of that won't block line of sight to the pond). The deck is tiered so that as you come out you are level with the door, but then there is a step up to get onto the main deck. There is a cutout in the middle of the deck for a paper birch that casts shade over the much of the right half of the deck. There is a trellice on the West of the deck that has clematis and honeysuckle growing on it. Yard access to the deck is currently from the two locations marked with arrows and the steps flanking the bridge. The yard is split in 2 horizontally with a retaining wall and the land on top of the retaining wall is about 3 feet taller then the land where the swingset is. The willow at the back of the property is the tallest tree in the city and casts shade over almost the entire backyard up to the perennial bed at the south edge of the deck and the pond area in the west. The house is cutoff in the diagram but extends straight in both the east and north directions. There is a circular flower bed surrounding the willow, and some shrubs behind the wooden bench/pond.

{{gwi:13882}}

brent and harley - thanks for the input; my question is, how do I fend off the animals if I put the vegetables in standard garden beds? Also, I'm going to need to keep some walkway from the front of the house through to the pond. In your drawing, is the path grass or pavers?

OK folks, now you have the whole backyard. Please bear in mind that we were originally expecting to pay for a load of dirt and edging so if you propose something which will cost us $$$ we're not going to be able to do it (as beautiful as it may be). Certainly, removal of the bridge doesn't cost anything, but we will then need a way to get from the lower part of the yard to the upper part.

Thanks for all your time! Sitting here in the snow, I can't wait to get started!

Take a close look under the bridge at the far end. In the photos, it looks like there are cement footers under there that are reasonably well placed for steps. Wouldn't surprise me if they *were* steps that predate the bridge.

About the animal problem, just what evidence of this have you seen? We are skeptical because a) chipmunks rarely cause problems in vegetable beds and b) raccoons (and chipmunks) can climb anything remotely like a wire fence so c) if the purpose is to control rabbits, you are looking at something short but substantial. Rabbit fencing has to be buried underground to work. They'll burrow under something that stops at ground level. It can be a non-trivial engineering problem to keep them out. Gates in particular can be nasty.

So if you really feel the vegetables have to be fenced in, it is going to be much easier to fence in a fairly large area, then grow the plants however inside the fencing.

Another relatively random thought is what exactly is the patio on the upper level made of? If it's dry laid flagstone, that stuff is both portable and useful. Even mortared flagstone isn't terrible to get up. Once you have it, it can be paths, it can be stepping stones, it can be steps (if stable enough), it can be statuary bases. It can even be a patio. Best of all, the price is right.

My two cents regarding your animal issues. If you have raccoons, a simple fence will not solve the problem. I know this from experience. The only way we can keep raccoons out of our vegetables is a triple wire electric fence combined with a two foot high mesh fence. Neither alone will do the trick.

OK, since many seem to be questioning the extent of the animal problem, I have seen all of the following in the yard frequently:
rabbits, raccoons, chipmunks, squirrels, opossum, skunks and deer.

I have witnesed on several occasions the deer and rabbits eating my plants/vegetables (I grew some on containers the last few years). In fact, both were seen there in the past 3 days munching (the deer were at it today despite the snow)

My idea for defence (I'm open to alternatives) is to have a low fence that won't let animals in (a raised walled bed will help with burring under the fence as well) and then a screen over the top (on hinges?) at a reasonable height to keep the deer out. I know several people in the neighborhood who employ some version of this and it is effective. I'd love to put up a deer fence around my property but the city won't allow it.

Now that I've posted the whole backyard layout, we can widen the scope from what material I will use for the vegetable fence to the general layout.

The upper level by the pond is made of flagstone, sitting on top of a base so that they sit flat, since the yard slopes lower by the pond. I believe the base is made of cinderblocks.

The nicer viewpoint for the pond is on that flagstone area since it is raised above the pond level and you can easily see inside the pond from there. Removing the flagstone and cinderblock and letting that area slope down to the pond would remove that higher vantage point.

I am not questioning the problem, I am simply telling you the only solution that worked for us.

Rabbits are easy, a short fence (so long as it is ALL the way down to the ground so they can't get under) will keep them out. Chipmunks and squirrels have never bothered my veggies, so I wouldn't worry about them. We do have skunks, I do not know if they try to get the veggies or not but our raccoon solution would keep them out also.

Deer and raccoons have been a problem for us with our vegetables. To keep deer from jumping, you need a six foot high fence. An electric fence also works. As I said, the electric fence was not, for us, sufficient to keep the raccoons out, we had to add the mesh fence as well.

It probably depends a bit on what you are growing. We grow corn and both deer and raccoons love corn. Perhaps they will be less trouble without corn, but I don't know that.

I am only telling you my experiences with keeping animals out of the vegetables.

Aren't you just being stubborn mwieder? You don't have the right conditions for growing vegetables let's face it. Scroll back to laceyveil's post and try that. Her suggestion is totally practical and doesn't venture into the aesthetic field that 'design' involves. On another thread here there is reference to designing a garden around one central idea and from what you say growing vegetables is yours. The problem is that you inherited a yard from a person with a different almost opposing idea and you stubbornly stick to the notion that you can combine them. If you were open to it I would ask why you are fixated on growing vegetables in that small shady area that is attacked by every feral creature in North America and is framed by a wooden bridge an iron fence a pond.

inkognito -
"If you were open to it I would ask why you are fixated on growing vegetables in that small shady area that is attacked by every feral creature in North America and is framed by a wooden bridge an iron fence a pond."
Because that's the only area in my yard that gets full sun. For me the #1 priority is not the most beutiful garden in the world - it's having the things that I want (in this case vegetables) the most beautiful way possible. Previously you didn't like being restrained to just that area of my backyard. Now that I have exposed the whole backyard, you're unhappy, with the animal situation. The yard is what it is - I'm not moving. If you can help me design something that will incorporate vegetable gardening, like others have, then I would appreciate it. If not, please stop telling me how awful my backyard is for what I want to do.

I've gone back to this thread, oh maybe a dozen times. No theory here, but...

What exactly are those concrete bunkers at the end of the bridge? One looks to be a planter, but with the hoses, etc. are they covering some connectors or water works for the pond? Or simply piled up pavers?

Since the only negotiable element here is the board bordered bed of white rocks, get rid of that first. No second; first, I'd get the electric aqua kiddie pool out of sight for the time being so your eye doesn't get hung up on it no matter which way you look. Not wanting to obscure the sight line to the pond, could a gently curving, wider toward the concrete bunkers, veggie garden be cut in along side the bridge? I'm sure you're not contemplating rows of corn, but the bridge could be used as supports for any tall growing plants and the plants would hide the gap underneath the bridge. Also, your deck looks like it has ample room to accommodate growing veggies in containers.

Is the upright yew(?) at the edge of the deck doing well? If not, take it out and replace it with a group of smaller shrubs to define the deck edge.

I think the pond is fine, there might be some interesting aquatics in there. Maybe another juniper to fill the gap up top and tie the black fence into the background. I'd be tempted to put some hostas around the pond's base - their mounding habit would really soften the line where stone meets ground.

If this were my forever house and the bridge was an absolute necessity in getting from point A to point B, I'd pool my interest and dividends, call in an expert, and retrofit the bridge to an arbor.

Hi duluth - thanks for the input!
I believe the concrete blocks on the right of the bridge by the pond were put there to try and visually connect the retaining wall that exists on the other side of the bridge. If you all think it best, I can certainly remove them.
The problem with the veggie garden going against the bridge is the shade - if you see in the picture I put a yellow rectange where there is full sun. The site line to the pond should be OK with everything except tomatoes and other tall plants since the deck/house and pond are raised and the vegetable garden is in the valley between them. Additionally, as long as some of the vegetable garden is to the right of the edge of the deck (if it extended towards the pond) I can put the tall veggies there.
I agree with planting something at part of the lower base of the pond to soften the edge.
The bridge is not a necessity, it's just there now and solves the problem of getting from the raised deck to the raised area on the other side. I'm open to removing it if it helps as part of some greater solution that aesthetically facilitates the vegetable garden.

Thank you all for taking on my yard as a forum project - hopefully we can get a concrete plan and then I'll keep you all posted with pictures once we get going!

Those that were asking for a diagram of the whole backyard - it's about 8 or 9 posts up with a description. Let me know your suggestions for how best to incorporate a protected vegetable garden and landscape the area to the right of the bridge.
thanks!

I would fence off whatever part of the area has enough sun to grow vegetables, add a little gate for access, and grow flowers around the perimeter, either inside or outside the fence.

Plant directly into well-amended soil or add raised beds for the veggies. If you add plenty of composted manure and till it in when the soil is neither too wet nor too dry, you should be able to grow in the native soil without bringing soil in. Remove the stones first.

Because you have shade in the area that represents the sightline to the pond, more or less, it shouldn't interfere with your enjoyment of the pond.

The concrete planters and what look like concrete blocks do absolutely nothing for your landscape. Unless you want to do more extensive rethinking of the existing elements, ie. the bridge, pond, fence section, why not just put in the garden and be done with it.

Sometimes the most obvious utilitarian solution to a problem is the best one, and a well tended vegetable garden can be pleasant to look at even if it's not integrated into a more comprehensive plan.

"Let me know your suggestions for how best to incorporate a protected vegetable garden and landscape the area to the right of the bridge." What you do is plant cabbage (a vegetable) in a box 18 inches square and oriented at 45 degrees to the bridge that you should paint tomato red the same as the veggie box. This cabbage (I suggest just the one) should be the focal point to distract from the awfulness of the rest of the garden and should be allowed to go to seed (bigger you see). You should keep a couple of cabbages (perhaps store bought) on the patio in case critters eat the special one that was only there to be looked at anyway.

The whole backyard site diagram I posted above (now about 11 posts above) was meant to allow those of you who felt restrained by my initial request of redesigning just the side of the bridge to view the whole yard and make your suggestions based on the bigger picture. Many suggested removing the bridge, so let's say we do that, please now suggest how I should setup the area?
thanks for your help!

saypoint - perhaps your right and there is no way to integrate the vegetable garden with the rest of the area. What do you suggest I do with the remained of the space to the right of the bridge - if I remove the bridge do I just plant grass up until the large vegetable garden area? Do I add flower beds lining the deck and pond? Should I move the step?

I say you remove the bridge. Plant the entire area where the bridge was and the gravel is in grass. Buld some nice containers out of wood to plant some vegetables on your deck. build some more containers at the end of your deck towards the pond that actually rest on the ground, one on either side of the new stairs you build to access the new grass and path to the pond. Use the material that the patio overlooking the pond is made out of to make a path to the pond. Plant grass in the area overlooking the pond, and put a bench or something there. Oh, and haul away the white block looking things leading to the pond from the bridge. And post a pic of the whole back yard, you said you had a swingset right, maybe that could go over above the pond, or in the sunny area if you aren't putting veggies there.

I personally think this could be a very beautiful area with alot of work of course, because to be honest it is a mess...the whole curves and lines etc... is just weird. First of all i would forget a vegetable garden there. Then what i would do is take all those land scaping timbers and have a big marshmallow roast :). Then i would somehow make a creek running under that bridge to the pond with little pebbles lining the creek, others may be able to help with that idea because without seeing further down the deck area, i cant think of a stopping point as to where the creek would end or how to go about keeping water flowing in it, i do know there are people here that can think of something very economical. Then i would jerk those ugly shrubs out around the waterfall and plant some nice rounded bushes, with hosta's, maybe a couple ornamental grasses etc... or at least trim them up considerably where they look better, although i like the first idea better. Like someone said amend that soil in that area first, i would amend the area that is around the pond and extending down the creek wide enough to plant a flower garden in. Then i would tear out all those flower boxes at the base of the bridge and put a gate matching the rod iron short amount of fencing you got there and then extend that fencing completely around to meet the corner of the deck. Add stepping stones (I would use creek rock like is laid around your pond) from the gate to maybe a bench in the corner and to the deck to tie it all in. Plant whatever you want in the areas with plenty of perennials and leave space to add beautiful annuals each year and mulch well. I would personally plant a big fat hosta where that square is cut in your deck just after the bridge and where all those shrubs to the left in the picture are i would pull those out and add a flower bed there with maybe a area in the middle to exit off the deck, i think a couple creek rock would be fine there as well. I would also take up all those concrete pavers and add the creek rock there as well with some bench seating at the end as well with some flowers on both sides to add interest to that area...you could even do potted plants down that area. Stain the bridge and the deck and walahhh, lol i know sounds like a ton of work and money...but maybe in stages. Alot of it could be done very cost effective. Anyway that is just what popped into my head, even though it is not always screwed on right lol. Probably not even the question asked but i just pictured it and could not resist putting it down, actually it says to view it as a blank canvas and minus the vegetable garden i did :).

If you want a space to grow flowers in that area, sure, by all means put in a bed near the deck. If not, grass is OK, too. It really comes down to what you want to use the area for. The pond and vegetable garden are going to be difficult to integrate into a harmonious whole unless you do something to tie them together, either by repeating a material or shape. If you want the beds raised, can you make them out of the same stone as the pond? Maybe if you make the veggie garden area a round or half-round with a similar radius as the pond, to echo the shape of the pond, and make the "negative space" that is created by these shapes a different surface, either grass or paving or gravel? Or add another arc-shaped area for a small flower bed? The arcs could overlap in places. The veggie garden could have an outer border of a single edging plant, whether annual or perennial or small tidy shrub to define the shape, with the veggies planted within?

Just throwing out ideas here, you really have to play with them both on paper and on the ground.

Below is a new attempt with your suggestions incorporated.
harley - I'm going to think about how to incorporate the vegetables into the decking - that's an interesting idea; I'll have to see if there is enough room that is in sun to make it happen. Great idea with using the pond edging for a path! I'll try to get more pictures when the snow melts :(
maddox - thanks for the free flowing ideas. Having a working creek going under the bridge will be quite difficult I believe (although it would look awesome!). I don't mind the bushes around the waterfall, I think they give a decent natural effect. The big rectangle in the deck containes a 20' paper birch. I don't think it's coming out so easily :).
saypoint - interesting idea of making the beds out of the pond material. How would I do that so the soil doesn't leak out through the cracks in the sides? Do I use a liner like in the pond? I don't want to restrict the root growth. Great ideas about the shaping of the beds - I'm not sure I can visualize (or diagram) how to make it happen while still having a walkway.

This plan removes the bridge, the retaining wall stones by the bridge (and obviously the pebbles and the railroad ties) and adds a bed lining the deck edge and a bed lining the pond edge. The path from deck to pond would be out of the flagstone the pond is built with. I thought about turning the vegetable boxes to meet the angled edge of the deck and moving the step over to the stright deck edge (or removing it altogether) but this seemed better somehow. Thoughts?
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Update:
Thanks to all your input, we know have our "final" plan (as final as any plan is before it's actually carried out). Specifically, harleysilo had the great suggestion (and a few others had similair ideas) to incorporate the vegetables into the deck instead of on the ground. I took some more accurate measurements of the deck and we have the plan you see below. That in neon green will be new installations. The white stones and railroad ties will be removed and replaced with the beds and grass outlines in the plan. The bridge is still up for a family discussion, but the plan can easily be modified to add/remove it. The vegetables will be plants in wooden boxes painted to match the decking and using the SFG technique in 6" of soil. The other huge benefit of doing it this way, is that it should significantly cut down, if not eliminate, the deer/rabbit problems since I've never seen them on the deck (and I grew vegetables in pots on the deck last year without losing any). Thanks all for your help - no way would we have come up with this without you!
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Post Pics when done!

I wanted to thank those of you who were helpful in advising my backyard re-design. I am attaching pictures of the finished product.
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Just to explain a little, we implemented something similar to the last diagram above, except we kept the step down from the deck on the angled corner and put a bed to the left of it. Vegetables are grown on the deck in the boxes pictured using SFG techniques.

Wow! Quite the transformation. Congrats!

Very nice! You did an awesome job!!!

Holy cow it looks very good! Look like it took a lot of hard work, I know you are very proud! The new stone walls blend in perfectly, they look like they are originally very well done!

Kelly, sc and harley, thanks very much for the compliments - I am ecstatic with how it turned out.
harley - a special thanks to you for sticking with the advice and coming up with great suggestions.
To fill the beds I used about 50 different zone 5 hardy perennials, mostly newer named varieties that I selected for their foliage (although I did allow myself a few daylilies and iris).